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Diving Safety, Accidents and Incidents Post here to discuss accidents, incidents, ideas, gear, or anything else to improve spearfishing safety. Memorials and condolences threads should be placed in that separate forum.

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Old 07-30-2013, 08:07 AM   #46
Lone Star Spearo
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Freedive Spearfishing Safety

Update:
I spoke with Michael's mother last night, they have suspended the recovery efforts until Thursday due to incoming bad weather.

It was a tough conversation to hold, I could feel the hurt, pain and agony thru the telephone.

Aloha,
Chad
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:39 AM   #47
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Freedive Spearfishing Safety

First, I don't believe we know what happened yet so this is all speculation, but i do believe their is a certain amount of truth to Jeremy's words on safety. At the same time his fast car analogy is spot on (except drifting, judges are for dancing bro) with the fact that people push the limits of reasonable safety every day. Sky diving, cave diving, rock climbing, road RACING, driving on I-4... All of these things can and do kill but people wont stop because its what they/we chose to do.

Its hard for parties with different opinions to agree, sometimes its impossible.

Does the end justify the means? The old question has somber relevance all too often, ask three people and you'll get three answers. To someone who puts the weight with means the end is irrelevant, to the next guy with weight on end the means is irrelevant. Irreconcilable difference of opinion, plain and simple.

Ive read some very compelling arguments for both sides of the "performance" based training coin, and as with most things whats good for some wont be good for others. One good instructor doesn't make the next one good, one persons limits are not the same as the next guys. There is no right answer here, what your saying is not wrong Jeremy but people are going to push the limits so training based on such should exist. In the same breath, do i think instructors oversell themselves as the end all, cant get around it, masters of freediving? Hell yes i do but i feel the same about scuba instructors, I'm skeptical of anyone who tells me the only way to do something is to pay me 300 dollars. They have a direct monetary gain from pushing their classes, capitalism baby, love it or leave it. We live in a "free" (for now) country and freedom to take risk is part of the package.

I think we all know the risks, we all know when we step a lil too close to the edge. Diving without a buddy is something most guys do, maybe this will cross my mind before i put a leg up solo next time.

RIP brother.
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Old 07-30-2013, 01:44 PM   #48
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Freedive Spearfishing Safety

Jeremy - I totally respect you and your reply to my post. I agree with the vast majority of what you said. However, I do not know who you were listening to from the "performance" free diving instructor crowd, but if as you said:

"much was made of ignoring the urge to surface, and staying down past the contractions and other signs that your body wants air. Passing out/samba was explicitly discussed as a routine part of this type of diving and training and "not a big deal".

then that was sure different than what we were taught in the AIDA class. We were taught that in spearfishing that we should be diving at only 50% of our breath hold capacity, and that if you had a contraction before you returned to the surface, you were staying down too long.

Passing out and samba were described as a failure, not as routine, and they were not treated "as no big deal" but instead as something to be avoided at all costs.

I do not think my dive profile is going to change a lot as a result of taking the class. But my technique will be vastly improved, and my margin of safety will be much higher as a result.

Like you said - come up at the first urge to breathe.
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Old 07-30-2013, 06:28 PM   #49
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Freedive Spearfishing Safety

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Originally Posted by North Star View Post
Jeremy - I totally respect you and your reply to my post. I agree with the vast majority of what you said. However, I do not know who you were listening to from the "performance" free diving instructor crowd, but if as you said:

"much was made of ignoring the urge to surface, and staying down past the contractions and other signs that your body wants air. Passing out/samba was explicitly discussed as a routine part of this type of diving and training and "not a big deal".

then that was sure different than what we were taught in the AIDA class. We were taught that in spearfishing that we should be diving at only 50% of our breath hold capacity, and that if you had a contraction before you returned to the surface, you were staying down too long.

Passing out and samba were described as a failure, not as routine, and they were not treated "as no big deal" but instead as something to be avoided at all costs.

I do not think my dive profile is going to change a lot as a result of taking the class. But my technique will be vastly improved, and my margin of safety will be much higher as a result.

Like you said - come up at the first urge to breathe.

I agree. After taking a FII course, I don't believe that my dive times have changed much at all. My level of comfort and relaxation has increased, so my margin of safety is higher. About 45 to 75 seconds is sufficient for the kind of hunting I do.

Samba and blackout certainly are not OK, especially in the conditions we hunt in.

We have seen far too many of this kind of thread. I'm not sure what the answer is. I've always thought that it was time to reconsider your hobbies when you start compiling a list of old, dead buddies. I don't know.

It may take a few weeks or months before we have good answers as to what went wrong.
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Old 07-30-2013, 11:12 PM   #50
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Freedive Spearfishing Safety

This is from Michael's mother, Marissa
"Dear SB Members,

I am Outdoor Catholic's mom. My name is Marissa. Our family would like to thank you for the many posts about Michael. It gives us all great comfort that Michael provided valuable information to many of you. It also warms our heart that some of you had the opportunity to meet Michael and dive with him. Diving was certainly one of Michael's passion, but I can tell you his greatest passion was his Lord, his wife Annemarie and his son Isaac. I feel so blessed to have such a wonderful son who then gave me another daughter and beautiful grandson. While we do not know what happened, I can tell you that in my heart of hearts I know that Michael was trying to be safe. He would never do anything that would harm his wife and son. I can also tell you that Michael died in grace and is in the arms of Jesus. While we miss him terribly, we were blessed by him over the last 28 years. Michael has 2 brothers and one sister. He was the oldest of 4 children and looks just like his 2 brothers. He not only was a wonderful son to both me and his dad, but he was such a loving brother too. We pray they can find his body soon so perhaps some questions can be answered. Regardless of the outcome, please continue to be safe. Follow the safety information Michael provided on this forum and also provide love and grace to Brandon his dive buddy who is suffering through this loss as well. God Bless all of you, be safe and remember life is short so forgive anyone who you need to so you have no regrets if someone unexpectedly dies. I have no regrets, Michael knows how much he was loved..."
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Old 07-30-2013, 11:32 PM   #51
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Freedive Spearfishing Safety

I have just a short time until I need to go back to work, but I want to respond to the points raised here.

The result of these methods being mainstreamed, and and the teaching of them being disguised and pushed as a safety course appropriate for all divers, begining and advanced, is that more people are diving deeper and making longer bottom times a routine part of their diving.

For people who are already diving deep, and have as their goal long bottom times these classes are appropriate. What I object to is the normalization of these methods and the fiscally motivated recruitment of divers into these classes regardless of their skill level.

By making 50'+ dives and 2 minute bottom time seem normal, the performance freedive community is placing divers who would otherwise be diving to more reasonable depths and times at risk of death.

Im going to come out and say it because I told Michael to his face the same thing; most all of the safety stuff he advocated is bull shit for most divers. What little sound advice is contained in this stuff is negated by willfully choosing to engage in dangerous patterns of diving that is being mistaken for a safe one. Things can go wrong when diving, if something goes wrong its pretty much too late for any of that crap. If you want to dive for decades and be safe the best bet is to not push your limits, and to surface when you first get the urge to do so. That way if you do need to self-rescue you will have all your reserves, not having squandered your oxygen having a longer dive because you have learned that you can and have made a habit of doing so.

Maybe Michael would have been diving to 50' all the time with out his interest in performance freediving. Maybe he would have made long aspetto dives his style with out it. But my hunch is this is not the case. He did this because he learned the "proper" way to dive, all the emphasis on safety did was provide a false sense of security.

On the other threads about him Im seeing over and over how he was such a safe diver, and people concluding that this could happen to any of us any time. I dont think so, some of us are much more likely to die doing this and it has to do with how and where we dive. Learning to push the limits until dangerous diving becomes routine is just to dangerous in a sport where an error can lead to death.

I really wonder if Michael on some level knew this, and if his fixation on "safety" was his way of rationalizing this risky activity. If so he was certainly in my opinion abetted in this by performance diving advocates who encourage this way of thinking.

Jeremy
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Last edited by Namor; 08-01-2013 at 02:13 AM. Reason: trying to tone down anything too frank and possibly hurtful
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Old 07-31-2013, 12:48 AM   #52
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Freedive Spearfishing Safety

Marissa, you raised a fine son, and have every reason to be proud of him. May God give you peace, and we all pray that they will find Michael soon. We will be thinking of him as we dive, and we will all be more careful as a result. Thank you for sharing your heart and words with us.
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Old 07-31-2013, 01:00 AM   #53
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Freedive Spearfishing Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by Namor View Post
I have just a short time until I need to go back to work, but I want to respond to the points raised here.

The result of these methods being mainstreamed, and and the teaching of them being disguised and pushed as a safety course appropriate for all divers, begining and advanced, is that more people are diving deeper and making longer bottom times a routine part of their diving.

For people who are already diving deep, and have as their goal long bottom times these classes are appropriate. What I object to is the normalization of these methods and the fiscally motivated recruitment of divers into these classes regardless of their skill level.

By making 50'+ dives and 2 minute bottom time seem normal, the performance freedive community is placing divers who would otherwise be diving to more reasonable depths and times at risk of death.

Im going to come out and say it because I told Michael to his face the same thing; most all of the safety stuff he advocated is bull shit for most divers. What little sound advice is contained in this stuff is negated by willfully choosing to engage in dangerous patterns of diving. Things can go wrong when diving, if something goes wrong its pretty much too late for any of that crap. If you want to dive for decades and be safe the best bet is to not push your limits, and to surface when you first get the urge to do so. That way if you do need to self-rescue you will have all your reserves, not having squandered your oxygen having a longer dive because you have learned that you can and have made a habit of doing so.

Maybe Michael would have been diving to 50' all the time with out his interest in performance freediving. Maybe he would have made long aspetto dives his style with out it. But my hunch is this is not the case. He did this because he learned the "proper" way to dive, all the emphasis on safety did was provide a false sense of security.

On the other threads about him Im seeing over and over how he was such a safe diver, and people concluding that this could happen to any of us any time. I dont think so, some of us are much more likely to die doing this and it has to do with how and where we dive. Learning to push the limits until dangerous diving becomes routine is just asking to dance with death.

I really wonder if Michael on some level knew this, and if his fixation on "safety" was his way of rationalizing this risky activity. If so he was certainly in my opinion abetted in this by performance diving advocates who encourage this way of thinking.

Jeremy
You raise some interesting points but it is very difficult to talk in absolutes--one diver may be closer to their limit in a 25' aspetto dive of 1 min than another diver who is doing a 50' aspetto dive of 2 mins. Sure, routinely pushing your personal limit would lead to an acceptance of increased risk, but that limit will vary from diver to diver.
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Old 07-31-2013, 01:48 AM   #54
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Freedive Spearfishing Safety

Quote:
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You raise some interesting points but it is very difficult to talk in absolutes--one diver may be closer to their limit in a 25' aspetto dive of 1 min than another diver who is doing a 50' aspetto dive of 2 mins. Sure, routinely pushing your personal limit would lead to an acceptance of increased risk, but that limit will vary from diver to diver.
All the more reason why encouraging people who otherwise wouldn't to reach 50'++ and two minutes down to do so, should be discouraged. This stuff should not be mainstreamed to the diving community; particularly not for profit.

Real spearfishing saftey education should empasise gradual progress by way of experience, not pushing ones limits, and listening to the body's signals. How long are we as a comunity are we going to embrace for profit classes for all levels of divers that push the opposite.

The more I think about and read about this the more upset I am about this tragic and sensless death. Michael and I discussed this very topic while we were driving to our dive, i wish i had been more adamant and less diplomatic about it in our conversation
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Old 07-31-2013, 02:48 AM   #55
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Freedive Spearfishing Safety

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He and I discussed the most important things in life and he said despite his passion for diving he would give it up in an instant for his family if need be. I dont think he wanted this in any form, and I think passing after playing with the grand kids would have been more in accordance with his wishes.

Mike and I spent a lot of time discussing safe diving when he was here because I dont use any of his guidelines and thought and think that the performance diving technique is perilous. I think given his advocacy of safe diving methods and the magnitude of this tragedy we should have a full discussion of this with out trying to minimize the horror of what has happened to this young man and his family.

It didnt have to be this way

jeremy
Jeremy

I did not mean to upset you but all I ment was if he had to go at all he probably would have preferred to go in the water/outdoors ... If I were to pass unexpectedly I would want to go in the water again sorry for upsetting you
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:22 AM   #56
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Freedive Spearfishing Safety

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Jeremy

I did not mean to upset you but all I ment was if he had to go at all he probably would have preferred to go in the water/outdoors ... If I were to pass unexpectedly I would want to go in the water again sorry for upsetting you
Wyatt

No apology necessary, I should be saying Im sorry for giving such a snappy and bitchy response to your sentiments; its my bad really.

I just dont think anyone is served by seeing a silver lining of any kind in this dark cloud. To me this is a bigger deal than a diver perishing in an accident like a boat strike, this in my opinion is likely the result of our wide spread embrace as a community of performance freedive techniques.

Im upset at my self because I have harbored these feelings about this for a long time and have been restrained in my voicing of it. Even when I talked about it with Michael before we dove, I didnt state my ideas as forcefully as i have after his death. He had his ideas and i had mine, and I didnt really push the point because i figured it was just one more way in which he and I viewed the world differently. He was just a guy i was taking on a dive and I didnt think it important really except I didnt want to dive buddy style with our guns loaded in the poor vis. He of all people, being as outspoken as myself should have been someone I articulated my thoughts to fully.

Anyway you dont owe me an apology in any way. If you ever make it out to Ca let me know, you have a standing invite to dive with me anytime

jeremy
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Old 07-31-2013, 07:38 AM   #57
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Freedive Spearfishing Safety

Reading this now is effing gut wrenching, I can't imagine my kids growing up without really knowing me.

RIP Michael, stay safe everyone...
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Old 08-01-2013, 12:26 AM   #58
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Freedive Spearfishing Safety

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No apology necessary, I should be saying Im sorry for giving such a snappy and bitchy response to your sentiments; its my bad really.

I just dont think anyone is served by seeing a silver lining of any kind in this dark cloud. To me this is a bigger deal than a diver perishing in an accident like a boat strike, this in my opinion is likely the result of our wide spread embrace as a community of performance freedive techniques.

Im upset at my self because I have harbored these feelings about this for a long time and have been restrained in my voicing of it. Even when I talked about it with Michael before we dove, I didnt state my ideas as forcefully as i have after his death. He had his ideas and i had mine, and I didnt really push the point because i figured it was just one more way in which he and I viewed the world differently. He was just a guy i was taking on a dive and I didnt think it important really except I didnt want to dive buddy style with our guns loaded in the poor vis. He of all people, being as outspoken as myself should have been someone I articulated my thoughts to fully.

Anyway you dont owe me an apology in any way. If you ever make it out to Ca let me know, you have a standing invite to dive with me anytime

jeremy
Thx Jeremy ill be sure to hit you up next time I'm out there but just so you know I'm not a great diver by any means and can hardly hit 45 ft on a good day lol
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Old 08-01-2013, 06:51 AM   #59
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Freedive Spearfishing Safety

Search is scheduled to resume today, lets pray they bring him home today.

Aloha,
Chad
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Old 08-01-2013, 09:31 AM   #60
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Freedive Spearfishing Safety

Update:
http://m.4029tv.com/news/search-resu...z/-/index.html
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