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View Poll Results: Is the IUSA an effective "International" Organization
Yes 25 45.45%
No 25 45.45%
No comment 5 9.09%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-18-2014, 09:18 AM   #61
Barret Harvey
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Re: IUSA/IBSRC position -- Latham Island

The problem here is that there is a further clause in the regulations that states that sport spearfishing is legal with a license that the IUSA is just ignoring.

That regulation has also been posted on this forum and a letter from the director of fisheries from Zanzibar has been sent to IUSA in which the Mainland fisheries where cc and there was no dispute that the licence allows Extreme Blue Water spearfishing to spear at Latham.

The IUSA just will not admit that they have made a mistake and are digging in despite the clear counter evidence to what they where originally told.
Told by people that don't like spearfishing.
Why was all our gear returned and why is there no issue with us spearfishing at Latham now if it was illegal.
Believe me in Africa if you do something illegal that they can catch you on they will be there to catch you.
The IUSA has been fed only half of the information by someone who has a vested interest on stopping spearfishing in this area.
IUSA have made a decision on only half the information. Really sad.
Spearfishing is legal with a licences under sport spearfishing.
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:30 AM   #62
TangaEric
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Re: Iusa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheri View Post
Now, in response to some of the discussion on this thread:

Although we normally depend on the applicants to provide documentation, we have considered all the documentation that TangaEric of OWEA charters has submitted, but none has addressed the root cause of the problem. None has changed the fact that the Ministry of Fisheries in The United Republic of Tanzania continues to tell us that it is illegal to spear in Latham Island (he keeps referring to Zanzibar).
Due to the complexity of this discussion, I feel that you need to be more thorough in your facts. For example, there is no such thing as a Ministry of Fisheries in the United Republic of Tanzania. We do however have a Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development on Mainland Tanzania and a Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries in Zanzibar. Please take note of the differences in wording, as they are in fact two different ministries within the same United Republic of Tanzania.

So which one was approached? Was the other also approached? If only the one on Mainland Tanzania was approached, was there ever an 'official' (I mean in writing, for only that can be considered official) request by the IUSA to that ministry (on Mainland Tanzania) to clarify Zanzibar's status on fisheries? Was there ever a request to describe the Territorial Sea, and how Zanzibar had jurisdiction on it in terms of fisheries? Did the IUSA ever write to the ministry on Mainland Tanzania and ask whether they disputed our spearfishing licenses or the fact that Zanzibar claims they are legal to be used at Latham Island, and get an answer in writing? I believe that the questions asked are valid and will shed light on the thoroughness of the due diligence done by the IUSA. If the answers to the questions is 'no,' then I'd like to know why such important questions were not asked. Surely had the ministry on Mainland Tanzania been asked those specific questions, their answers would have shed light on this matter once and for all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheri View Post
The Board spends hours processing applications, and I can assure you that no one has ulterior motives. The allegation that someone is protecting somebody else's record is completely false. We received record applications from a man and a woman. The man already holds the men's record, so he would just be breaking his own record -- and there is no women's dogtooth record, so there is no record to protect there. To my knowledge, every single Board member has always acted with integrity for as long as I've known them, and I've never seen anyone make a questionable decision.

We urge readers to educate themselves on the facts. United Republic of Tanzania is a large country in East Africa composed of 26 regions, and Zanzibar as one of those 26 regions.
For whatever reason, you omitted to say that; Zanzibar is actually a country, with it's own president, parliament, makes it's own laws, and is in a union with Mainland Tanzania that allows Zanzibar to retain semi autonomous rights on how it governs itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheri View Post
The coastal city of Dar es Salaam is the principal commercial city of Tanzania and the de-facto seat of most government institutions, including the Ministry of Fisheries which claims jurisdiction over Latham Island.
Again, there is no such thing as a Ministry of Fisheries (see above) in Tanzania. Assuming you mean the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development in Dar es Salaam, myself, and I am sure quite a few, would like to see this letter where the ministry claims sole jurisdiction on Latham Island. It is important for you to back this claim with credible facts, such as a letter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheri View Post
More facts -- Mr. Allard/OWEA is the sole spearfishing charter in that territory, and he has an obvious financial interest.
Although obvious to you and many others, it is still an assumption. The real reason I fight for this issue is because the IUSA is wrong; the laws of Tanzania stipulate that Zanzibar has it's own fisheries rights, it's Fisheries Regulations of 1993 stipulate that spearfishing for sport is legal, they have a right to the Territorial Sea, and Latham Island lies in the Territorial Sea. If it was not legal, why would I stick my neck out on this for so long. I am fighting for what is right and for spearfishing in our region. Although without all this rubbish I would get more business, I am still getting business and happy with it. What I am not happy about is people making false statements based on flawed information, and omitting to disclose critical information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheri View Post
Here are our findings that made us vote the way we did:
1. OWEA initially applied for a license from the correct authority (Mr. Hosea Gonza Mbilinyi, Ministry of Fisheries, United Republic of Tanzania), and was repeatedly turned down and reminded that spearfishing is an illegal activity. That agency circulated a more recent letter with the same message (see attachment above)
Again wrong ministry but we all get it by now. You refer to the 'correct authority' without disclosing that there are two correct authorities in Tanzania, each with it's own jurisdiction to it's Internal Waters (there are two) and both with jurisdiction on the Territorial Sea and Exclusive Economic Zone; one ministry on Mainland Tanzania and one on Zanzibar. One cannot fish in Zanzibar's Internal Waters without obtaining a license from Zanzibar. In other words, a license from Mainland Tanzania, issued by H. G. Mbilinyi you call the 'correct authority' would be useless in Zanzibar's Internal Waters.

Therefore, for the sake of accuracy, we applied for a license from both Mainland Tanzania and Zanzibar, as is required in the laws of Tanzania. It is also accurate to say that Mainland Tanzania did turn us down, but only once (and not repeatedly as you state). Once was enough!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheri View Post
2. OWEA then went to the Ministry of Tourism on the island of Zanzibar and got a "special permit"
Sheri, those facts are also incorrect. We went to Mussa A Jumbe, the Director of Fisheries at the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries in Zanzibar and were issued with a 'game fishing license.' That is not a "special permit" as you call it, but a sport (game) fishing license that clarifies that we are allowed to spearfish. I don't see "special permit" written on our license and it is in fact the same license issued for sport fishing. Only difference is in the ‘gear allowed’ section on the license. We eventually also went to the Commission for Tourism of the Ministry of Tourism, but not for a spearfishing license (as you can see, the license was not issued by the Ministry of Tourism, but by the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries); the Commission for Tourism approved our project to run a sport fishing charter for tourists. This was done after we already had our first spearfishing license in 2010.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheri View Post
3. OWEA admits he had his passengers sign waivers that they understand that spearfishing is illegal in that area (we have those e-mails)
4. OWEA's own website had the same verbiage -- admitting it is illegal, but don't worry, because it's only a $50 fine
This was already explained above. No need to explain it again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheri View Post
5. OWEA's charter has had several run-ins with the law -- one passenger told us they evaded authorities and had to land elsewhere, another said gun shots were fired from OWEA's boat, another incident was documented on a national TV news broadcast where their gear was confiscated (see YouTube video above)
Actually, we’ve had two. One where we avoided the encounter and the other the one that resulted in the video above. The reason we avoided the first one was already explained before. Your friends at the DYC called the fisheries department and told them we were spearfishing. The same authorities then called us to tell us they were coming after us, and that we should therefore not be there. Naturally, with clients on board, we avoided the encounter and decided to deal with them on our own, which we did. Funnily enough, we continued with our charter after that.

There was never a time we fired a shot from our boat, as you suggest. That is absolutely a lie.

The second encounter, which resulted in the video you posted, was not an official raid on us. The reason I say this is that;

1. The boat used belonged to the DYC.
2. None of the people on board had any official ID on them.
3. The armed men on board refused to look at our documents. Normally, if you are stopped by an official anywhere in the world, they should identify themselves and ask you for documents.
4. The armed men fired a shot over our boat and forced us to hand over our gear, which they took without signing for them. If it was an official raid and confiscation of gear, the law required them to issue a receipt for the gear, or to sign for it. We had pen and paper on our boat, but they refused to sign for the gear.

To me, and to the Director of Fisheries in Zanzibar, the raid was an act of piracy, an attack totally run by the DYC. There is nothing to suggest that the raid was done officially by official personnel. Once back on the Mainland, the DYC handed the confiscated gear to the authorities, who then took over the matter, investigated, found no fault on our part (see attached investigation report that can be translated), and proceeded to return the gear to us 17 months later. Here is the video of the returned gear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkeXMzdN6VY. We've been going back to Latham Island ever since, and as everyone knows, ex National Spearfishing champion Dan Silveira, Kimi Werner, and Ryan McInnis were there in November (see the latest issue of Spearing Magazine for a report on that amazing trip).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheri View Post
6. To be completely sure, I called Mr. Mbilinyi at the Ministry of Fisheries. He was courteous and professional -- confirmed that it continues to be illegal and no special permits can be granted. He added that his focus is dealing with a dynamiting problem, and until that is resolved they will not consider changing any laws. He told me more about the OWEA charter, but I will leave it at that. You can google Mr. Hosea Gonza Mbilinyi to understand his role and credentials.
Again, did you ask Mr. Mbiliyi whether the licenses and letters issued to us by Zanzibar were of any value? Or whether he would not honour them? And did you ask him to put that in writing? If so, please post so we can see Mr. Mbiliyi’s response. Other than that, all we know that Mbilinyi rejected our request for a license to spearfish off Mainland Tanzania, and that he is therefore against spearfishing. He can say anything you want over the phone, but I’m not so sure he is willing to back it up in writing.

One more thing. Did you counter check Mr. Mbilinyi’s claims with his counter part on Zanzibar, Mr. Mussa Jumbe? Mr. Jumbe is Mr. Mbilinyi’s equal and the latter has no authority over the first. Or did you simply prefer to keep the facts one sided because it better suited the result you wanted? This is not personal, just plain and simple fair questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheri View Post
Again, we don't want to get in the middle of territorial disputes.
What territorial dispute is there? Do you have something in writing that suggests there is a territorial dispute or are you just making your own conclusions? A dispute between two countries would require some form of formal address to the matter. Otherwise it is just hearsay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheri View Post
Even assuming that Zanzibar has some authority over Latham, (which is questionable because according to the 2010 Zanzibar Fisheries Act statement, the Territorial Waters extend 12 nm from the low water line along the coast of Zanzibar), this still does not meet within our standards as stated above -- that both regulatory parties would need to approve. Furthermore, we don't believe that running from the law, firing guns, having divers sign waivers acknowledging they are doing something illegal, and appearing with confiscated spearfishing equipment on national TV puts our sport in a good light.
Actually, Zanzibar does have jurisdiction over Latham Island when it comes to fisheries, and that is indisputable as it is defined in the Territorial Sea and Exclusive Economic Zone Act of 1989. Yet you refuse to acknowledge this. Furthermore, the Territorial Sea of Zanzibar is the same as the Territorial Sea of Mainland Tanzania, as defined in the act. They share it. I attach once again the map which shows how the Territorial Sea is situated.

As for both parties having to approve, that is not the case. The law of Tanzania states that Zanzibar makes it’s own laws, and that in terms of fisheries, it is autonomous completely. The Territorial Sea and Exclusive Economic Zone Act of 1989 defines the Territorial Sea that Zanzibar shares with Mainland Tanzania. Zanzibar is therefore allowed to practice it’s own fishing laws in the country’s Territorial Sea. There is no formal requirement for both sides to agree on one action. However, should one side disagree with the action of the other side, then a formal process is started so that the two can resolve the matter. Until such time, both sides continue with their business. In our case, we are licensed to spearfish off Zanzibar and continue to do so today. We are also allowed to spearfish at Latham Island and continue to do that. In fact we just got back from another charter to Latham Island and it was amazing!! See the attached pictures. Note Latham Island in the background was for the IUSA.

As for firing bullets, we have only been on the receiving end, and it is the same people that you and the IUSA use as a source of evidence that are the ones who fired a bullet over our heads. In opting to be so one sided, on their side, without even considering the other side of the story, or looking at the other facts, you are in fact against us, the spearos.

To be continued
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:31 AM   #63
TangaEric
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Re: Iusa

Continuation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheri View Post
Both IUSA and IBSRC continue to believe that these catches do not conform to our standards.
Believing that the catches do not conform to your standards is one thing; making an unsolicited public statement the way you did is totally another level. The IUSA has historically been a reputable organisation. This might be questionable at this time, but in my opinion, what the IUSA says has influence on others. In my opinion, the statement you made despite all the facts you have chosen to omit, is irresponsible. The IUSA’s mandate is to review, approve, or deny world record applications. It is also to promote spearfishing world wide. Making such an unsolicited public statement despite the overwhelming evidence to counter the IUSA’s stand is irresponsible. If the IUSA considers that spearfishing at Latham Island is illegal, then all it should do is deny applications as it receives them. What is the public statement for if not to put my company in disrepute?

Since the beginning of these ordeals, the IUSA have gone out of their way to discredit Zanzibar’s role within Tanzania as well as that of our company. Here is an excerpt from an email sent to me by one of the IUSA board members; remember, it is within the IUSA’s mission statement to ‘help promote spearfishing around the world.’

“acquiring an exclusive "special permit" to spearfish is IN MY MIND equivalent to the japanese getting a scientific collecting permit to collect whales"

Hah!!! We, the only company in East Africa trying to promote spearfishing where it was otherwise thought to be illegal should be the destination for tons of help from the IUSA who is supposed to ‘promote’ spearfishing around the world right? Instead, we are being compared to a whaling vessel!!! Forgive me, not only are all the facts wrong, but that sounds very personal. Fortunately, that person eventually apologised and provided me with a lot of constructive information to help our cause, and I totally thank him for that.

The fact that the IUSA has no explanation for the official documents from Zanzibar that allow us to spearfish for sport, absolutely nothing that would discredit those documents, and that they have no response to the only official document that the IUSA has received addressed directly to them from a government entity in Tanzania, that of the Commission for Tourism in Zanzibar, makes for the case that the IUSA has sought to use only the information to prove what they want to prove and not the truth. An independent French Presse journalist and reporter from Apnea Magazine should be a credible source right? Well, even his 2 hour interview with the Director of Fisheries in Zanzibar that confirms everything I say above seems to have no weight with the IUSA. Only what the Dar Yacht Club says, the emails of a few clients who have been with us at the beginning, and what Mr. Mbilinyi says, all who are against spearfishing in Tanzania, seem to have any weight with the IUSA. And lastly, the IUSA has no credible explanation for rescinding a world record taken far away from Latham Island some 12 months after it was awarded.

Forgive me, I have nothing personal against you Sheri, or any of the other board members for that matter, but your case on Latham Island is totally flawed and based on one sided information. There is no objectiveness nor fairness in it, and since you are a spearo and the IUSA is a spearo organisation, unless anyone can disprove in writing that we are legally spearfishing at Latham Island, the IUSA should side with us and that spearfishing is indeed legal there.
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:44 AM   #64
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Lightbulb Re: Iusa

Quote:
Originally Posted by TangaEric View Post
Forgive me, I have nothing personal against you Sheri, or any of the other board members for that matter, but your case on Latham Island is totally flawed and based on one sided information. There is no objectiveness nor fairness in it, and since you are a spearo and the IUSA is a spearo organisation, unless anyone can disprove in writing that we are legally spearfishing at Latham Island, the IUSA should side with us and that spearfishing is indeed legal there.
Hi Eric,

Here is an update on my efforts. I tried calling Tanzanian authorities a few times this week, but could not get through to the right person. As you stated somewhere in the above posts in the midst of verbosity, you agree the answer will be no and will verify this letter below that states spearfishing is illegal somewhere over there in that part of the world.

When I get through to the right person, I will ask them specifically about Latham Island and try my best to get them to put it in writing.

In the meantime, it appears to me that both IUSA and IBSRC have fulfilled their obligation to vet spearfishing world records rather well and determined the records at issue do not pass the smell test.

Tony



Last edited by SpearMax; 09-18-2014 at 10:17 PM.
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:23 PM   #65
2fishin2
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Re: Iusa

Quote:
Originally Posted by TangaEric View Post
I appreciate your support KMoose, we need all that we can have, so thank you.

There is no response however from the IUSA on why my world record taken off the north point of Zanzibar was rescinded when it is located no where near Latham Island. So I don't understand, are the IUSA saying that Latham Island is a contested area or that spearfishing out of Zanzibar is illegal, period?
IUSA I believe this to be a valid question. Can you answer this?
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Old 09-18-2014, 10:17 PM   #66
2fishin2
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Re: Iusa

Eric,

Sorry to say but this statement and attitude is a reason they will never approve a record request:

“acquiring an exclusive "special permit" to spearfish is IN MY MIND equivalent to the japanese getting a scientific collecting permit to collect whales"

This is their attitude and speaks mountains towards what is going on. Whether they admit it or not, it tells a tale.

Here's my take on this:

First off that is a childish response. In fact, there are many bodies of water around the world that have reciprocal agreements and sharing. Some contested, some not. A quick google search will show many. Each of the sharing countries have their own laws and take limits. Some will require a license for both countries/states on a single body of water, some will say one license covers all areas. Some have different take limits and some share across the agreement.

Your license is Zanzibar and you have it there because Tanzania does not allow it. It isnt rocket science to figure this one out and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. This should not be an issue, but everybody for some strange reason is. People do this all the time. They go to different parts of the world obtain a license and fish. They do it for many reasons. There are different limits everywhere and people go to where those limits favor a person's individual needs. There are commercial fishermen who have licenses in different states to benefit their business. Perfectly allowed and accepted except to the IUSA it seems.

The crap that went down at the islands with the yacht club and that specific fishing operation was years ago. No charges filed and equipment returned means to my layman mind that what happened was wrong. It was shady pure and simple. Many people in the western dont understand how life is in these undeveloped countries works. Money and corruption rules. Laws and regulations are nothing more than pieces of paper. People will enforce them only when it benefits an individual not because its the right thing to do.

You have provided ample evidence to back up and support your organization and position and still the first word out of everybody's mouth is Tanzania. Why is it so difficult to understand you are a Zanzibar businessman and not a Tanzanian? All of your government approval is from Zanzibar! The IUSA has yet to respond to any of your paperwork nor approval from Zanzibar and I find that appalling. The first word out of everyones's mouth is Tanzania. Even Tony is not listening to your argument and he is trying to call Tanzania.

I think its high time that the IUSA call Zanzibar since that is where your GOVERNMENT APPROVAL resides, NOT TANZANIA!

Unfortunately their answer and position is no and therefore, they are using sources that favor their position vs really being objective and Tony is doing the exact same thing with his phone calls. This is NOT VETTING.

In closing (for now) Eric I want to apologize for my fellow countryman's selfish attitude in trying to impose their own elitist attitudes and values in your part of the world. For trying to be fair and impartial they sure are one sided and blind.
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:04 PM   #67
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Re: IUSA/IBSRC position -- Latham Island

Quote:
Originally Posted by kengolding View Post
Wow, you seem like you had quite an adventure. While I believe what you say is true, I also see the documents that have been posted at the top of this thread, and they clearly state that you cannot spearfish.

This puts the IUSA in a precarious position. I don't see how they could approve a record when the department of fisheries clearly states that it is illegal to spearfish.

It still boils down to a dispute between two governing bodies and IUSA is wise to stay out of the dispute.

You efforts would be better spent with the two bodies over there and get them to produce a joint statement agreeing that it is legal.

I totally understand your position and why you think it is legal, but with evidence on both sides, I still think IUSA really has not choice in this matter.
Ken,

The document you are referring to is from Mainland Tanzania. The documents I am referring to are from Zanzibar. The first says no to spearfishing, the second says yes. So I understand your point of view.

However, within the laws of Tanzania, Zanzibar has a right to say 'yes' and Mainland Tanzania must respect it. That is the point I am trying to make. When Zanzibar issues a license, it has done so in agreement with the laws that Mainland Tanzania has agreed to. Zanzibar therefore has it's own right to issue the license despite whether Mainland Tanzania likes it or not.

Therefore, in order to agree with you what we need to see is a statement from Mainland Tanzania that says that the licenses issued by Zanzibar are not valid. Only then can we say that there is an official dispute in this regard. Until such point, Zanzibar is exercising it's right to issue licenses, a right that Mainland Tanzania agreed to in writing. When Mainland Tanzania will have a problem with our spearfishing at Latham Island, it will formally discuss the matter with Zanzibar and an action will be taken. In the mean time, the licenses are legal under the laws of Tanzania, and we are spearfishing legally at Latham Island. Anyone can go to Zanzibar and obtain a sport spearfishing license for their boat and use it at Latham Island. Call it what you want, but it is within the laws of the country to do so, and that is all that should matter at this point.

It's simple; Are the fish being taken by spear at Latham Island when using a license from Zanzibar? The answer is 'yes,' because Zanzibar is exercising it's right to issue spearfishing licenses through it's Fisheries Regulations of 1993, and although Mainland Tanzania has it's own Fisheries Act and Regulations, it (Mainland Tanzania) is a signatory to the agreement on the Territorial Sea and must therefore abide by it's rules, which include Zanzibar exercising it's right to do what it wants to do.

It's that simple.

I hope I am getting my point across....
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:05 PM   #68
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Re: Iusa

T.i.a.
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:15 PM   #69
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Re: Iusa

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpearMax View Post
Hi Eric,

Here is an update on my efforts. I tried calling Tanzanian authorities a few times this week, but could not get through to the right person. As you stated somewhere in the above posts in the midst of verbosity, you agree the answer will be no and will verify this letter below that states spearfishing is illegal somewhere over there in that part of the world.

When I get through to the right person, I will ask them specifically about Latham Island and try my best to get them to put it in writing.

In the meantime, it appears to me that both IUSA and IBSRC have fulfilled their obligation to vet spearfishing world records rather well and determined the records at issue do not pass the smell test.

Tony


Tony,

Who is 'the right person' you are referring to? Why do you also refuse to contact the source of the documents we have? Why are you only looking at the one side that says no?

If you are going to be fair in this matter, you need to contact Zanzibar and verify what I am saying. In doing so, you would only be the 2nd person to do so. The first was the Journalist Ronan Bourhois, and it seems that what he wrote has no meaning. Maybe what you find will be believed.

We already all know what the IUSA is saying so what's the point of asking Mainland Tanzania? Why not try something different to what the 'nay' sayers are saying?
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:27 PM   #70
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Re: Iusa

Quote:
Originally Posted by TangaEric View Post
Tony,

Who is 'the right person' you are referring to? Why do you also refuse to contact the source of the documents we have? Why are you only looking at the one side that says no?

If you are going to be fair in this matter, you need to contact Zanzibar and verify what I am saying. In doing so, you would only be the 2nd person to do so. The first was the Journalist Ronan Bourhois, and it seems that what he wrote has no meaning. Maybe what you find will be believed.

We already all know what the IUSA is saying so what's the point of asking Mainland Tanzania? Why not try something different to what the 'nay' sayers are saying?
And again, this is a Tanzanian letter directed towards a single particular yacht club as evidenced in the For addresses. This letter is not directed to Zanzibar nor Eric's company. Which of course, it could not be directed towards them as they have their own autonomous ministries and fisheries department under which the island of Zanzibar operates.

A simple google search would yield many details to this topic. People should ask the doctor more questions. Thats how I have learned the truth about all of this. Try it.

Last edited by 2fishin2; 09-18-2014 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:35 PM   #71
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Re: Iusa

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpearMax View Post
Hi Eric,

Here is an update on my efforts. I tried calling Tanzanian authorities a few times this week, but could not get through to the right person. As you stated somewhere in the above posts in the midst of verbosity, you agree the answer will be no and will verify this letter below that states spearfishing is illegal somewhere over there in that part of the world.

When I get through to the right person, I will ask them specifically about Latham Island and try my best to get them to put it in writing.

In the meantime, it appears to me that both IUSA and IBSRC have fulfilled their obligation to vet spearfishing world records rather well and determined the records at issue do not pass the smell test.

Tony
Tony,

Why is the content of this letter being ignored?
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Commission for Tourism - Sheri Daye.pdf (106.4 KB, 48 views)
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Old 09-19-2014, 04:52 AM   #72
TangaEric
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Re: Iusa

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fishin2 View Post
Eric,

Sorry to say but this statement and attitude is a reason they will never approve a record request:

“acquiring an exclusive "special permit" to spearfish is IN MY MIND equivalent to the japanese getting a scientific collecting permit to collect whales"

This is their attitude and speaks mountains towards what is going on. Whether they admit it or not, it tells a tale.

Here's my take on this:

First off that is a childish response. In fact, there are many bodies of water around the world that have reciprocal agreements and sharing. Some contested, some not. A quick google search will show many. Each of the sharing countries have their own laws and take limits. Some will require a license for both countries/states on a single body of water, some will say one license covers all areas. Some have different take limits and some share across the agreement.

Your license is Zanzibar and you have it there because Tanzania does not allow it. It isnt rocket science to figure this one out and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. This should not be an issue, but everybody for some strange reason is. People do this all the time. They go to different parts of the world obtain a license and fish. They do it for many reasons. There are different limits everywhere and people go to where those limits favor a person's individual needs. There are commercial fishermen who have licenses in different states to benefit their business. Perfectly allowed and accepted except to the IUSA it seems.

The crap that went down at the islands with the yacht club and that specific fishing operation was years ago. No charges filed and equipment returned means to my layman mind that what happened was wrong. It was shady pure and simple. Many people in the western dont understand how life is in these undeveloped countries works. Money and corruption rules. Laws and regulations are nothing more than pieces of paper. People will enforce them only when it benefits an individual not because its the right thing to do.

You have provided ample evidence to back up and support your organization and position and still the first word out of everybody's mouth is Tanzania. Why is it so difficult to understand you are a Zanzibar businessman and not a Tanzanian? All of your government approval is from Zanzibar! The IUSA has yet to respond to any of your paperwork nor approval from Zanzibar and I find that appalling. The first word out of everyones's mouth is Tanzania. Even Tony is not listening to your argument and he is trying to call Tanzania.

I think its high time that the IUSA call Zanzibar since that is where your GOVERNMENT APPROVAL resides, NOT TANZANIA!

Unfortunately their answer and position is no and therefore, they are using sources that favor their position vs really being objective and Tony is doing the exact same thing with his phone calls. This is NOT VETTING.

In closing (for now) Eric I want to apologize for my fellow countryman's selfish attitude in trying to impose their own elitist attitudes and values in your part of the world. For trying to be fair and impartial they sure are one sided and blind.
Hi Man. I really appreciate your involvement in this matter and taking the time to look through the details and double check on them.

You make a very important point in the following paragraph;

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fishin2 View Post
In fact, there are many bodies of water around the world that have reciprocal agreements and sharing. Some contested, some not. A quick google search will show many. Each of the sharing countries have their own laws and take limits. Some will require a license for both countries/states on a single body of water, some will say one license covers all areas. Some have different take limits and some share across the agreement.

Your license is Zanzibar and you have it there because Tanzania does not allow it. It isnt rocket science to figure this one out and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. This should not be an issue, but everybody for some strange reason is. People do this all the time. They go to different parts of the world obtain a license and fish. They do it for many reasons. There are different limits everywhere and people go to where those limits favor a person's individual needs. There are commercial fishermen who have licenses in different states to benefit their business. Perfectly allowed and accepted except to the IUSA it seems.
What you say above is a very good example and comparable to the situation between Zanzibar and Mainland Tanzania. The two have an agreement to share the Territorial Sea. Their agreement does not require both sides to agree, so any one of them can issue a license. One side will issue a spearfishing license while the other won't. So if the one sides issues the spearfishing license it does not mean that the license is illegal just because the other side does not agree to do the same. The one side is perfectly within it's right to issue the license, so what's the problem? All I see the IUSA having done is to find reasons to deny the world records from Latham Island. I have not seen any effort from their side to find reasons to ratify the records.

I just wonder why the IUSA don't want to double check the facts! I mean, suppose we were in a court of law, would't the jury want to see and double check facts from both sides before making their verdict? As in this analogy the IUSA would be the jury, so why don't they want to confirm the facts from Zanzibar? Why are they sticking to only one side of the story and have no explanation for the other? I just don't get it, I would expect them to search for the truth but they opt rather to stop at the first step! Is it because it's too much work and it is just easier that way? I will never understand it, but what I do understand is that they are certainly not an effective international organisation. I see that the IBSRC is very much the same, as all they've done is hide behind the IUSA, as the IBSRC have never done their own investigation.

Here is another good story about the IUSA. I have a Greek client coming this year to Latham. He recently shot a type of Mediterranean Bream that at about 3.5 kgs was much bigger than usual. The normal size for this fish is around 1 kg, so his catch was an amazing feat! He got special recognition in Greece, but the IUSA did not even consider his application because it did not weigh in at the minimum required of 10 lbs. In Dogtooth Tuna terms, his catch would be the equivalent of shooting a 110 kg doggie!!!

Now how are we supposed to believe that the IUSA is an effective international organisation when it won't even recognise world record applications for species that are legally taken elsewhere and don't meet their minimum weight limit?

We need a reall international organisation to ratify world records from all over the world, one that takes into consideration each location and fish species from those locations. I believe there is one in the making.
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Old 09-19-2014, 05:40 AM   #73
diligaf
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Re: Iusa

Eric… it seems to me that this boils down to one thing – One governing body says that spearfishing is legal activity and another says it is not – Is this a correct statement?
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Old 09-19-2014, 05:59 AM   #74
2fishin2
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Re: Iusa

I dont know if there is a minimum 10lb size. I just checked the site and there are several fish records below 10lbs.

What I did notice is there are some comical fish with records:

http://www.iusarecords.com/ViewRecord.aspx?id=19

http://www.iusarecords.com/ViewRecord.aspx?id=378

http://www.iusarecords.com/ViewRecord.aspx?id=282

http://www.iusarecords.com/ViewRecord.aspx?id=478

http://www.iusarecords.com/ViewRecord.aspx?id=200

http://www.iusarecords.com/ViewRecord.aspx?id=84

http://www.iusarecords.com/ViewRecord.aspx?id=492

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Old 09-19-2014, 08:45 AM   #75
jfjf
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Re: Iusa

Quote:
Originally Posted by TangaEric View Post
Tony,

Who is 'the right person' you are referring to? Why do you also refuse to contact the source of the documents we have? [B]Why are you only looking at the one side that says no?[/b]

If you are going to be fair in this matter, you need to contact Zanzibar and verify what I am saying. In doing so, you would only be the 2nd person to do so. The first was the Journalist Ronan Bourhois, and it seems that what he wrote has no meaning. Maybe what you find will be believed.

We already all know what the IUSA is saying so what's the point of asking Mainland Tanzania? Why not try something different to what the 'nay' sayers are saying?
This thread is ridiculous!!!

Iusa has said about 50 times, in no uncertain terms that if "one side" says no, then the answer is "no".

We have seen simplistic and valid analogies of .. "I don't care what your mother says, the answer is still NO" and a re-statement of this policy.. over and over,, yet we are presented with the same irrelevant argument that "one side" says yes... Are people this dense or is the objective to simply promote a spearfishing destination?
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