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General Spearfishing & Diving Discussion This is where you post to discuss general spearfishing topics that could apply to any region. |
View Poll Results: Is the IUSA an effective "International" Organization | |||
Yes | 25 | 45.45% | |
No | 25 | 45.45% | |
No comment | 5 | 9.09% | |
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll |
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09-18-2014, 09:18 AM | #61 |
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Re: IUSA/IBSRC position -- Latham Island
The problem here is that there is a further clause in the regulations that states that sport spearfishing is legal with a license that the IUSA is just ignoring.
That regulation has also been posted on this forum and a letter from the director of fisheries from Zanzibar has been sent to IUSA in which the Mainland fisheries where cc and there was no dispute that the licence allows Extreme Blue Water spearfishing to spear at Latham. The IUSA just will not admit that they have made a mistake and are digging in despite the clear counter evidence to what they where originally told. Told by people that don't like spearfishing. Why was all our gear returned and why is there no issue with us spearfishing at Latham now if it was illegal. Believe me in Africa if you do something illegal that they can catch you on they will be there to catch you. The IUSA has been fed only half of the information by someone who has a vested interest on stopping spearfishing in this area. IUSA have made a decision on only half the information. Really sad. Spearfishing is legal with a licences under sport spearfishing. |
09-18-2014, 09:30 AM | #62 | |||||||||||
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Re: Iusa
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So which one was approached? Was the other also approached? If only the one on Mainland Tanzania was approached, was there ever an 'official' (I mean in writing, for only that can be considered official) request by the IUSA to that ministry (on Mainland Tanzania) to clarify Zanzibar's status on fisheries? Was there ever a request to describe the Territorial Sea, and how Zanzibar had jurisdiction on it in terms of fisheries? Did the IUSA ever write to the ministry on Mainland Tanzania and ask whether they disputed our spearfishing licenses or the fact that Zanzibar claims they are legal to be used at Latham Island, and get an answer in writing? I believe that the questions asked are valid and will shed light on the thoroughness of the due diligence done by the IUSA. If the answers to the questions is 'no,' then I'd like to know why such important questions were not asked. Surely had the ministry on Mainland Tanzania been asked those specific questions, their answers would have shed light on this matter once and for all. Quote:
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Therefore, for the sake of accuracy, we applied for a license from both Mainland Tanzania and Zanzibar, as is required in the laws of Tanzania. It is also accurate to say that Mainland Tanzania did turn us down, but only once (and not repeatedly as you state). Once was enough!! Quote:
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There was never a time we fired a shot from our boat, as you suggest. That is absolutely a lie. The second encounter, which resulted in the video you posted, was not an official raid on us. The reason I say this is that; 1. The boat used belonged to the DYC. 2. None of the people on board had any official ID on them. 3. The armed men on board refused to look at our documents. Normally, if you are stopped by an official anywhere in the world, they should identify themselves and ask you for documents. 4. The armed men fired a shot over our boat and forced us to hand over our gear, which they took without signing for them. If it was an official raid and confiscation of gear, the law required them to issue a receipt for the gear, or to sign for it. We had pen and paper on our boat, but they refused to sign for the gear. To me, and to the Director of Fisheries in Zanzibar, the raid was an act of piracy, an attack totally run by the DYC. There is nothing to suggest that the raid was done officially by official personnel. Once back on the Mainland, the DYC handed the confiscated gear to the authorities, who then took over the matter, investigated, found no fault on our part (see attached investigation report that can be translated), and proceeded to return the gear to us 17 months later. Here is the video of the returned gear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkeXMzdN6VY. We've been going back to Latham Island ever since, and as everyone knows, ex National Spearfishing champion Dan Silveira, Kimi Werner, and Ryan McInnis were there in November (see the latest issue of Spearing Magazine for a report on that amazing trip). Quote:
One more thing. Did you counter check Mr. Mbilinyi’s claims with his counter part on Zanzibar, Mr. Mussa Jumbe? Mr. Jumbe is Mr. Mbilinyi’s equal and the latter has no authority over the first. Or did you simply prefer to keep the facts one sided because it better suited the result you wanted? This is not personal, just plain and simple fair questions. Quote:
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As for both parties having to approve, that is not the case. The law of Tanzania states that Zanzibar makes it’s own laws, and that in terms of fisheries, it is autonomous completely. The Territorial Sea and Exclusive Economic Zone Act of 1989 defines the Territorial Sea that Zanzibar shares with Mainland Tanzania. Zanzibar is therefore allowed to practice it’s own fishing laws in the country’s Territorial Sea. There is no formal requirement for both sides to agree on one action. However, should one side disagree with the action of the other side, then a formal process is started so that the two can resolve the matter. Until such time, both sides continue with their business. In our case, we are licensed to spearfish off Zanzibar and continue to do so today. We are also allowed to spearfish at Latham Island and continue to do that. In fact we just got back from another charter to Latham Island and it was amazing!! See the attached pictures. Note Latham Island in the background was for the IUSA. As for firing bullets, we have only been on the receiving end, and it is the same people that you and the IUSA use as a source of evidence that are the ones who fired a bullet over our heads. In opting to be so one sided, on their side, without even considering the other side of the story, or looking at the other facts, you are in fact against us, the spearos. To be continued |
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09-18-2014, 09:31 AM | #63 | |
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Posts: 152
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Re: Iusa
Continuation
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Since the beginning of these ordeals, the IUSA have gone out of their way to discredit Zanzibar’s role within Tanzania as well as that of our company. Here is an excerpt from an email sent to me by one of the IUSA board members; remember, it is within the IUSA’s mission statement to ‘help promote spearfishing around the world.’ “acquiring an exclusive "special permit" to spearfish is IN MY MIND equivalent to the japanese getting a scientific collecting permit to collect whales" Hah!!! We, the only company in East Africa trying to promote spearfishing where it was otherwise thought to be illegal should be the destination for tons of help from the IUSA who is supposed to ‘promote’ spearfishing around the world right? Instead, we are being compared to a whaling vessel!!! Forgive me, not only are all the facts wrong, but that sounds very personal. Fortunately, that person eventually apologised and provided me with a lot of constructive information to help our cause, and I totally thank him for that. The fact that the IUSA has no explanation for the official documents from Zanzibar that allow us to spearfish for sport, absolutely nothing that would discredit those documents, and that they have no response to the only official document that the IUSA has received addressed directly to them from a government entity in Tanzania, that of the Commission for Tourism in Zanzibar, makes for the case that the IUSA has sought to use only the information to prove what they want to prove and not the truth. An independent French Presse journalist and reporter from Apnea Magazine should be a credible source right? Well, even his 2 hour interview with the Director of Fisheries in Zanzibar that confirms everything I say above seems to have no weight with the IUSA. Only what the Dar Yacht Club says, the emails of a few clients who have been with us at the beginning, and what Mr. Mbilinyi says, all who are against spearfishing in Tanzania, seem to have any weight with the IUSA. And lastly, the IUSA has no credible explanation for rescinding a world record taken far away from Latham Island some 12 months after it was awarded. Forgive me, I have nothing personal against you Sheri, or any of the other board members for that matter, but your case on Latham Island is totally flawed and based on one sided information. There is no objectiveness nor fairness in it, and since you are a spearo and the IUSA is a spearo organisation, unless anyone can disprove in writing that we are legally spearfishing at Latham Island, the IUSA should side with us and that spearfishing is indeed legal there. |
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09-18-2014, 09:44 AM | #64 | |
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Location: Florida USA
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Re: Iusa
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Here is an update on my efforts. I tried calling Tanzanian authorities a few times this week, but could not get through to the right person. As you stated somewhere in the above posts in the midst of verbosity, you agree the answer will be no and will verify this letter below that states spearfishing is illegal somewhere over there in that part of the world. When I get through to the right person, I will ask them specifically about Latham Island and try my best to get them to put it in writing. In the meantime, it appears to me that both IUSA and IBSRC have fulfilled their obligation to vet spearfishing world records rather well and determined the records at issue do not pass the smell test. Tony Last edited by SpearMax; 09-18-2014 at 10:17 PM. |
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09-18-2014, 09:23 PM | #65 | |
Pacific Spearo
Join Date: Jul 2007
Age: 62
Posts: 3,358
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Re: Iusa
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09-18-2014, 10:17 PM | #66 |
Pacific Spearo
Join Date: Jul 2007
Age: 62
Posts: 3,358
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Re: Iusa
Eric,
Sorry to say but this statement and attitude is a reason they will never approve a record request: “acquiring an exclusive "special permit" to spearfish is IN MY MIND equivalent to the japanese getting a scientific collecting permit to collect whales" This is their attitude and speaks mountains towards what is going on. Whether they admit it or not, it tells a tale. Here's my take on this: First off that is a childish response. In fact, there are many bodies of water around the world that have reciprocal agreements and sharing. Some contested, some not. A quick google search will show many. Each of the sharing countries have their own laws and take limits. Some will require a license for both countries/states on a single body of water, some will say one license covers all areas. Some have different take limits and some share across the agreement. Your license is Zanzibar and you have it there because Tanzania does not allow it. It isnt rocket science to figure this one out and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. This should not be an issue, but everybody for some strange reason is. People do this all the time. They go to different parts of the world obtain a license and fish. They do it for many reasons. There are different limits everywhere and people go to where those limits favor a person's individual needs. There are commercial fishermen who have licenses in different states to benefit their business. Perfectly allowed and accepted except to the IUSA it seems. The crap that went down at the islands with the yacht club and that specific fishing operation was years ago. No charges filed and equipment returned means to my layman mind that what happened was wrong. It was shady pure and simple. Many people in the western dont understand how life is in these undeveloped countries works. Money and corruption rules. Laws and regulations are nothing more than pieces of paper. People will enforce them only when it benefits an individual not because its the right thing to do. You have provided ample evidence to back up and support your organization and position and still the first word out of everybody's mouth is Tanzania. Why is it so difficult to understand you are a Zanzibar businessman and not a Tanzanian? All of your government approval is from Zanzibar! The IUSA has yet to respond to any of your paperwork nor approval from Zanzibar and I find that appalling. The first word out of everyones's mouth is Tanzania. Even Tony is not listening to your argument and he is trying to call Tanzania. I think its high time that the IUSA call Zanzibar since that is where your GOVERNMENT APPROVAL resides, NOT TANZANIA! Unfortunately their answer and position is no and therefore, they are using sources that favor their position vs really being objective and Tony is doing the exact same thing with his phone calls. This is NOT VETTING. In closing (for now) Eric I want to apologize for my fellow countryman's selfish attitude in trying to impose their own elitist attitudes and values in your part of the world. For trying to be fair and impartial they sure are one sided and blind. |
09-18-2014, 11:04 PM | #67 | |
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Re: IUSA/IBSRC position -- Latham Island
Quote:
The document you are referring to is from Mainland Tanzania. The documents I am referring to are from Zanzibar. The first says no to spearfishing, the second says yes. So I understand your point of view. However, within the laws of Tanzania, Zanzibar has a right to say 'yes' and Mainland Tanzania must respect it. That is the point I am trying to make. When Zanzibar issues a license, it has done so in agreement with the laws that Mainland Tanzania has agreed to. Zanzibar therefore has it's own right to issue the license despite whether Mainland Tanzania likes it or not. Therefore, in order to agree with you what we need to see is a statement from Mainland Tanzania that says that the licenses issued by Zanzibar are not valid. Only then can we say that there is an official dispute in this regard. Until such point, Zanzibar is exercising it's right to issue licenses, a right that Mainland Tanzania agreed to in writing. When Mainland Tanzania will have a problem with our spearfishing at Latham Island, it will formally discuss the matter with Zanzibar and an action will be taken. In the mean time, the licenses are legal under the laws of Tanzania, and we are spearfishing legally at Latham Island. Anyone can go to Zanzibar and obtain a sport spearfishing license for their boat and use it at Latham Island. Call it what you want, but it is within the laws of the country to do so, and that is all that should matter at this point. It's simple; Are the fish being taken by spear at Latham Island when using a license from Zanzibar? The answer is 'yes,' because Zanzibar is exercising it's right to issue spearfishing licenses through it's Fisheries Regulations of 1993, and although Mainland Tanzania has it's own Fisheries Act and Regulations, it (Mainland Tanzania) is a signatory to the agreement on the Territorial Sea and must therefore abide by it's rules, which include Zanzibar exercising it's right to do what it wants to do. It's that simple. I hope I am getting my point across.... |
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09-18-2014, 11:05 PM | #68 |
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Re: Iusa
T.i.a.
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09-18-2014, 11:15 PM | #69 | |
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Posts: 152
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Re: Iusa
Quote:
Who is 'the right person' you are referring to? Why do you also refuse to contact the source of the documents we have? Why are you only looking at the one side that says no? If you are going to be fair in this matter, you need to contact Zanzibar and verify what I am saying. In doing so, you would only be the 2nd person to do so. The first was the Journalist Ronan Bourhois, and it seems that what he wrote has no meaning. Maybe what you find will be believed. We already all know what the IUSA is saying so what's the point of asking Mainland Tanzania? Why not try something different to what the 'nay' sayers are saying? |
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09-18-2014, 11:27 PM | #70 | |
Pacific Spearo
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Age: 62
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Re: Iusa
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A simple google search would yield many details to this topic. People should ask the doctor more questions. Thats how I have learned the truth about all of this. Try it. Last edited by 2fishin2; 09-18-2014 at 11:40 PM. |
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09-18-2014, 11:35 PM | #71 | |
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Re: Iusa
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Why is the content of this letter being ignored? |
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09-19-2014, 04:52 AM | #72 | ||
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Re: Iusa
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You make a very important point in the following paragraph; Quote:
I just wonder why the IUSA don't want to double check the facts! I mean, suppose we were in a court of law, would't the jury want to see and double check facts from both sides before making their verdict? As in this analogy the IUSA would be the jury, so why don't they want to confirm the facts from Zanzibar? Why are they sticking to only one side of the story and have no explanation for the other? I just don't get it, I would expect them to search for the truth but they opt rather to stop at the first step! Is it because it's too much work and it is just easier that way? I will never understand it, but what I do understand is that they are certainly not an effective international organisation. I see that the IBSRC is very much the same, as all they've done is hide behind the IUSA, as the IBSRC have never done their own investigation. Here is another good story about the IUSA. I have a Greek client coming this year to Latham. He recently shot a type of Mediterranean Bream that at about 3.5 kgs was much bigger than usual. The normal size for this fish is around 1 kg, so his catch was an amazing feat! He got special recognition in Greece, but the IUSA did not even consider his application because it did not weigh in at the minimum required of 10 lbs. In Dogtooth Tuna terms, his catch would be the equivalent of shooting a 110 kg doggie!!! Now how are we supposed to believe that the IUSA is an effective international organisation when it won't even recognise world record applications for species that are legally taken elsewhere and don't meet their minimum weight limit? We need a reall international organisation to ratify world records from all over the world, one that takes into consideration each location and fish species from those locations. I believe there is one in the making. |
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09-19-2014, 05:40 AM | #73 |
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Re: Iusa
Eric… it seems to me that this boils down to one thing – One governing body says that spearfishing is legal activity and another says it is not – Is this a correct statement?
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09-19-2014, 05:59 AM | #74 |
Pacific Spearo
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Age: 62
Posts: 3,358
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Re: Iusa
I dont know if there is a minimum 10lb size. I just checked the site and there are several fish records below 10lbs.
What I did notice is there are some comical fish with records: http://www.iusarecords.com/ViewRecord.aspx?id=19 http://www.iusarecords.com/ViewRecord.aspx?id=378 http://www.iusarecords.com/ViewRecord.aspx?id=282 http://www.iusarecords.com/ViewRecord.aspx?id=478 http://www.iusarecords.com/ViewRecord.aspx?id=200 http://www.iusarecords.com/ViewRecord.aspx?id=84 http://www.iusarecords.com/ViewRecord.aspx?id=492 |
09-19-2014, 08:45 AM | #75 | |
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Location: Palm Bch County
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Re: Iusa
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Iusa has said about 50 times, in no uncertain terms that if "one side" says no, then the answer is "no". We have seen simplistic and valid analogies of .. "I don't care what your mother says, the answer is still NO" and a re-statement of this policy.. over and over,, yet we are presented with the same irrelevant argument that "one side" says yes... Are people this dense or is the objective to simply promote a spearfishing destination?
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