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Old 06-11-2018, 01:30 PM   #1
TheKeeneroo
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Lightbulb Closed to Open Muzzle Conversion?

I recently had a ling break part of my muzzle bridge (the part that makes it "closed") on my Omer Cayman 75. It still shoots, but is missing a chunk and has a crack that goes through the bridge. I'm wondering how to best convert it to an open muzzle and the only article I can find on the forum is this one. The only problem is that superfrog's modification worries me that the pin he installed will catch the line and not release it like it should. I'm wondering what I could use that has some curvature to it like on the Mako guns. Do you have any advice on how to do this? Preferably with pictures? Doesn't seem to be a lot on the internet about it (that I can find). Thanks for the help!

My type of muzzle


Where mine broke


Superfrog's solution that I'm not confident will work:

Last edited by TheKeeneroo; 06-11-2018 at 02:17 PM. Reason: to include photos
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Old 06-11-2018, 02:11 PM   #2
Behslayer
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Re: Closed to Open Muzzle Conversion?

pic of what you are starting with?
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Old 06-11-2018, 02:17 PM   #3
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Re: Closed to Open Muzzle Conversion?

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Originally Posted by Behslayer View Post
pic of what you are starting with?
I updated my post with photos.
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Old 06-12-2018, 02:09 AM   #4
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Re: Closed to Open Muzzle Conversion?

You don't want that front line guide sticking up like that, it should have the end pointing towards the target sort of like the horns of a bull. The way it is in the picture it is just asking to snag some line or band wishbones.
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:49 AM   #5
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Re: Closed to Open Muzzle Conversion?

The Keneeroo,

Relax. This is eaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasy. Some guns even have that "bridge" part removable for the open muzzle lovers. Long before that, some of us used to open them ourselves. Last one I recall modifying was a Picasso Century.

First, remove any burrs or left over plastic bits from the bridge part that got broken.

Second, rig your gun with TWO WRAPS of mono and do the following:
First wrap follows the traditional route: end of shaft, muzzle, back to the line release and all the way to the muzzle again. Second wrap, and this is the KEY, goes under the muzzle on one side, over the shaft, down to the other side of the muzzle, back to the line release and to the muzzle again.

The second wrap of mono is what holds your shaft in place. I have been doing this for years with a closed muzzle (Sporasub Viper) just to avoid noises from the shaft banging arround when I put the gun upside down. Works great.

Will upload a drawing as soon as possible.



Mikel

Last edited by Mikel_24; 06-13-2018 at 01:45 AM. Reason: Add drawing
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:08 AM   #6
TheKeeneroo
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Re: Closed to Open Muzzle Conversion?

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Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
You don't want that front line guide sticking up like that, it should have the end pointing towards the target sort of like the horns of a bull. The way it is in the picture it is just asking to snag some line or band wishbones.
That is exactly what I thought! I went out and got some 3/32 stainless steel round bar to bend like a horn of a bull. I'll drill a hole facing forward and make it so it won't snag.
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:11 AM   #7
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Lightbulb Re: Closed to Open Muzzle Conversion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikel_24 View Post
The Keneeroo,

Relax. This is eaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasy. Some guns even have that "bridge" part removable for the open muzzle lovers. Long before that, some of us used to open them ourselves. Last one I recall modifying was a Picasso Century.

First, remove any burrs or left over plastic bits from the bridge part that got broken.

Second, rig your gun with TWO WRAPS of mono and do the following:
First wrap follows the traditional route: end of shaft, muzzle, back to the line release and all the way to the muzzle again. Second wrap, and this is the KEY, goes under the muzzle on one side, over the shaft, down to the other side of the muzzle, back to the line release and to the muzzle again.

The second wrap of mono is what holds your shaft in place. I have been doing this for years with a closed muzzle (Sporasub Viper) just to avoid noises from the shaft banging arround when I put the gun upside down. Works great.

Will upload a drawing as soon as possible.

Mikel
No need for the drawing. This totally makes sense. I already have my spear double wrapped... I was just stuck in my mindset that the wrap over had to be on the first pass... the second pass makes way more sense.. I don't even need to drill a hole or use metal! hahah mind blowing how eaaaasssssy it is. thanks for the advice. this was perfect.
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:47 AM   #8
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Re: Closed to Open Muzzle Conversion?

I am glad it was clear enough. However I added the picture because I had it ready anyway!

Now go and enjoy that gun!
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:30 AM   #9
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Thumbs up Re: Closed to Open Muzzle Conversion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikel_24 View Post
The Keneeroo,

Relax. This is eaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasy. Some guns even have that "bridge" part removable for the open muzzle lovers. Long before that, some of us used to open them ourselves. Last one I recall modifying was a Picasso Century.

First, remove any burrs or left over plastic bits from the bridge part that got broken.

Second, rig your gun with TWO WRAPS of mono and do the following:
First wrap follows the traditional route: end of shaft, muzzle, back to the line release and all the way to the muzzle again. Second wrap, and this is the KEY, goes under the muzzle on one side, over the shaft, down to the other side of the muzzle, back to the line release and to the muzzle again.

The second wrap of mono is what holds your shaft in place. I have been doing this for years with a closed muzzle (Sporasub Viper) just to avoid noises from the shaft banging arround when I put the gun upside down. Works great.

Will upload a drawing as soon as possible.



Mikel
You sir are a genius. I did the surgery to remove the bridge last night. Here is the result. It appears to work flawlessly. I'll find out when diving for some big lings this weekend.




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Old 06-14-2018, 12:49 AM   #10
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Re: Closed to Open Muzzle Conversion?

Cool way to avoid using a front line guide.

I'd love to get away from Line Guides on an open track gun. Wrapping in the way you describe can allow for just using recesses. But.. I wonder if this does not in crease the chance of a band tangle? Using a standard wrap, the wraps are all below the gun. In this way the shaft has to pass under the Top line which is the middle of the Shooting line. Seems like a band tangle waiting to happen. Especially if the fish is shot close up. Hopefully someone will tell me it's not an issue because I would like to be able to get away from line guides. In this drawing, your shooting line from the shaft goes around the muzzle captured in a recess, back to the Line release, up around the muzzle in a recess, around the top of the shaft and back down to the line release again.
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Old 06-14-2018, 02:29 AM   #11
Mikel_24
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Re: Closed to Open Muzzle Conversion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Behslayer View Post
Cool way to avoid using a front line guide.

I'd love to get away from Line Guides on an open track gun. Wrapping in the way you describe can allow for just using recesses. But.. I wonder if this does not in crease the chance of a band tangle? Using a standard wrap, the wraps are all below the gun. In this way the shaft has to pass under the Top line which is the middle of the Shooting line. Seems like a band tangle waiting to happen. Especially if the fish is shot close up. Hopefully someone will tell me it's not an issue because I would like to be able to get away from line guides. In this drawing, your shooting line from the shaft goes around the muzzle captured in a recess, back to the Line release, up around the muzzle in a recess, around the top of the shaft and back down to the line release again.
Behslayer,

So far I have tried this setup with Sporasub Viper/Aspic muzzles (which are the same) to avoid noises, with the aforementioned Picasso Century muzzle (I cut the bridge myself, then they started selling it like that). the Picasso Century was even rigged with two bands. I have yet to experience a band tangle.

In your picture the line is always the same color so I am not sure if the loop over the shaft belongs to the first or the second wrap. It must be the second wrap. Lets see:

First wrap (as usual) from the end of the shaft (or dog house, or sharkfin or whatever) to the muzzle, down the muzzle recess, back to the line release and back to the front. That's were it ends.

Second wrap (continuation of first wrap), it goes up through the muzzle recess, over the shaft, down through the muzzle recess on the other side and back to the line release. Then back to the muzzle and there, you either tie the mono to the reel line or to the line attachment (solid anchor) to the gun stock if you are not using a reel.

I don't see how the bands could tangle with the line if you are essentially rouiting the line in the same way as if you were using line guides with a standar wrap. The second wrap holding the shaft stays away from the bands.

That picture of yours looks good. Do you 3D design your guns before making chips? Do you use a 3D router? A friend of mine and me have about 2k in materials to put together a CNC router... and I always thought it would be cool to shape guns on it... but we haven't put it together yet!

Mikel
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Old 06-14-2018, 10:12 AM   #12
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Re: Closed to Open Muzzle Conversion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Behslayer View Post
Cool way to avoid using a front line guide.

I'd love to get away from Line Guides on an open track gun. Wrapping in the way you describe can allow for just using recesses. But.. I wonder if this does not in crease the chance of a band tangle? Using a standard wrap, the wraps are all below the gun. In this way the shaft has to pass under the Top line which is the middle of the Shooting line. Seems like a band tangle waiting to happen. Especially if the fish is shot close up. Hopefully someone will tell me it's not an issue because I would like to be able to get away from line guides. In this drawing, your shooting line from the shaft goes around the muzzle captured in a recess, back to the Line release, up around the muzzle in a recess, around the top of the shaft and back down to the line release again.
I agree with Mikel about the render of the image. I'd love to have a custom shaped gun! Ps. I'll let you know about tangles on Saturday!
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Old 06-14-2018, 02:01 PM   #13
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Re: Closed to Open Muzzle Conversion?

Essentially you are folding the shooting line over the shaft at the mid point of the shooting line. We've done plenty of filming in slow motion to show what happens to your lines when you shoot.

Yes, I draw everything before making. If you can really draw it you can make it. That goes for all the product range.

I did think through the idea a bit further. My design is a bit different from the muzzle you are working with but the concepts are the same.
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Old 06-14-2018, 02:25 PM   #14
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Re: Closed to Open Muzzle Conversion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Behslayer View Post
Essentially you are folding the shooting line over the shaft at the mid point of the shooting line. We've done plenty of filming in slow motion to show what happens to your lines when you shoot.

Yes, I draw everything before making. If you can really draw it you can make it. That goes for all the product range.

I did think through the idea a bit further. My design is a bit different from the muzzle you are working with but the concepts are the same.
can you link to those videos?
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Old 07-23-2018, 05:40 AM   #15
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Re: Closed to Open Muzzle Conversion?

hey Jon thanks for sharing those shooting line muzzle sketches! bloody great to see those ideas on paper, so to speak

always looking for way to avoid having line guide on top of the muzzle, whether it be pin or plate [and stainless muzzle cage a la Abellan just adds too much weight up for'd when working with dense hardwood]

moving the pin around and down onto the front of the muzzle achieves this, and works with spectra, but not with the 2mm LP hard mono, and 1.8mm coated cable I use here.

I always end up back with having the pin or plate on top. at the moment pin, cos too lazy to grind out a plate to scew in

great to see all these ideas being slung around on the Board
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