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Old 02-11-2011, 06:44 PM   #1
Ray Odor
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Gandy Girl, Help

Gandy Girl, Help

Thank you for the update on Spearboard.

Now, maybe, with your involvement with the dreaded commission, you may be able to lend a helping hand.
Since no one, including the commissioners, can believe the methods used to determine fish stock are valid, why not go high tech?
This past year we watched pictures, live, taken from 5 miles under the surface of the G.O.M.
Can you visualize a marine fisheries vessel equipped with an underwater camera that could be lowered over selected areas i.e. designated wrecks and high structures in the Gulf and Atlantic, on a timely basis, and recorded counts made during each month of the habitation.
You may be even able to actually see the mass'es of Giant Goliath devour Grouper, Snapper, Grunts, Lobster, Octopus and any number of desired sealife.
Just think, you would then be able to verify what we divers have been telling you all along, without even getting your feet wet.

Ray
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Old 02-11-2011, 06:56 PM   #2
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Re: Gandy Girl, Help

But Mr. Odor that would show them what the DON"T WANT TO KNOW,if they keep using stonhenge data than Mr. Crabtree can keep his job shutting down fisheries and putting hard working families out of work.
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Old 02-12-2011, 09:15 AM   #3
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Re: Gandy Girl, Help

WOW Ray!! Actual research!! What a concept!!!
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Old 02-12-2011, 09:16 AM   #4
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Re: Gandy Girl, Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by makomaster View Post
But Mr. Odor that would show them what the DON"T WANT TO KNOW,if they keep using stonhenge data than Mr. Crabtree can keep his job shutting down fisheries and putting hard working families out of work.
Sad, but true. NMFS has shown little interest over the past 25 years in obtaining accurate data collection.........they say they don't have the funds. However, I would have to assume that if NMFS went back to congress and said " we refuse take action on any fish species until you appropriate adequate funds for a complete and proper study", things would get better for us. Congress mandates that NMFS take action to stop overfishing but refuses to provide funding? I find this perplexing.

This tells me that NMFS is perfectly happy with the currently "flawed" methods of data collection. Flawed data allows for greater flexibility if you have an "agenda" you are trying to push. I think it is abundantly clear that there is definitely an agenda getting pushed and it is getting pushed right up our *%#$@
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Old 02-12-2011, 06:25 PM   #5
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Re: Gandy Girl, Help

oh they have all the funding they want,it goes like this for the south atlantic,new research,1 million $,catch share promotion and implementation 36 million$.Hell if they spent the money trying to buy certain greedy ass charter and commercial captains off,on research there would be a substantial gain of information.But this is America,the most F^%^&d up government on the planet.
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:35 AM   #6
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Re: Gandy Girl, Help

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Originally Posted by Spear One View Post
Sad, but true. NMFS has shown little interest over the past 25 years in obtaining accurate data collection.........they say they don't have the funds. However, I would have to assume that if NMFS went back to congress and said " we refuse take action on any fish species until you appropriate adequate funds for a complete and proper study", things would get better for us. Congress mandates that NMFS take action to stop overfishing but refuses to provide funding? I find this perplexing.

This tells me that NMFS is perfectly happy with the currently to "flawed" methods of data collection. Flawed data allows for greater flexibility if you have an "agenda" you are trying to push. I think it is abundantly clear that there is definitely an agenda getting pushed and it is getting pushed right up our *%#$@
uh..oh... KB, you did it now...

I believe you may likely be the guy that could make the difference and help to carry this message to the top...

I honestly doubt there would be any panel that could argue your very believable experience and absolute knowledge on the said subjuct...

boy, you really done it now.... lol
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Old 02-13-2011, 09:00 PM   #7
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Re: Gandy Girl, Help

How about a statewide fish count research day where divers swim structure with video cameras?
A few dozen different 30 minute videos shot at different dive sites, shot on the same day, proving what is really there might support the view that grouper are not overfished, just unacounted for.
Maybe fishery managers should look at what's actually on the bottom.
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:05 PM   #8
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Re: Gandy Girl, Help

There are certain Gulf Council members heavily invested in catch shares. They have to ignore the obvious so their greedy asses can make a buck.
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:40 PM   #9
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Re: Gandy Girl, Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Odor View Post
Gandy Girl, Help

Thank you for the update on Spearboard.

Now, maybe, with your involvement with the dreaded commission, you may be able to lend a helping hand.
Since no one, including the commissioners, can believe the methods used to determine fish stock are valid, why not go high tech?
This past year we watched pictures, live, taken from 5 miles under the surface of the G.O.M.
Can you visualize a marine fisheries vessel equipped with an underwater camera that could be lowered over selected areas i.e. designated wrecks and high structures in the Gulf and Atlantic, on a timely basis, and recorded counts made during each month of the habitation.
You may be even able to actually see the mass'es of Giant Goliath devour Grouper, Snapper, Grunts, Lobster, Octopus and any number of desired sealife.
Just think, you would then be able to verify what we divers have been telling you all along, without even getting your feet wet.

Ray
Ray,
I think its an interesting idea, and after rolling it around in my head for a while I came up with this: The scientists collecting fisheries independent data already use cameras to check out whats happening below, and I believe there has been conversation about increasing the funding for more coverage. From my complete laymen's perspective I can see why that data can not be use exclusively for a couple of reasons (just playing devils advocate here):

1. Fish move around so the data collected using that method would not tell you how many fish are in the Gulf, only how many are on that structure at that time. Really long term analysis might show general trends of increasing or decreasing populations but won't show how many fish are in each stock total.
2.If the fish are not tagged or identified as individuals there is no way of knowing if the fish that are disappearing or appearing on each reef are being caught or moving to and from other sites.
3.Studing the structure where fish are know to be leaves out a huge portion on the Gulf where habitat may or may not exist. Much like one couldn't figure out how many people of legal drinking age live in Tampa simply by visiting the bars, one can not count fish by looking solely at known structure.

At the risk of getting on my high horse I will follow with my frustrations regarding the criticisms of the science. I know the term "fatally flawed data" is used a lot, and while the Council members and folks at NOAA do recognize that the data does not provide us with a perfect picture of the fishery, it is the best anyones got. The data is not "flawed" because the scientists are stupid or lazy. It think its more truthful to say that the science is lacking because its hard to study a subject that you do not have complete access to. Its hard to study a subject with so many variables (tides, pressure, temperature, salinity,pollution, structure, fishing pressure, and the list goes on). I'm sure you've heard that we know more about the surface of the moon than we do about the bottoms of our oceans... that situation is not a result of some conspiracy to end fishing, that situation exists because underwater science is difficult, expensive, and time consuming.

I know that the restrictions put upon our fishery are difficult to deal with and I encourage you to continue making suggestions about how the systems in place can be improved. I will forward your suggestion along to the members of the data collection advisory panel and see what those folks have to say about it. Hopefully a more official response will follow.

Your Chum,
Emily Muehlstein

Last edited by GandyGirl; 02-15-2011 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:05 PM   #10
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Re: Gandy Girl, Help

When best available science refuses to accept as valid the reality of real time observations, I can see why those of us that see 500 or more grouper every day we go diving, might think the science if fatally flawed.
Or the agenda is other than allowing a maximum sustainable harvest.
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Old 02-15-2011, 07:00 PM   #11
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Re: Gandy Girl, Help

Quote from my chum, Gandy Girl. "It think its more truthful to say that the science is lacking because its hard to study a subject that you do not have complete access to. Its hard to study a subject with so many variables (tides, pressure, temperature, salinity,pollution, structure, fishing pressure, and the list goes on). "
And yet, they choose on the side of conjecture instead of all the citizens who make their livelihood from the sea along with all the associated industries connected with it. Sorry you're such small fry, you won't get a bailout.
SUSPEND THE MAGNUSSON/STEVENS ACT!!! Put the commissioners back to work!
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:20 PM   #12
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Smile Re: Gandy Girl, Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by GandyGirl View Post
I will forward your suggestion along to the members of the data collection advisory panel and see what those folks have to say about it. Hopefully a more official response will follow.
Hi Emily,

All of us would love to hear what they say at that panel. Ray's and Gene's ideas of using more underwater video have been suggested in other regions like the East Coast. I remember a Spearboard member named Craig (Killer & Griller) doing something extensive with the Georgia (I think) Commission with video observation. I have called him and asked him to comment on this thread.

Tony
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:55 PM   #13
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Re: Gandy Girl, Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Gene View Post
How about a statewide fish count research day where divers swim structure with video cameras?
A few dozen different 30 minute videos shot at different dive sites, shot on the same day, proving what is really there might support the view that grouper are not overfished.
Nice idea but the results wouldn't even be reviewed since there is no base line or uniformed format that would be followed.

That and it would be open to interpretation and manipulation by the data source.
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Old 02-15-2011, 11:42 PM   #14
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Re: Gandy Girl, Help

I am replying to this thread because Tony called me tonight and said a bit of insight might help on data collection questions / concerns since I have done a rather extensive project using video on grouper along with doing a bio-diversity index for "reef" fish.

Let me start by saying that I am not attacking Emily or the council, just sharing a project that was completed for NC and address some of the issues that were raised here. If you would like to see a copy of the pilot stock assessment program I wrote, feel free to contact me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GandyGirl View Post
From my complete laymen's perspective I can see why that data can not be use exclusively for a couple of reasons
Totally agree, video should be a supplemental system in the beginning until improvement and refining to a point that the real time data and accuracy can be established with a proper baseline and formula.

That being said, the present data system is so flawed, it would be easier to start with a clean slate than keep trying to modify it. It took 27 years for the council to admit that Chevron traps didn't catch grouper yet they didn't throw out all of that irrelevant data and still use it in statistics today.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GandyGirl View Post
1. Fish move around so the data collected using that method would not tell you how many fish are in the Gulf, only how many are on that structure at that time. Really long term analysis might show general trends of increasing or decreasing populations but won't show how many fish are in each stock total.
Yes and no.

Not only would it give a more accurate depiction of the current stock assessment but in a relatively short period of time, say 2 yrs, a BASIC baseline could be established as to the temporal and behavioral patterns along with movement trends.

In extensive filming that I have been directly associated with for an FRG project, it was quite clear early on that weather, moon phase, turbidity, temperature, sea conditions, surface current, bottom current, wave height, wind speed, wind / current / structure/ wave directions along with other factors played a role in finding fish. I find it interesting that the PRESENT DATA WORKSHOPS .....NONE..... of this is factored into effect in any " variables" that they use to regulate our fisheries stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GandyGirl View Post
2.If the fish are not tagged or identified as individuals there is no way of knowing if the fish that are disappearing or appearing on each reef are being caught or moving to and from other sites.
We both know a redundancy factor is easy enough to calculate according to a specific video, or series of videos, to encompass both behavior, structure, etc with minimal effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GandyGirl View Post
3.Studying the structure where fish are know to be leaves out a huge portion on the Gulf where habitat may or may not exist. Much like one couldn't figure out how many people of legal drinking age live in Tampa simply by visiting the bars, one can not count fish by looking solely at known structure.
Really? So you are saying that you can't tell me how many legal drinking age in Tampa by visiting bars?

Funny, because ........ THAT SAME PRINCIPLE is being applied RIGHT NOW by IMGONNATAKEAGUESS-TA-MATION methods from our present fisheries management and classing it as acceptable data.

I get your point but if I want to know how many "legal" alch's there are in Tampa, I check with DMV and Census and 3/4 of all my work is done, right?

You would use the tools afforded to you so it would be as accurate an estimate as possible. Now comes a SUPPLEMENTAL process that could be instrumental and it keeps getting shot down as " not viable".

PLEASE don't tell me standing on a dock, sitting in a boat, reviewing old trip tickets or random phone calls are more accurate than real time data sampling.


I told the NC Wildlife Dept that with the present DMF assumption methods, the next time I am 50 miles offshore, I will give them a "buck / doe" ratio for the entire state of NC....... seriously. All I have to do is guess if I don't actually go out into the woods and sample anything, right? I got time to make a few random phone calls.....


Back to being serious. The fact that I don't have to remove or effectively disturb a grouper from his habitat give me vital data that isn't plagued by variables like:

Is the fish hungry

Did it see the hook

Did it feel the hook

Does he want the offered bait

Can he see the fishing line

Did it see another grouper erratically swimming while it was being pulled to the surface

Is he even there because the current on the bottom has all of he fish and bait on the other side of the ledge that you aren't anchored over.

ETC

I can hit a grouper with a laser and tell you within 1/2" what his size is up to 50' away with good video and water clarity.

I may not be able to sample every structure that should be conducive to promoting the biodiversity necessary to support grouper, however, I could create an effective baseline to extrapolate a much more accurate estimate by actually sticking my head underwater than standing on a dock or sitting in a boat. Would you agree with that?

I know that when I PERSONALLY plugged in the GPS coords that came DIRECTLY from MARMAP, the only present regular "INDEPENDENT" data used in the SA, as their sampling sites, I was extremely disappointed when I spent 4 hours looking in a 1 mile radius only to find the "reef" structure 1/4 to 1/2 mile away. The 6 " sample" sites" I filmed that MARMAP said they used had the structure of 3 basketballs. Yes, I wasted the tanks to film the coords I was given, just to make a point, we have beautiful sand 30 miles off of the NC coast that don't hold any grouper.........

I didn't want the data selection to be "bias" so I tried to incorporate sample sites from other data sets workshops...... not so good.

The NC state project shows, conservatively, grouper stocks are in excess of 10X greater than what is presently acknowledged, yet the SA won't let a PHD professor do a formal presentation to the council.

For that, I am disappointed that a streamlined PILOT supplemental data collection system can't even be presented due to the potential ramifications it could have by shedding light on the POSSIBILITY that our fishery stock isn't as dire as proclaimed.

The project I did isn't the "end all / be all" solution, however, it did provide an astronomical amount of data that can be reviewed and processed so quickly, it is just 1 of I'm sure, many data collection methods that could be incorporated with minimal effort and maximum benefit.

Feel free to contact me if you would like to discuss further or if I can be of any assistance or if you would like to see a copy of the pilot stock assessment program I wrote and conducted.

Thank you for keeping an open mind and taking the time to talk to a few spearos on here.

Craig Andrews
910-209-2920

BS/ MD/ DSS / MBBS
Fish Psychologist
MDCM / BMed / DO
OD / CT/ PT / PHD in blowing bubbles and watching extinct fish swim around me.....
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Old 02-15-2011, 11:53 PM   #15
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Smile Re: Gandy Girl, Help

Thanks Craig for sharing your insights. You make some great points. I would hope the Gulf Council's panel will respond.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer&Griller View Post
I am replying to this thread because Tony called me tonight and said a bit of insight might help on data collection questions / concerns since I have done a rather extensive project using video on grouper along with doing a bio-diversity index for "reef" fish.

Let me start by saying that I am not attacking Emily or the council, just sharing a project that was completed for NC and address some of the issues that were raised here. If you would like to see a copy of the pilot stock assessment program I wrote, feel free to contact me.



Totally agree, video should be a supplemental system in the beginning until improvement and refining to a point that the real time data and accuracy can be established with a proper baseline and formula.

That being said, the present data system is so flawed, it would be easier to start with a clean slate than keep trying to modify it. It took 27 years for the council to admit that Chevron traps didn't catch grouper yet they didn't throw out all of that irrelevant data and still use it in statistics today.




Yes and no.

Not only would it give a more accurate depiction of the current stock assessment but in a relatively short period of time, say 2 yrs, a BASIC baseline could be established as to the temporal and behavioral patterns along with movement trends.

In extensive filming that I have been directly associated with for an FRG project, it was quite clear early on that weather, moon phase, turbidity, temperature, sea conditions, surface current, bottom current, wave height, wind speed, wind / current / structure/ wave directions along with other factors played a role in finding fish. I find it interesting that the PRESENT DATA WORKSHOPS .....NONE..... of this is factored into effect in any " variables" that they use to regulate our fisheries stock.



We both know a redundancy factor is easy enough to calculate according to a specific video, or series of videos, to encompass both behavior, structure, etc with minimal effort.



Really? So you are saying that you can't tell me how many legal drinking age in Tampa by visiting bars?

Funny, because ........ THAT SAME PRINCIPLE is being applied RIGHT NOW by IMGONNATAKEAGUESS-TA-MATION methods from our present fisheries management and classing it as acceptable data.

I get your point but if I want to know how many "legal" alch's there are in Tampa, I check with DMV and Census and 3/4 of all my work is done, right?

You would use the tools afforded to you so it would be as accurate an estimate as possible. Now comes a SUPPLEMENTAL process that could be instrumental and it keeps getting shot down as " not viable".

PLEASE don't tell me standing on a dock, sitting in a boat, reviewing old trip tickets or random phone calls are more accurate than real time data sampling.


I told the NC Wildlife Dept that with the present DMF assumption methods, the next time I am 50 miles offshore, I will give them a "buck / doe" ratio for the entire state of NC....... seriously. All I have to do is guess if I don't actually go out into the woods and sample anything, right? I got time to make a few random phone calls.....


Back to being serious. The fact that I don't have to remove or effectively disturb a grouper from his habitat give me vital data that isn't plagued by variables like:

Is the fish hungry

Did it see the hook

Did it feel the hook

Does he want the offered bait

Can he see the fishing line

Did it see another grouper erratically swimming while it was being pulled to the surface

Is he even there because the current on the bottom has all of he fish and bait on the other side of the ledge that you aren't anchored over.

ETC

I can hit a grouper with a laser and tell you within 1/2" what his size is up to 50' away with good video and water clarity.

I may not be able to sample every structure that should be conducive to promoting the biodiversity necessary to support grouper, however, I could create an effective baseline to extrapolate a much more accurate estimate by actually sticking my head underwater than standing on a dock or sitting in a boat. Would you agree with that?

I know that when I PERSONALLY plugged in the GPS coords that came DIRECTLY from MARMAP, the only present regular "INDEPENDENT" data used in the SA, as their sampling sites, I was extremely disappointed when I spent 4 hours looking in a 1 mile radius only to find the "reef" structure 1/4 to 1/2 mile away. The 6 " sample" sites" I filmed that MARMAP said they used had the structure of 3 basketballs. Yes, I wasted the tanks to film the coords I was given, just to make a point, we have beautiful sand 30 miles off of the NC coast that don't hold any grouper.........

I didn't want the data selection to be "bias" so I tried to incorporate sample sites from other data sets workshops...... not so good.

The NC state project shows, conservatively, grouper stocks are in excess of 10X greater than what is presently acknowledged, yet the SA won't let a PHD professor do a formal presentation to the council.

For that, I am disappointed that a streamlined PILOT supplemental data collection system can't even be presented due to the potential ramifications it could have by shedding light on the POSSIBILITY that our fishery stock isn't as dire as proclaimed.

The project I did isn't the "end all / be all" solution, however, it did provide an astronomical amount of data that can be reviewed and processed so quickly, it is just 1 of I'm sure, many data collection methods that could be incorporated with minimal effort and maximum benefit.

Feel free to contact me if you would like to discuss further or if I can be of any assistance or if you would like to see a copy of the pilot stock assessment program I wrote and conducted.

Thank you for keeping an open mind and taking the time to talk to a few spearos on here.

Craig Andrews
910-209-2920

BS/ MD/ DSS / MBBS
Fish Psychologist
MDCM / BMed / DO
OD / CT/ PT / PHD in blowing bubbles and watching extinct fish swim around me.....
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