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Technical Spearfishing Technical Scuba diving is generally defined as going deeper than 130 feet. You must have the proper training for this extreme aspect of spearfishing.

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Old 08-17-2008, 08:19 PM   #46
Bulit7
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Re: How deep on air?

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Originally Posted by diligaf View Post
Built & Mike… this is a very entertaining thread! I’ve been LMAO going through the post.

On the serious side… I understand where you both are coming from and it is an argument that has been going on for years in our sport. Back in the day, before formal tech training or when tech training was in its infancy, divers simply went deeper, on air, in quest of bigger fish with no formal training. Divers learned from one another and were a close-knit group… even with their competitors.

A few died. Some of the names on the list posted by jadairiii died on the wrecks off Pompano. There is one common denominator of the ones on that list that I knew… it was there own personal choice. They loved diving, they loved spearfishing, and it was worth the risk to them.

Today… tech diving technique, procedure, and training have come a long ways. What can be learned in a course with the right instructor is invaluable and perhaps one day life saving. Not only to the student, but the knowledge past on by the student to his dive buddies and friends might one day help them.

Even with training, people will still die. I see a few people out there today, with all the proper training & cards doing technical spearfishing and I just cringe. I say to myself “it’s not a matter of if they are going to die… it is a matter of when”.

Built – I won’t say go get the proper training, even though it is the best thing to do. You are in good shape and a good diver. That puts you ahead of most. If you are going to dive deep air, my recommendation would be – remember things happen quicker the deeper you go, have good well maintained redundant gear (I would not dive a single w/pony past 200’ for the type of diving in this area), never give up in a bad situation, accept the situation for what it is – do not panic, and always keep in mind… worst-case scenario… drowning is not such a bad way to go.
Diligaf, Thanks for an informative post. I started this thread for exactly the kind of info that you posted. I am looking for advice and insight into deeper diving. I have no interest in diving trimix and such. Just maybe some deep bounces with the gear and ability to execute deco if necessary. Maybe I'm wrong but the gain in bottom time versus the time in deco is probably not worth it. The problem arrises if in a deep bounce, you happen to shoot "that fish" and all shit hits the fan. Then it is important to meet your deco obligation and have a high O2 mix to reduce deco time.
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Old 08-17-2008, 08:27 PM   #47
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Re: How deep on air?

I will add that 50% for spearfishing makes a great deco gas as it gives you
something alittle richer for off gassing and you only have to climb up to
70fsw to use it. O2 for single tank spearfishing is usless and best left on the boat. Do the math and you will see that the 02 cuts just a few minutes of time and is not worth carring. To get my 39.55 gutted AJ for the SPO yesterday I did 3 dives to 180 on 18/25 with a single 40 of 50%, plenty to spare. Ya ya ya I know sounds like alot of diving for 1 fish.

YMMV dive safe.

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Old 08-17-2008, 08:32 PM   #48
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Re: How deep on air?

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Originally Posted by dagodiver View Post
I will add that 50% for spearfishing makes a great deco gas as it gives you
something alittle richer for off gassing and you only have to climb up to
70fsw to use it. O2 for single tank spearfishing is usless and best left on the boat. Do the math and you will see that the 02 cuts just a few minutes of time and is not worth carring. To get my 39.55 gutted AJ for the SPO yesterday I did 3 dives to 180 on 18/25 with a single 40 of 50% plenty to spare.

YMMV dive safe.

Dago.
I get what you're saying, I was thinking that with a speargun in your hand, carrying a bailout AL80 and 50% to a tieoff would be a PITA.

What rig were you diving for the SPO? Do you spearfish in doubles, or is the bottom time so short that you went with a single and your 50% as bailout?

Really curious as to how you guys normally do this.

Safe Diving,
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Old 08-17-2008, 08:36 PM   #49
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Re: How deep on air?

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Fair enough, let's start over.

Back to your original question, anything below 150' on air and you are comprimising your safety. If you decide to go deeper, the best case scenario would be to do a light heliar mix or go with a higher helium mix to bring your END down. More important that narcosis though, is that you should shoot for a 1.2 to 1.3 PO2. Now I would advise against using a hypoxic mix because this really adds to your bailout schedule, not to mention task loading by adding travel gas.

A good mix would be 21/35 to 180' and 15/50 to 250'.

If you do decide to dive on air, I would try to keep your exposure to high PO2 a little as possible (minimal bottom time), and either stay within NDL's which will not give you alot of bottom time, or use the IANTD US NAVY air tables with DECO tables on the reverse. An alternate plan would be to use V-planner and write your schedule on a wrist slate. DO NOT DEVIATE FROM YOUR PLANNED BOTTOM TIME!!! that will throw your DECO schedule completely out of whack.

You should also run a separate schedule 10' deeper and 5 minutes longer. This is your "the shit hit the fan" alternate schedule.

Keep in mind that a single 120 "cave filled" to 3600 will give you about 150cf of gas. If you happen to have a freeflow problem, a 30cf pony may not give you enough bailout gas to safely reach the surface without blowing DECO. Either go to doubles, or hang an AL80 at half your depth (120'ish) so you can plan a deco cushion.

As far as deco gas, I would go with 100% o2. No need to go to 80%. 100% is more efficient in offgassing the tissues, specially if you start on that gas at 20'. Generally 80% o2 was created when someone would use a T of o2 and pump up their deco tank to 2300psi, then top off with air to get 3000PSI. No need to top off with air, you shouldn't be spending enough time on the bottom to suck down a 40 of o2 filled to 2300psi.

If you really want to learn this stuff, I will be more than happy to help you out.

DISCLAIMER: I am not telling you how to do this as a dive professional, this is a discussion on deep air diving and should not be used to plan a dive by anyone at anytime anywhere.

Safe Diving bud,
Thanks Mike!

Lots of things to consider! I am not ready or willing to incur the cost of trimix classes and fills. I see now why the double 80s are a better bet for deep dives. How about an H valve with two regs on a 120lp? Is that a viable option?

As far as calculating and writting down a schedule on a slate: would a dive computer not take care of that? Or should I have a dive plan thought out and memorized and written on a slate before doing these dives. Max depth I'm interested in is 200-220 feet MAX!

I have decided take your advice and go with an advanced deco diving course by TDI. Is that a good option?

Thanks, Lee

PS: I took down that offensive post with a pic of you in it and want to apologize for it.

And here's an offer to Louis Rossignol as well. Let's cut the bs man. I'm willing to start fresh if you are. I think we all are way to old for this middle school crap!

Last edited by Bulit7; 08-17-2008 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 08-17-2008, 08:48 PM   #50
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Re: How deep on air?

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Thanks Mike!

Lots of things to consider! I am not ready or willing to incur the cost of trimix classes and fills. I see now why the double 80s are a better bet for deep dives. How about an H valve with two regs on a 120lp? Is that a viable option?
That would be a viable option, but even better for your needs, would be your pony with enough gas to safely get you to your emergency bailout hanging on the line. Actually, DAGODIVER should chime in on his setup, as it will probably differ greatly from what I would consider routine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulit7 View Post
As far as calculating and writting down a schedule on a slate: would a dive computer not take care of that? Or should I have a dive plan thought out and memorized and written on a slate before doing these dives. Max depth I'm interested in is 200-220 feet MAX!
A dive computer will run a deco schedule, but just as I hate it when batteries die in my TV remote, it's even worse when it takes out your deco computer

Don't memorize the schedule, just write down your stops and the time at those depths, and stick with it. Depending on your bottom time, your stops should be minimal. Again, DAGODIVER should have a good idea on the bottom times that you guys encounter while shooting fish.

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Originally Posted by Bulit7 View Post
I have decided take your advice and go with an advanced deco diving course by TDI. Is that a good option?

Thanks, Lee
Absolutely a great idea.
Also, remember that the agency really doesn't matter. It's all alphabet soup. If you are happy with the instructor that you chose, you will be happy with the class. Good luck, I think you will really enjoy this aspect of diving.

Safe Diving bud,
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Old 08-17-2008, 09:06 PM   #51
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Re: How deep on air?

Thanks guys!

Dago, I never called you because I did not want to waste your time with dumb questions!! I will try to learn more about this type of diving and get back to you when I actually know a little more then what I know now. Thanks again!!
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Old 08-17-2008, 09:08 PM   #52
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Re: How deep on air?

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston View Post
I get what you're saying, I was thinking that with a speargun in your hand, carrying a bailout AL80 and 50% to a tieoff would be a PITA.

What rig were you diving for the SPO? Do you spearfish in doubles, or is the bottom time so short that you went with a single and your 50% as bailout?

Really curious as to how you guys normally do this.

Safe Diving,

I will speek for myself, I always dive doubles as I hate to change my gear to singles and the only singles I have are my deco bottles.
this weekend i was diving a set of LP85's with 18/25 in them and a single 40 of 50% under my left arm. I did three dives with the same tanks and had plenty off gas left over. I was keeping the BT's to 15 or less and trying to stay as high up in the water as I could. I run tables and have a computer also. Believe it or not diving the same rig is alot easier than changing tanks after every dive.
This is how i deal with the tables.

YMMV

Dago.
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Old 08-17-2008, 09:10 PM   #53
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Re: How deep on air?

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Thanks guys!

Dago, I never called you because I did not want to waste your time with dumb questions!! I will try to learn more about this type of diving and get back to you when I actually know a little more then what I know now. Thanks again!!
There are no stupid questions, you can give a ring anytime and I will answer anything I can. Mike E. is a wealth of knowledge and im sure will answer also.

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Old 08-17-2008, 09:19 PM   #54
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Re: How deep on air?

[quote]And here's an offer to Louis Rossignol as well. Let's cut the bs man. I'm willing to start fresh if you are. I think we all are way to old for this middle school crap![quote]

I have the least amount of training on this board, I only know what I know. If you want to dive deep in my part of the world, you learn how to swim fast!

I'm not challenging you, just stating facts.
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Old 08-17-2008, 09:24 PM   #55
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Re: How deep on air?

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I have the least amount of training on this board, I only know what I know. If you want to dive deep in my part of the world, you learn how to swim fast!

I'm not challenging you, just stating facts.

I don't care about that. I'm talking about the trash talkin. I'm exteding you my hand and say we let bygones be bygones and talk with civility to each other from here on. Your call.
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Old 08-17-2008, 09:27 PM   #56
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Re: How deep on air?

You got it,
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Old 08-17-2008, 09:29 PM   #57
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Re: How deep on air?

[quote=Louis Rossignol;768362][quote]And here's an offer to Louis Rossignol as well. Let's cut the bs man. I'm willing to start fresh if you are. I think we all are way to old for this middle school crap!
Quote:

I have the least amount of training on this board, I only know what I know. If you want to dive deep in my part of the world, you learn how to swim fast!

I'm not challenging you, just stating facts.

I would think that every time you get in the water it is another "training" dive so with that said I would guess you have more "training" then anybody I can think of. I will take experience anyday of the week.


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Old 08-18-2008, 08:08 AM   #58
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Re: How deep on air?

Merit badges?We don't need no stinkin' merit badges!
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Old 08-18-2008, 09:28 AM   #59
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Re: How deep on air?

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This is how i deal with the tables.
OMG, DUDE!!! I friggin love that!! I'm diving Eagle's nest this saturday, and I will wear "DECO FINS" That should get one hell of a response from the other cave divers

I assume the black is on backgas, the blue is on 50% and the red is on 100%? or am I missreading it?

Talk soon bud,
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Old 08-18-2008, 10:07 AM   #60
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Re: How deep on air?

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OMG, DUDE!!! I friggin love that!! I'm diving Eagle's nest this saturday, and I will wear "DECO FINS" That should get one hell of a response from the other cave divers

I assume the black is on backgas, the blue is on 50% and the red is on 100%? or am I missreading it?

Talk soon bud,

All my buddys were tired of holding my slate far enough away for me to read it.! Check roger out on the colors.

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