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Old 03-31-2008, 10:06 AM   #46
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Re: Gulf Good News! - Proposed grouper restrictions could be eased

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Old 03-31-2008, 11:02 AM   #47
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Re: Gulf Good News! - Proposed grouper restrictions could be eased

Bill my motivation for posting here is to do just one thing....to protect and promote the sport of spearfishing. Your motivation for posting here is clear by your post history....to degrade the image of the FRA and to ensure that jewfish remain a protected species for all eternity. The first part of that purpose seems to stem from the fact that you see the FRA as a threat to your goal of keeping jewfish off limits perpetually. The recreational sector of fisheries management faces many problems that supersede establishing either a season or a limited harvest for jewfish. With limited time, money and staff the FRA must concentrate on those issues which require its most urgent attention.

The fervor with which you seek to further your agenda seems to have no limits. Your latest attempt here demonstrates that there is no method which is "out of bounds" for you and your followers. To go all "chicken little" on us and suggest that scuba spearfishing is a likely casualty if jewfish are ever opened is a thinly veiled attempt by you to garner support for your agenda. I notice you never mention how many of the supposed powerheaded jewfish carcasses there were or where they have been found. The rabid determination of you and your followers leads me to conclude that it may be one of your own who is responsible for a few dead or dying jewfish that occasionally appear for opportune photo-ops.

You have demonstrated repeatedly that no sacrifice is too big for your cause and a few dead jewfish to protect the lot may seem like a small price to pay for jewfish petters. The ocean is a big place full of animals ready to reintroduce any dead organisms back into the foodchain yet somehow your precious jewfish with incriminating "evidence" against **********s show up conveniently and almost on demand.

The day for a scientific sampling of these fish may be in the near future. Encouraging it would allow scientists and the public who really want to have a clear picture of the status of the population to get some results....not endless stall tactics. If anyone else here has any doubt about my characterization of Bill's anti FRA stance and his willingness to offer up this sport as a sacrificial lamb for his cause I encourage you to inspect his post history for yourself.....96 posts and at least 90 of them are anti FRA or directly degrade the image of **********s for the world to see.
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Old 03-31-2008, 11:11 AM   #48
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Re: Gulf Good News! - Proposed grouper restrictions could be eased

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Originally Posted by apexpredator View Post
.... The rabid determination of you and your followers leads me to conclude that it may be one of your own who is responsible for a few dead or dying jewfish that occasionally appear for opportune photo-ops.....
This is certainly possible, but do you have ANY evidence of it? Are you calling BS on the thread that Randy Jordan posted a week ago (and since deleted) about witnessing a commercial diver, popping one?
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Old 03-31-2008, 02:19 PM   #49
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Re: Gulf Good News! - Proposed grouper restrictions could be eased

jfjf:
It was not me. I was in the Keys at the time! Bill, where were you?
Don
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Old 03-31-2008, 05:39 PM   #50
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Re: Gulf Good News! - Proposed grouper restrictions could be eased

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Originally Posted by Biminibill View Post
FRA-SOFA is not a marriage made in heaven.
I think even Denny will tell you that it was a funding alliance, not a change in the FRA opinion on that industry, don't you think? I would also go as far to say that it was a move that he knew was going to rub some people the wrong way and cause him grief in the process but figured the reward would be worth the risk.

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Originally Posted by Biminibill View Post
The issues you mention that FRA has worked on are all to do with keeping something open, not protecting it from abuse. ....not doing more to portray FRA as an advocate for the resource as well as the user is inadequate.
Isn't working with, not for, SOFA for funding, yet clearly taking a stance on the actions of SOFA, to some degree, showing intentions for the criteria you mentioned in the above paragraph. That along with the FRA trying to coordinate a buyout of the long line gear? Although not as active as most would want, it does constitute the attempt to help the fish stock and not just the taking of the fish creel, no?


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Rich:
You are often judged by who you associate with. Aligning yourself with SOFA, I think, was a big mistake and a loss of credibility.
Even if it were funding for stock assessments? I am not saying whether it was wrong or right. What I am asking is if it was done openly for funding to support the costs of a bio only and they still keep their stance on not approving of the methods of the long line industry, do you really think it is going to come back to bite them?
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Old 04-01-2008, 01:18 AM   #51
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Re: Gulf Good News! - Proposed grouper restrictions could be eased

Good questions Craig!

I have finally read through this evolving thread and have a few friendly observations. They are just opinions worth about two cents each, so I hope nobody gets worked up about them.

1.) Banning scuba spearfishing to punish a super small set of law breakers is highly unlikely. Please note that freedive spearos can break the same law as evidenced by the fellow who died last year in the keys spearing a GG. Therefore any such ban would have to apply to all forms of spearfishing free and scuba. Not gonna happen in my opinion.

2.) I do not care what other countries may have done with scuba spearfishing. The political climates and ancestral heritages of divers in many of those countries were extremely biased in favor of freedive spearfishing and against scuba spearfishing. The analogy is not relevant. The USA has a strong and proud heritage of scuba spearfishing.

3.) Spearfishing is a growth sector of the diving and fishing industries. If anything, we will see more spearfishing as it supplants over other forms of take method because of its environmentally-friendly quality of selectivity.

4.) Longlining is one of the least desirable take methods because of its environmental UN-friendliness. Society puts up with it for some strange reasons. I am hopeful that the FRA, CCA, RFA and other fishing advocates will continue to work toward the goal of less longlining everywhere.

5.) FRA made a temporary alliance with SOFA on the Gag issue for expediency to get funding to hire a scientist that SOFA has worked with before. Some people may not like that alliance. To give the commercial longliner some credit, I did see Bob Spaeth speak against the recreational restrictions at the big Gulf Council meeting I went to in St. Pete. Let's wait and see what Dr. Trevor Kenchington presents at the next Council meeting and how the Council reacts before calling that alliance wrong or suspect. Forming alliances with different stakeholder groups on certain issues while disagreeing on other issues is not necessarily a bad thing. I can foresee temporary alliances happening between fishing groups and non-radical environmental groups on certain issues as well.

6.) Intelligent debate and presentation of contrarian viewpoints are a good thing. There is plenty of that in this thread. However sometimes posts get a bit testy. Let's keep it relatively civil. Yes, Rich won the bet that Bill would bring up GG as that is one of his passionate issues along with lemon sharks. No, I do not think Bill will back down on his singular issue approach. Yes, Emil postulated that a GG killing conspiracy was happening with no evidence. No, I do not think Don or Bill have anything to do with such GG killing. Yes, I believe Randy Jordan (owner of Emerald Dive Charters) when he told me the name of the commercial diver who powerheaded a GG. No, I do not think calling him out publically is the right thing to do at this time. Yes, I am trying a direct reasoning approach with that person to try and get him to stop such behavior. No, I do not think illegal GG killing by hook and line and by spear or powerhead is as extensive as some might think. Yes, as I stated at the start of this thread I believe getting attendance at the meetings is a good thing for the Gulf Gag issues. Thank you Denny, Rich, the whole FRA team and all other meeting attendees for your efforts!

It is getting late and I am burned out.

That is my story so far and I am sticking to it.

If anyone chooses to pile on me, I may not be able to respond until tomorrow night.

Good night, Tony
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Last edited by SpearMax; 04-01-2008 at 01:33 AM.
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Old 04-01-2008, 06:48 AM   #52
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Re: Gulf Good News! - Proposed grouper restrictions could be eased

Tony:
If I read your post correctly you know the diver that is powerheading the jewfish off your area and have not turned him in. Instead you are trying a "direct reasoning approach." Give me a break! Turn him in and get him off the water. He is an embarassment and a problem to al spearfishermen.
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Old 04-01-2008, 07:06 AM   #53
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Cool Re: Gulf Good News! - Proposed grouper restrictions could be eased

Quote:
Originally Posted by Summerland Key View Post
Tony:
If I read your post correctly you know the diver that is powerheading the jewfish off your area and have not turned him in. Instead you are trying a "direct reasoning approach." Give me a break! Turn him in and get him off the water. He is an embarassment and a problem to al spearfishermen.
Don, you might want to read Bill's post on what is required for an arrest. I was not there and I believe his name has already been turned in by those who were. You are right that this one offender brings us all down a bit, but most logical people realize he does not represent what the masses and masses of law-abiding spearos are all about. Tony
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Old 04-01-2008, 07:16 AM   #54
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Re: Gulf Good News! - Proposed grouper restrictions could be eased

Quote:
Originally Posted by apexpredator View Post
Bill my motivation for posting here is to do just one thing....to protect and promote the sport of spearfishing. Your motivation for posting here is clear by your post history....to degrade the image of the FRA and to ensure that jewfish remain a protected species for all eternity. The first part of that purpose seems to stem from the fact that you see the FRA as a threat to your goal of keeping jewfish off limits perpetually. The recreational sector of fisheries management faces many problems that supersede establishing either a season or a limited harvest for jewfish. With limited time, money and staff the FRA must concentrate on those issues which require its most urgent attention.

The fervor with which you seek to further your agenda seems to have no limits. Your latest attempt here demonstrates that there is no method which is "out of bounds" for you and your followers. To go all "chicken little" on us and suggest that scuba spearfishing is a likely casualty if jewfish are ever opened is a thinly veiled attempt by you to garner support for your agenda. I notice you never mention how many of the supposed powerheaded jewfish carcasses there were or where they have been found. The rabid determination of you and your followers leads me to conclude that it may be one of your own who is responsible for a few dead or dying jewfish that occasionally appear for opportune photo-ops.

You have demonstrated repeatedly that no sacrifice is too big for your cause and a few dead jewfish to protect the lot may seem like a small price to pay for jewfish petters. The ocean is a big place full of animals ready to reintroduce any dead organisms back into the foodchain yet somehow your precious jewfish with incriminating "evidence" against **********s show up conveniently and almost on demand.

The day for a scientific sampling of these fish may be in the near future. Encouraging it would allow scientists and the public who really want to have a clear picture of the status of the population to get some results....not endless stall tactics. If anyone else here has any doubt about my characterization of Bill's anti FRA stance and his willingness to offer up this sport as a sacrificial lamb for his cause I encourage you to inspect his post history for yourself.....96 posts and at least 90 of them are anti FRA or directly degrade the image of **********s for the world to see.
Apex, just a couple things. One, you obviously don't have a clue as to what really goes on, both on the water and in the halls of regulation. Secondly, you obviously don't know how to read. Third, you still have your head up your a--. Teaching a pig to sing is a frustrating and self-defeating venture, therefore I won't deal with you any more. If everything does get shut down I at least will gain a certain amount of satisfaction from the look of astonishment on your face
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Old 04-01-2008, 07:35 AM   #55
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Re: Gulf Good News! - Proposed grouper restrictions could be eased

Tony:
Yes, I know how difficult it is to get some one convicted of a violation such as this. Still, the FWC should be notified and they can make the call, and you say this was possibly done, good.
Even if an arrest is not made it will show the FWC that we are trying to self police our own industry (spearfishing) and not trying to cover something up, which would appear to be the case. Especially, if there are photos, as was mentioned earlier in on this thread. What happened to the photos that were posted?
I am leaving for about 4 days on a hunting trip so this will be my last post for a while.
Again, if the FWC was notified and provided with the photos, good job. If not, I think it is time to call them as they most certainly are reading this thread. Don
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Old 04-01-2008, 07:51 AM   #56
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Re: Gulf Good News! - Proposed grouper restrictions could be eased

Had to respond to this one, Tony

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpearMax View Post
Good questions Craig!

I have finally read through this evolving thread and have a few friendly observations. They are just opinions worth about two cents each, so I hope nobody gets worked up about them.

1.) Banning scuba spearfishing to punish a super small set of law breakers is highly unlikely. Please note that freedive spearos can break the same law as evidenced by the fellow who died last year in the keys spearing a GG. Therefore any such ban would have to apply to all forms of spearfishing free and scuba. Not gonna happen in my opinion.I disagree, Tony...plenty of examples around the world. I strongly suspect that the powerheaded jewfish being found are the work of people with scuba and that freedivers are not interested in going down 70-100 feet simply to powerhead a jewfish.

2.) I do not care what other countries may have done with scuba spearfishing. The political climates and ancestral heritages of divers in many of those countries were extremely biased in favor of freedive spearfishing and against scuba spearfishing. The analogy is not relevant. The USA has a strong and proud heritage of scuba spearfishing.What other countries are doing is extremely relevant and this "strong and proud heritage of scuba spearfishing" only holds water among those who do it. The majority of fishers don't do it and no one outside of the sport gives a damn about it, except to be jealous of that nice grouper they see a diver bring up when they themselves may be getting skunked. This country had "a long and proud heritage" of seine netting and numerous other "traditions" that are banned now.

3.) Spearfishing is a growth sector of the diving and fishing industries. If anything, we will see more spearfishing as it supplants over other forms of take method because of its environmentally-friendly quality of selectivity.I agree with you that spearfishing is excellent for selectivity but the growth sector of spearfishing is slower than that for non-consumptive diving leaving the sport in an ever greater minority. Keeping the sport open will require good behavior on the part of all participants

4.) Longlining is one of the least desirable take methods because of its environmental UN-friendliness. Society puts up with it for some strange reasons. I am hopeful that the FRA, CCA, RFA and other fishing advocates will continue to work toward the goal of less longlining everywhere. Amen

5.) FRA made a temporary alliance with SOFA on the Gag issue for expediency to get funding to hire a scientist that SOFA has worked with before. Some people may not like that alliance. To give the commercial longliner some credit, I did see Bob Spaeth speak against the recreational restrictions at the big Gulf Council meeting I went to in St. Pete. Let's wait and see what Dr. Trevor Kenchington presents at the next Council meeting and how the Council reacts before calling that alliance wrong or suspect. Forming alliances with different stakeholder groups on certain issues while disagreeing on other issues is not necessarily a bad thing. I can foresee temporary alliances happening between fishing groups and non-radical environmental groups on certain issues as well. If FRA can stick to their guns and not let this become a "I'll wash your back if you wash mine" situation , then great. It's a tough scenario.

6.) Intelligent debate and presentation of contrarian viewpoints are a good thing. There is plenty of that in this thread. However sometimes posts get a bit testy. Let's keep it relatively civil. Yes, Rich won the bet that Bill would bring up GG as that is one of his passionate issues along with lemon sharks. No, I do not think Bill will back down on his singular issue approach. Yes, Emil postulated that a GG killing conspiracy was happening with no evidence. No, I do not think Don or Bill have anything to do with such GG killing. Yes, I believe Randy Jordan (owner of Emerald Dive Charters) when he told me the name of the commercial diver who powerheaded a GG. No, I do not think calling him out publically is the right thing to do at this time. Yes, I am trying a direct reasoning approach with that person to try and get him to stop such behavior. You call this "self-policing", Tony? He should be busted. No one on these forums, regardless of their position has advocated looking the other way when someone illegally kills a jewfish. A commercial guy knows exactly what he's doing and for his own profit killed a jewfish to get it out of the way. Reason with him? BUST HIM!No, I do not think illegal GG killing by hook and line and by spear or powerhead is as extensive as some might think. How much diving have you been doing lately on the known jewfish gathering sites in Palm Beach and Martin Counties, Tony?Yes, as I stated at the start of this thread I believe getting attendance at the meetings is a good thing for the Gulf Gag issues. Thank you Denny, Rich, the whole FRA team and all other meeting attendees for your efforts!

It is getting late and I am burned out.

That is my story so far and I am sticking to it.

If anyone chooses to pile on me, I may not be able to respond until tomorrow night.

Good night, Tony
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Old 04-01-2008, 07:58 AM   #57
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Re: Gulf Good News! - Proposed grouper restrictions could be eased

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Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
This is certainly possible, but do you have ANY evidence of it? Are you calling BS on the thread that Randy Jordan posted a week ago (and since deleted) about witnessing a commercial diver, popping one?

Jim, can anyone state why that post was deleted?
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Old 04-01-2008, 07:59 AM   #58
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Re: Gulf Good News! - Proposed grouper restrictions could be eased

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Teaching a pig to sing is a frustrating and self-defeating venture, therefore I won't deal with you any more. If everything does get shut down I at least will gain a certain amount of satisfaction from the look of astonishment on your face
Tony or SB Mods,

Would the quoted "eloquent" passage above by this individual be considered a personal attack? Is this a breach of the board's "Personal attack policy". Refering to a respected member of the diving community as a "pig" sounds quite personal to me. Or is the Personal Attack Policy just semantics to be applied selectively?
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Old 04-01-2008, 08:06 AM   #59
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Re: Gulf Good News! - Proposed grouper restrictions could be eased

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Originally Posted by Biminibill View Post
Apex, just a couple things. One, you obviously don't have a clue as to what really goes on, both on the water and in the halls of regulation. Secondly, you obviously don't know how to read. Third, you still have your head up your a--. Teaching a pig to sing is a frustrating and self-defeating venture, therefore I won't deal with you any more. If everything does get shut down I at least will gain a certain amount of satisfaction from the look of astonishment on your face
Quite frankly Billy Boy, if this is the best comeback you have for Apex's post #47, then it is quite pathetic. Not too surprising. Way to take the high road and call the man a "pig" rather than owning up to what your true intentions are. Smear Merchant Extrodinaire.
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Old 04-01-2008, 08:12 AM   #60
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Re: Gulf Good News! - Proposed grouper restrictions could be eased

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biminibill View Post
Apex, just a couple things. One, you obviously don't have a clue as to what really goes on, both on the water and in the halls of regulation. Secondly, you obviously don't know how to read. Third, you still have your head up your a--. Teaching a pig to sing is a frustrating and self-defeating venture, therefore I won't deal with you any more. If everything does get shut down I at least will gain a certain amount of satisfaction from the look of astonishment on your face
When I see a response from you full of frustration, anger, and vulgarity then I know I am provoking the real you. Thanks for letting it spill out in public. When the chips are down for the recreational sector for gags (the original topic on this thread) and they need a advocate in the process we'll see who makes the difference (FRA) and who's full of "it". When anything or "everything" as you say gets "shut down" in this tug of war maybe people will begin to realize which side you are pulling for. The good news is that you are for the most part a one trick pony. About "dealing" with me...like it or not I'm keeping an eye on you....let me know when you have something better in response other than the sky is falling or your delusion that **********s are obsessed with whipping jewfish off the planet.
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