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California Fisheries Regulations and Science (MLPA & MPA) Here is a dedicated forum for the extremely important MLPA & MPA process

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Old 09-14-2015, 03:53 AM   #16
FullFlavorPike
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Re: Do we think this fish farm is a bad idea?

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Um serious about what you idiot? You are against the pens so wtf are you doing criticizing my attempt to get scuba divers concerned? Did i say anything about commercial dive boats like they were once some kind of political lobbying force? I'm talking about the thousands of wealthy influential retired dudes that dive and could pour Mr politician a glass of single malt and say "hey you aren't gonna let this fish farm happen are you?"

"at least to my understanding" - who writes like that? That line is for talking on the spot. You don't type that.

What rojo said...

You're spot on to want scuba divers involved in this issue. My point is that commercial dive boats would have a much more compelling argument against the pens by saying, "installing these fish pens will ruin my livelihood for this and this reason" Recreational divers, on the other hand (though they may well be rich old diver dudes sipping single malt with the city councilman) don't have nearly so compelling a case because it's very easy to paint them as selfish NIMBYs instead of concerned watermen.

You and I don't see it that way at all, but it's important to consider how those in favor of the fish farming operations will defend themselves, and also how they will attack the fishermen, divers, and others who will argue against installing a massive fish farm adjacent to a popular sport fishing and diving area.
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Old 09-14-2015, 10:51 PM   #17
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Re: Do we think this fish farm is a bad idea?

Sorry guys. This proposal is so insane i am a bit worked up.
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Old 09-15-2015, 03:57 AM   #18
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Re: Do we think this fish farm is a bad idea?

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Sorry guys. This proposal is so insane i am a bit worked up.
All good.
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Old 09-15-2015, 05:40 AM   #19
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Re: Do we think this fish farm is a bad idea?

I also have to wonder how commercial fishermen would feel about a supply of farmed YT undercutting them, and possibly forcing the price of wild YT through the roof to make the fishery profitable.
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Old 10-03-2015, 11:14 AM   #20
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Re: Do we think this fish farm is a bad idea?

Hey Rojo,

I did a little research and Hubbs is partnering with the investment firm "Cuna Del Mar" for this Fish Farm. Cuna Del Mar"s major investor is Christy Walton of Walmart.

WalMart is getting into the fish farming business.

There are 3 fish that are looking to be farmed there, WSB, Yt and Striped Bass.

Up here in Santa Barbara, the hook and line White Seabass fishery is a very large part of a lot of small boat commercial fisherman's income, as it consistently brings a high price(over $5/lb).

I wonder what the fisherman's price of WSB will be when Walmart is selling WSB fillets for 12/lb? At full capacity the production is expected to be 500mt/year. That is a lot of Fish!

On an economic level, this farm would further centralize who gets the consumers money from a seafood purchase, and as a commercial fisherman the volume of fish it would produce may flood the market and bring the overall price paid to the fisherman way down.

Who is to say that if the market overseas is better the fish from the fish farm won't get shipped to China?

Anyways, these are a lot of the concerns floating around in my head.

Your thoughts?

Eric Hodge
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Old 10-03-2015, 04:30 PM   #21
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Re: Do we think this fish farm is a bad idea?

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Hey Rojo,

I did a little research and Hubbs is partnering with the investment firm "Cuna Del Mar" for this Fish Farm. Cuna Del Mar"s major investor is Christy Walton of Walmart.

WalMart is getting into the fish farming business.

There are 3 fish that are looking to be farmed there, WSB, Yt and Striped Bass.

Up here in Santa Barbara, the hook and line White Seabass fishery is a very large part of a lot of small boat commercial fisherman's income, as it consistently brings a high price(over $5/lb).

I wonder what the fisherman's price of WSB will be when Walmart is selling WSB fillets for 12/lb? At full capacity the production is expected to be 500mt/year. That is a lot of Fish!

On an economic level, this farm would further centralize who gets the consumers money from a seafood purchase, and as a commercial fisherman the volume of fish it would produce may flood the market and bring the overall price paid to the fisherman way down.

Who is to say that if the market overseas is better the fish from the fish farm won't get shipped to China?

Anyways, these are a lot of the concerns floating around in my head.

Your thoughts?

Eric Hodge
I favor small fishermen; I grew up with the Dory fleet in Newport Beach; they launched from shore daily in pangas, and sold their fish right next to the pier.
It was in part because of that experience growing up why I took up commercial H&L rockfishing for a while. It was awesome to catch some fish, and see that SAME exact fish in the market 48hrs later. I always got a kick out of that; many of my local reds and big starry-eyed rockfish were sold at my local Albertsons.

Wal Mart, and anything of that scope will simply squash local fishermen, ad there is a scenario which I play out for people, which happens worldwide with fishing.
Here it is:

Enviros, and big business target a fishery. Maybe it's overfished, or undervalued, or they see a market which they want to open up. They get an area or a species labeled as overfished, depleted, in decline. They get closures on the fishery, or severe reductions in take.

Next step is the small fishermen start to struggle, and they often quit the fishery, or the fishery is closed, and they lose their permits. f they can sell the now worthless permits, they do so. And enviros or big businesses are there to buy them up.....

Next step is the fishery gets studies and analyzed by those with a vested interest. They get their findings approved, and the fishery gets reopened. But there are scant few left to fish it, and few hold the permits. Suddenly, the enviros or big businesses hold all the permits, and the original fishermen are told they can come back and fish their old line of work...... for the new boss....... for a fraction of their original income. In some places, I know where a fisherman sold his boat with his permit. He got about $10K US dollars for the whole package. 3 years later, swinging a hammer, digging ditches, etc. for $5 an hour...... and they come back to him and tell him "Great News! You can come back and work for us fishing, and we will pay you $10 an hour. Surely it's better than what you are making now, no? Why, we will even let you operate the boat that you used to run. How nice would THAT be....??!!"

Poor ****er used to make like $300 a day profit after he took care of the boat and everything. He now fishes harder than ever, and takes home $100 a day...... for more like 14hrs. a day of work. There IS no such thing as an 8hr. day of fishing for a living.

These fish arms here, competing with local fishermen???? It's a rape of society. It's beyond fair capitalism, because they restrict us with MPA's and then come in like this on the backside, after pinching the small fishermen.



Farming fish is a good thing. But where, and how are the great questions, and for what and whose benefit, and at what cost. If you are telling me they want to dig a hole, make stock ponds and grow catfish and other freshwater fish? GREAT. If you are telling me you want to grow pen-raised WSB in the open ocean? Okay, but lets' talk about the particulars. Who already fishes it? Where is their market? Will a new fisher displace an existing fishery? What is the target demographic and destination for the farmed fish? What natural and ecological resources are required for this growth of the product? (You grow grass and hay for cattle; where do you get metric tonnage of forage fish for an increased population of predatory fish- and will this strain the available forage fish population or lessen it's avaialability for natural fish?) Does the forage fish take et diverted from some other industry; do we lose out on cat food and fish meal sources for human consumption to support WSB or striper farming? You know, the amount of feed it takes to bring a predator like a WSB, YT, Striper to quality market size (10+lb for fat content, flavor, yield) means 2-3 years in the pen, and this means hundreds of pounds of sardines, squid and anchovy, which in a caloric sense are far more valuable as a food source, and provide better economic benefit for the world human market and population. (WSB and Y are glamour table fish; the world as a whole eats tilapia, sardines, rockfish, small snapper, squid, etc. Less than .01% of the world has ever eaten, and will ever eat a WSB, Striper, or YT. But like 70% have eaten a squid, mackerel, sardine, tilapia or rockfish/ codfish. And those fish tend to sell at a much lower price point than any glamour fish like what we are describing.

So that is my rant on sustainability of farming fish; big predators in a cage might not be in our best interest.......
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Old 10-03-2015, 04:32 PM   #22
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Re: Do we think this fish farm is a bad idea?

BTW, THANK YOU Eric for being seriously interested and concerned.

Some days, I swear I feel like I am all alone in these thoughts, and then a few guys who I don't hear from often enough (My bad) chime in and remind me that I AM NOT ALONE.

Thank you all.
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Old 10-03-2015, 09:44 PM   #23
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Re: Do we think this fish farm is a bad idea?

The stage has always been set (or framed) in this way- " THE FISHERMAN VERSUS THE ENVIRONMENTALIST"

But here the real story comes out.

Coming out the the shadows is big Agribusiness or shall we call it BIG MONEY. Those who have the most cash and have the biggest stake in who profits from food purchases, are determined to push the little guy(in this case fisherman) out of the market.

Lets not forget who funded a lot of the WSB research, drum roll please.............

Me and you, I mean we did , as fisherman our "Ocean enhancement stamp"(commercial guys pay 10 times what rec guys pay) funded the WSB research that will now PUT THEM OUT OF BUSINESS!

That is really smart think'in, I wish I was that smart.

I guess the only hope I see is in the education of local consumers, by local fisherman that there is a real connection between where they spend their hard earned dollars and who benefits.
That is why I try I pay the extra cash for a receivers license and try to retail as much fish as I can.

Who do you all think they will go after next, I mean after most commercial fishing is outlawed? We can't have people eating their own fish that they have caught now, can we? Every time someone catches and eats some kind of wild fish that is dollars out of the pockets of big agribusiness.

Small time commercial fishermen and recreational fishermen have much more in common than they realize.

Thanks Rojo, I enjoy reading your analysis every time you get on these management topics. Keep them coming!

Eric
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Old 10-04-2015, 12:00 AM   #24
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Re: Do we think this fish farm is a bad idea?

Rojo,
You and I are/were in the same fishery, I primary fish Reds and Lings. The Feds just open up our quota's this year(in So Cal) and it is for good reason, there are a lot of rockfish and Lingcod out there. The stacks I see on the meter are really healthy, but I feel like I am learning a lost art.
The ability to got lost on your fish finder for hours at a time, learning the gear, the fish and keeps your spots quiet and not fishing them too often, all come into play in becoming a fisherman who is consistent and sustainable.

I look forward to hearing some of your old stories


Eric
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Old 10-04-2015, 11:01 PM   #25
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Re: Do we think this fish farm is a bad idea?

I really need to get another boat and get my finfish permit again.

Nothing in the world like setting lines out in 350ft. and then jigging for lings right next to them, banging away on the rockfish for a day, then cruising home and paying for diapers with it.

Man; my son just tuned 25 on Friday; makes me realize how long ago it was that I fished for a living!!!! (Diapers- holy shit! I could be a grandpa in a few years!!!) LOL
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Old 10-07-2015, 04:41 PM   #26
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Re: Do we think this fish farm is a bad idea?

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Originally Posted by rojodiablo View Post
BTW, THANK YOU Eric for being seriously interested and concerned.

Some days, I swear I feel like I am all alone in these thoughts, and then a few guys who I don't hear from often enough (My bad) chime in and remind me that I AM NOT ALONE.

Thank you all.
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Old 10-08-2015, 10:23 AM   #27
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Re: Do we think this fish farm is a bad idea?

Rojo,

Commercial rock fishing is a little more complex these days. RCA's, SMR's, VMS requirements,CCA's, USGC mandatory inspections, cumulative trip limits,daily trip limits, plus overlapping state and Federal management, make it very complex to navigate.

You almost have to be lawyer to figure it all out(you would be great at it).

I have been pushed more than once by California DFG wardens who didn't know the law, the 2nd time they were going to a District Attorney about a quota violation, until I dug the law out of Title 14 in the CA code and gently reminded them of what it said.

Even with the regulatory nuances, it is still lots fun and a great way to spend the day!

Eric
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Old 10-23-2015, 11:25 AM   #28
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Re: Do we think this fish farm is a bad idea?

This is an excellent thread.

I'm wondering about the feed for such a farm is provided. Isn't there a quota in CA for commercial squid? And if so, how would the squid supply for the farm effect the local squid fishery?
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Old 11-02-2015, 12:04 PM   #29
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Re: Do we think this fish farm is a bad idea?

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This is an excellent thread.

I'm wondering about the feed for such a farm is provided. Isn't there a quota in CA for commercial squid? And if so, how would the squid supply for the farm effect the local squid fishery?
I wouldn't be surprised if they plan to feed them on fishmeal and other shit, which could easily come from fisheries in some Asian countries where fishing boats employ slave labor and practice destructive fishing techniques. This would be a Bad Thing in general, not just for the questionable health of the farm fish.
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Old 12-02-2015, 02:02 AM   #30
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Re: Do we think this fish farm is a bad idea?

Hey guys, great read.
I have been on the outside for a bit, working on another career from the bottom up, again.
Rojo, your theory about the enviro fishermen, I'm sure you were telling the tale of the doctor of fishes mr. gaines.
We need to stay connected, poised, and at the ready, because at anytime we will again be asked to give up more of what belongs to us all, for the profits of a few, disguised as good for the commons (common good).
Soupfin & Rojo, love you both!
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