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Diving Safety, Accidents and Incidents Post here to discuss accidents, incidents, ideas, gear, or anything else to improve spearfishing safety. Memorials and condolences threads should be placed in that separate forum.

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Old 02-10-2009, 11:42 PM   #16
Lone Star Spearo
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Re: Free-Diving Pony Bottle Use for Emergencies?

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Originally Posted by Louis Rossignol View Post
I don't know what organization you dive for (compete), or maybe it's just for pleasure.

I La. we had skin divers, diving with a tank on their back trying to count their fish as skin. They would just keep the snorkel in their mouths. If you bring it, you intend on using it. Not skin if you have a tank.

My opinion on ponies, I've seen too many divers deplete all of their air supply tankin it, because they knew they had a back up pony bottle.

What do they do the one time they really need it and it malfunctions???
Did you even read what he wrote or did you just have the urge to ramble on?

He didnt say anything about spearing/fishing, he said to recover a friend or diver from the bottom and he said it would be kept on his PWC. What about that makes you think he is trying to "count fish as skin"?

Paul,
I think its a great idea, just listen to the guys that are hear to answer your question.

Good luck

Aloha,
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Old 02-10-2009, 11:50 PM   #17
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Re: Free-Diving Pony Bottle Use for Emergencies?

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Originally Posted by Louis Rossignol View Post
I don't know what organization you dive for (compete), or maybe it's just for pleasure.

I La. we had skin divers, diving with a tank on their back trying to count their fish as skin. They would just keep the snorkel in their mouths. If you bring it, you intend on using it. Not skin if you have a tank.

My opinion on ponies, I've seen too many divers deplete all of their air supply tankin it, because they knew they had a back up pony bottle.

What do they do the one time they really need it and it malfunctions???
Lou,

Did you even read the original post and then all that came after it? None of what you said seems to have anything to do with the thread.

But to spare you the trouble, here is a summary. I don't dive with a tank and call the fish "skin." I don't compete anyway.

We aren't talking about using pony bottles as backup on a scuba dive. We are talking about freedivers using a pony bottle to retrieve anchors, fish tied up too deep for safety, or bodies of the guys you refer too.
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Old 02-11-2009, 12:48 AM   #18
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Re: Free-Diving Pony Bottle Use for Emergencies?

Ok guys, flame down...

I was just warning folks that are not familiar with SCUBA what the dangers of breathing compressed air at depth are. Especially if your used to assending holding your breath. And yes... you would be amazed at how much air you can suck down if you panic.... remember, or for those who dont know basic physics,... at 100 feet down,...your using 3 times the volume of air that you would breath at the surface with every breath. It compresses with the depth.. So your 6cf bottle, at 100 ft,... has only 2 cf of air in it if it was full when you arrived at 100ft...That is what,...a few deep breaths... 30 seconds, if that,...,...hell yes...its empty....I carry a 20cf LP bottle with me on all dives just as a safety measure... I have used it at 40' once, just to see how long it would last... At a calm breathing rate,.. it lasted 3 min 25 seconds...

and no,... I am not spouting off numbers here... this is basic open water skills taught in any PADI SCUBA course.

Check for yourselves... but I would think twice about trying to use a 6cf bottle to retrieve an anchor or anything else at 100 feet.
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Old 02-11-2009, 01:00 AM   #19
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Re: Free-Diving Pony Bottle Use for Emergencies?

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Ok guys, flame down...

I was just warning folks that are not familiar with SCUBA what the dangers of breathing compressed air at depth are. Especially if your used to assending holding your breath. And yes... you would be amazed at how much air you can suck down if you panic.... remember, or for those who dont know basic physics,... at 100 feet down,...your using 3 times the volume of air that you would breath at the surface with every breath. It compresses with the depth.. So your 6cf bottle, at 100 ft,... has only 2 cf of air in it if it was full when you arrived at 100ft...That is what,...a few deep breaths... 30 seconds, if that,...,...hell yes...its empty....I carry a 20cf LP bottle with me on all dives just as a safety measure... I have used it at 40' once, just to see how long it would last... At a calm breathing rate,.. it lasted 3 min 25 seconds...

and no,... I am not spouting off numbers here... this is basic open water skills taught in any PADI SCUBA course.

Check for yourselves... but I would think twice about trying to use a 6cf bottle to retrieve an anchor or anything else at 100 feet.
I was actually quizing my 10 yr old on this same example tonight. 100 feet is not 3 atmospheres; it is 4. What air consumption rate are you assuming to arrive at 30 seconds?

You tell us you calmly sucked down 20 cu-ft at 40 feet in less than 4 minutes. That is a ridiculously high breathing rate.

edit: Has anyone ever heard of a diver breathing down a full 80 cu-ft tank at 40 feet in 14 minutes? That is the consumption rate that Samson categorizes as "a calm breathing rate".
Maybe that will help people to put his comments in perspective.
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Old 02-11-2009, 09:49 AM   #20
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Re: Free-Diving Pony Bottle Use for Emergencies?

I think this is an interesting post. I think the key is to remember that we are talking about "in an emergency situation". We are also talking about people that can freedive to 80 ft or deeper all day long. I'm willing to bet that they have better SAC rates than most of us scubadivers.

I think a 6ft3 would probably work if tight on space but I would prefer a 13ft3 which is what I use as scuba backup now. I did have a 6ft3 run out at the safety stop one day after several minutes of use. I just went up slowly when it ran out.

I have used a 6ft3 in the pool and it lasted 13 minutes. At 100 ft that should still give me a few minutes.
A 6ft3 tank @ 3000 psi is roughly equal to an aluminum 80 at 233 psi. Given a decent regulator that should give at least few minutes to address an emergency or anchor retrieval.
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Old 02-11-2009, 10:46 AM   #21
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Re: Free-Diving Pony Bottle Use for Emergencies?

good point catalyst about fredivers having a better consumptionn rate anyway
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Old 02-11-2009, 11:17 AM   #22
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Re: Free-Diving Pony Bottle Use for Emergencies?

Just be careful Guys & Gals! There are tons of young kids out there looking up to you. Another point to remember is that you can buy these bottles online or anywhere else, but a reputable SCUBA shop or any air filling station is going to want to see your OW cert before filling any bottles.
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Old 02-11-2009, 12:21 PM   #23
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Thumbs up Re: Free-Diving Pony Bottle Use for Emergencies?

Simmer down some of you...

Great info and posts. Yes, I'm quite aware of the dangers suffering an embolism while ascending. That's why I mentioned I was OW SCUBA certified. That, and to indicate that getting regular air filled would not be an issue at SCUBA shops.

My take-home message from this thread is that yes, a pony bottle or a 6cf bottle would be a very wise piece of safety gear to carry on my PWC.

I already dive past 120' on a single lungful, but in an emergency situation, I will not have the luxury of spending a few calm minutes on the surface properly breathing up for such a deep descent. I am strict about using the 1-down, 1-up buddy system when diving, so I will already have most of my Co2 vented by the time my dive partner comes back into sight or I decide that something was wrong with my dive buddy below.

Most free-divers dive with too much weight on them so once a body sinks to the bottom, it is very likely they will stay put. However as they drift down, the currents (which are almost always present in Hawaii waters) this will cause the body to settle somewhere else other than directly below me. Being able to cover some quality ground on the bottom to find a body could have made the difference in my ability to find the last body that was lost.

Then there's the extra effort required to pull a body up to the surface. I obviously know to ditch both of our weight belts, but we will be negative at 100' (I go negative at about 35' with NO weights on with a large lungful of air and a 4mm full suit). It will take a fair bit of work to kick all the way back up to the surface dragging a body (pulled by top of hood).

All in all, I would not take in more than 2-3 breaths out of the bottle, and the first one would not be until I hit the bottom at 100+' other than a shallow test breath at the surface to check that it was working before descending.

6CF or Pony Bottle? Any good deals out there on a complete set-up (air gauge a must)?

How strong/durable are the valve regulators? Can they take a beating inside a PWC storage compartment or do I need some type of cage built over the regulator to protect it?




As a side note, when it comes to freeing anchors some may be interested to know that the ability of somebody to go deeper than they normally can on a lung hold is increased considerably using the pull-down method instead of kicking down with the legs. The legs have the largest muscles in the body, and use up the most oxygen when activated. If somebody were to just use their arms to pull themselves down a cable AND pull themselves back up, the 02 use for that dive is reduced considerably. That's how I've dealt with stuck anchors in the past.

But hey, if you have bottled air and the know-how to use it, then yes, that does seem like a smarter/safer alternative.

-Paul
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Old 02-11-2009, 01:05 PM   #24
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Re: Free-Diving Pony Bottle Use for Emergencies?

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As a side note, when it comes to freeing anchors some may be interested to know that the ability of somebody to go deeper than they normally can on a lung hold is increased considerably using the pull-down method instead of kicking down with the legs. The legs have the largest muscles in the body, and use up the most oxygen when activated. If somebody were to just use their arms to pull themselves down a cable AND pull themselves back up, the 02 use for that dive is reduced considerably. That's how I've dealt with stuck anchors in the past.

But hey, if you have bottled air and the know-how to use it, then yes, that does seem like a smarter/safer alternative.

-Paul
You are certainly right about pulling up and down, but its what happens at the bottom with anchors that scares me. Often there is a strong current or wind holding the line and chain tight, and a swell jerking on it. You may have to fight that while trying to pull a 15.5 or 22 pound anchor out of the rocks. Then you have chain jerking around you. And very often, the bottom is such that if I just pull the anchor out of where its caught and drop it, it is very likely to just catch under another rock, so I try to take it up and wrap line around it to foul it. There no way I could do that freediving.

I realize that I'm describing worst case, and that you don't have that large an anchor or that much chain on your PWC, but I just wanted to point out these things for others to consider.
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Old 02-11-2009, 01:10 PM   #25
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Re: Free-Diving Pony Bottle Use for Emergencies?

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Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
I was actually quizing my 10 yr old on this same example tonight. 100 feet is not 3 atmospheres; it is 4. What air consumption rate are you assuming to arrive at 30 seconds?

You tell us you calmly sucked down 20 cu-ft at 40 feet in less than 4 minutes. That is a ridiculously high breathing rate.

edit: Has anyone ever heard of a diver breathing down a full 80 cu-ft tank at 40 feet in 14 minutes? That is the consumption rate that Samson categorizes as "a calm breathing rate".
Maybe that will help people to put his comments in perspective.
Sorry for the continued derailment but I couldn't agree more with Jim. Samson, you might want to limit your diving to 40 feet if you're spanking down a 19 cf (they don't even make 20s) in 4 minutes at 40 feet. Might want to give up smoking too

Nice meeting you at the Expo this weekend Jim, looking forward to using the Mako floatline soon

Edit: You as well Bill, introduced myself to you early on Saturday <NSEARCH>.
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Old 02-11-2009, 01:50 PM   #26
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Re: Free-Diving Pony Bottle Use for Emergencies?

I started with this rig and since switched to a 13ft3 bottle. It is really easy to add any length LP hose between the first and second stage depending on your mounting choice. I still have my 6ft3 bottle but I think I would be pretty expensive to ship to Hawaii.
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Old 02-11-2009, 02:19 PM   #27
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Re: Free-Diving Pony Bottle Use for Emergencies?

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Edit: You as well Bill, introduced myself to you early on Saturday <NSEARCH>.
OK, now I've got you identified. It was nice to meet you, and I appreciate your introducing yourself.
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Old 02-11-2009, 02:41 PM   #28
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Re: Free-Diving Pony Bottle Use for Emergencies?

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1) I think a Spare-Air would be perfect for what you would want it for.

Pony bottle would be over kill IMO... I think this is one of the few times that a http://www.spareair.com/ would fit the bill perfectly.

edit: I have a membership with DAN... if you'd like, I can contact them to see what they say concerning question number three. I'm curious as well, even though I think I know the answer.
Spare Air is completely useless. You can barely get up from 100' with a Spare Air and make a safety stop, let alone descending, working on the bottom and then ascending to the surface. I think you are cutting it too close to think a Spare Air "would be perfect for what you would want it for".

I agree with jfjf, a 6 would be good and a 13 a little better.
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Old 02-11-2009, 02:47 PM   #29
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Re: Free-Diving Pony Bottle Use for Emergencies?

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Spare Air is completely useless. You can barely get up from 100' with a Spare Air and make a safety stop, let alone descending, working on the bottom and then ascending to the surface. I think you are cutting it too close to think a Spare Air "would be perfect for what you would want it for".

I agree with jfjf, a 6 would be good and a 13 a little better.
I agree. A Spare Air would be worthless, and a 13 is best.
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Old 02-11-2009, 03:49 PM   #30
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Re: Free-Diving Pony Bottle Use for Emergencies?

40 feet 20 c.f. equals less then 4 minutes haha that is the worst air consumption rate I have ever read. Andre the giant would have been better than that. Samson you seriously seem like your from another planet with your advice and information. You pick two of the most knowledgeable guys in bill and jim to go at. What a mistake to pull figures out of your butt.
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