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Old 06-13-2017, 02:05 AM   #106
seal77
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Re: Alemanni Demultiplied Rollerguns

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Originally Posted by Grizzlestomp View Post
I'm only a part-time builder, and my knowledge is anecdotal or pulled from second-hand sources, but I think one of the BIGGEST advantages of rollers is the line of sight, whether or not the guns are more powerful, accurate, and/or having the same power as a longer less maneuverable traditional gun.

When you are diving with a big three, four, or even five band traditional gun, and you shoot at a moving target with less then perfect visibility, you pull the triggers, then a bunch of stuff happens, bands go flying into your field of view, and then you either hit the fish or you don't. Sometimes you see the shaft flying, sometimes you don't.

With a roller (my experience is with a double roller based on an Alemanni design with a very simple loading procedure), the recoil is so low, and there is no rubber in your field of vision, AND YOU CAN SEE WHERE YOU MISS.

Shooting in a pool is great and all, but taking a shot with one hand at an awkward angle at a fish wiggling off in a separate direction involves a ton of variables. Being able to learn from your mistakes, see every miss, and compensate for future shots has GREATLY increased my accuracy (above and beyond whether the roller itself is more accurate/powerful than my traditional gun).

Also, the one "improvement", for me at least, of my guns over other rollers is using small ID, 14.5 mm bands stretched at 350+ percent. The whole point of a roller is steady acceleration over the full length of the track (instead of rapid acceleration initially in a traditional gun). I'd much prefer using thinner bands at a higher stretch to get the most out of the roller design, even if I have to change the bands more often. I see no reason to use a 16mm or 18mm band at less stretch, except for preserving the lifespan of the bands. And if you're spending this much money and time to get things perfect, might as well spend the extra hour or two once or twice a year tying bands.

Also, regarding the shaft deflecting downwards, I took a file and a dremel and scraped away the sharkfins until they are nearly 90 degress. That way when the wishbones rise up on the muzzle risers, they don't pull the sharkfins up and deflect the shaft low. It was a little dodgy finding out how much I could get away with (at a perfect 90 degrees the wishbones will slip off the sharkfins), but I haven't noticed any downward deflection.
You are completely right,keep on the building enthusiasm!)))
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Old 06-13-2017, 06:03 AM   #107
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Re: Alemanni Demultiplied Rollerguns

OK ... let's make one thing clear ... I am 100% for trying and testing new ideas, including rollers. If I disagree with somethings it has more to do with how my results in testing are telling me rather than a personal disagreement ... so I hope the enthusiasm to try out different things continue and am sure in the end there will be a positive result. I just think that at there is too much crap going around with regards to rollers and that just is giving false information to someone who is new at this. It is important to show the weaknesses and strengths of a system in order to improve and I think way too many spearos have a totally wrong impression that slapping on rollers to your gun will give you a huge boost in performance. It is not that simple. That doesn't mean all roller development should stop and nobody should use them ... if you know the advantages and disadvantages then you can make your decision based on the type of hunting you do and what your needs are. I do think that invert roller development (I only see this type of roller as feasible) has room to improve and it is nowhere near its theoretical potential. With classic guns I think we are very close to the maximum possible potential. What we need to understand is that I am not comparing a normal classic gun ... say a Riffe standard gun with 3 x 14.5mm @ 380% ... I am using a classic gun that is using the latest improvements in classic speargun design ... with adjusted high handle and proper band to shaft tuning. If you would use a Riffe standard gun then of course the rollers will look great and easily have better performance.

As for line of sight ... I agree that the thing I really liked with the Seal roller was the incredibly clean line of sight which made good accuracy much easier. I immediately modified my classic setup to have a metal wishbone on the third band ... that gave me a totally clear line of sight and am sure helped my accuracy with that gun.

As for seeing where the shaft is going ... if you can see the shaft ... then your shaft is not going fast enough. There is no way in hell that you can see a shaft coming out of the 3 banded Albacore @380% ... absolutely zero chance ... the shaft is moving way too fast. Even when I am at the side of the shooter and under and looking at his muzzle and target ... I just can't see the shaft as it is moving way too fast. With two bands and with the rollers you can see the shaft and can tell how it is flying.
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Old 06-13-2017, 06:36 AM   #108
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Re: Alemanni Demultiplied Rollerguns

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If you have a roller gun that you have confidence with while hunting, then great I think you should stick with it. I recently had one of the most experienced spearos in the world spend 2 days with me in my home pool testing all sorts of guns and configurations. He brought in several guns and we compared guns and setups. He does a lot of spearfishing safaris all over the world and has one of the biggest online spearfishing shops in europe ... and on a spearfishing trip we had this big roller - classic discussion. He would always tell me that the big name rollers were in a class of their own in terms of power and performance, but he would not use them often because they took too long to load and on many of his trips they are in remote areas ... and if something went wrong you were out a gun. Your double roller gun was one of the guns tested and we had another big name roller gun as well. Let me tell you that he went back home with a completely different opinion to what he had before. The best word I can describe when he shot the guns side by side was shock and amazement. I have the video of this testing, but I need to find a way where I can make it more diplomatic to post the video as a lot that was said was very undiplomatic. He was still perplexed to how that kind of power was possible from a 3 banded classic gun, and he seemed to think that the small changes I made to my Albacore 130 had a dramatic effect on performance and that a factory model would not perform like that. Personally I think there is not much difference once you mod the handle. The only change I did on that gun to the one I tested in the Albacore 130 test I posted was that I cut the first 2 bands 2cm shorter because I figured they had stretched out (they were old and I had over 250 shots in them) ... so on those 2 bands the stretch would have been around 390% ... shit ... now I want to try 400% . I was quite surprised at how much of a difference that made as the gun had much more power than the one I tested @ 380%. The increase in power had zero effect on accuracy or controllability ... gun was shooting the same but with more penetration. After passing the 8 meter test and feeling the yank of the gun as the shaft ran out of line ... he tried an accuracy test and at 6 meters he was hitting within 2cm of the bullseye every shot exactly where he was aiming. This is what I mean !!! Power + Flat Shooting + Extremely accurate + Quick loading + Few moving parts ... his words not mine!
Question - and not being pedantic Majd, just that modding handle to absorb recoil has been very much an [unexpectedly] ongoing process for me - the guy shooting your Albacore in the pool with abovementioned results, was doing so with your own personal modded handle - not one fitted to his hand, is that correct?

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Old 06-13-2017, 10:46 AM   #109
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Re: Alemanni Demultiplied Rollerguns

Majd, I'm trying not to be a pest, but I was setting up a gun with or without a Reel and the example made me think about your Carbon Wrapped model. My big Reel with line weighs 640grams. However, to offset the buoyancy in the water without the reel I only add 65 grams. 10X difference. Composites such as CF and Epoxy or Glass Filled Nylon and Dyneema are not 1:1 with Lead.This is pertaining to my question regarding your Carbon Fiber covered and Handle modded gun. While a standard Albacore 130 weighs 7.7lbs according to the answers I received, does your modded gun weigh 10lbs?
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Old 06-13-2017, 12:04 PM   #110
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Re: Alemanni Demultiplied Rollerguns

Actually I just finished modding the trigger pocket again and added another layer of CF on the back end as I had to cut an extra 1cm from the back of the trigger pocket for the latest version of the double roller trigger ... so an extra layer of CF can only make it stronger especially since this time I widened the trigger pocket and lined that with CF too. The exact weight with my handle mod with CF wrap and friction layer and the new slightly heavier trigger and 3 brand new 14.7mm @ 380% Primeline bands with the full CF wrap is 3482 grams (7.67 lbs). At the moment the gun is setup for an 8.5mm shaft so I don't have any lead pellets in any of the ballast pockets. Of course there is a chunk of lead that is inaccessible and am not sure how much that weights. I am not sure what an 8.5mm @ 170cm shaft is so you would have to add that too to get exact weight with shaft.
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Old 06-13-2017, 12:22 PM   #111
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Re: Alemanni Demultiplied Rollerguns

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Question - and not being pedantic Majd, just that modding handle to absorb recoil has been very much an [unexpectedly] ongoing process for me - the guy shooting your Albacore in the pool with abovementioned results, was doing so with your own personal modded handle - not one fitted to his hand, is that correct?
Yes that was with my handle mod ... and initially he did not like the size of my handle and thought it was too big. After a while he got used to it and started really nailing everything. I think if you go back to the 3 part video I put on youtube and try and understand the theory, you will have a better idea of what you need to do. basically you want to rotate your handle where your index finger can still reach the trigger, but by rotating your handle you are allowing recoil to go to your palm rather than your thumb (which is very weak). This prevents left shift and gives the shaft a much higher velocity. Think of a sprinter as he is on the starting block ... if he had no starting block a lot of his initial investment in energy would be lost as there is no good body to push out from. The same with a speargun ... when you give the shaft a solid backing the shaft will accelerate much faster and will translate the band power energy much more efficiently. This also happens to allow the shaft to go out much smoother with no deviation and very high stability ... that also keeps the shaft from dissipating velocity and keeps accuracy very high. At least that is my theory to why a proper handle mod is important. There really is a lot of information in those 3 videos to how to maximize performance out of your speargun, and there was a lot of testing and a lot of trial and error to reach those conclusions.
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Old 06-13-2017, 01:37 PM   #112
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Re: Alemanni Demultiplied Rollerguns

Thanks Majd, that gives us a good measure.
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Old 06-13-2017, 02:00 PM   #113
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Re: Alemanni Demultiplied Rollerguns

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As for seeing where the shaft is going ... if you can see the shaft ... then your shaft is not going fast enough. There is no way in hell that you can see a shaft coming out of the 3 banded Albacore @380% ... absolutely zero chance ... the shaft is moving way too fast. Even when I am at the side of the shooter and under and looking at his muzzle and target ... I just can't see the shaft as it is moving way too fast. With two bands and with the rollers you can see the shaft and can tell how it is flying.
I agree that it is impossible to see the shaft coming out of my double roller or my five band 72" tuna gun. But, if I'm taking a shot at a fish over 20 feet away, I can usually pick up the shaft's trajectory at that distance or at least get some information about where I missed based on the fish's reaction to the shot and the shooting line trailing behind the shaft. Whether or not I see the shaft in flight is besides the point as, somehow, I am usually able to figure out where I missed. When there is a bunch of rubber in your line of sight, you just don't get any of this information, or at least not as well and not as consistently.
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Old 06-13-2017, 03:44 PM   #114
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Re: Alemanni Demultiplied Rollerguns

You could paint the back of the shaft with some kind of glow? It's hard to see a fast moving object going across your field of view but in this case you could probably draw a bead on that glowing dot.
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Old 06-13-2017, 04:32 PM   #115
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Re: Alemanni Demultiplied Rollerguns

That's a great idea. Just a dot of yellow or white fluorescent paint would probably make a big difference.
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Old 06-14-2017, 05:27 PM   #116
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Re: Alemanni Demultiplied Rollerguns

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OK ... let's make one thing clear ... I am 100% for trying and testing new ideas, including rollers. If I disagree with somethings it has more to do with how my results in testing are telling me rather than a personal disagreement ... so I hope the enthusiasm to try out different things continue and am sure in the end there will be a positive result. I just think that at there is too much crap going around with regards to rollers and that just is giving false information to someone who is new at this. It is important to show the weaknesses and strengths of a system in order to improve and I think way too many spearos have a totally wrong impression that slapping on rollers to your gun will give you a huge boost in performance. It is not that simple. That doesn't mean all roller development should stop and nobody should use them ... if you know the advantages and disadvantages then you can make your decision based on the type of hunting you do and what your needs are. I do think that invert roller development (I only see this type of roller as feasible) has room to improve and it is nowhere near its theoretical potential. With classic guns I think we are very close to the maximum possible potential. What we need to understand is that I am not comparing a normal classic gun ... say a Riffe standard gun with 3 x 14.5mm @ 380% ... I am using a classic gun that is using the latest improvements in classic speargun design ... with adjusted high handle and proper band to shaft tuning. If you would use a Riffe standard gun then of course the rollers will look great and easily have better performance.

As for line of sight ... I agree that the thing I really liked with the Seal roller was the incredibly clean line of sight which made good accuracy much easier. I immediately modified my classic setup to have a metal wishbone on the third band ... that gave me a totally clear line of sight and am sure helped my accuracy with that gun.

As for seeing where the shaft is going ... if you can see the shaft ... then your shaft is not going fast enough. There is no way in hell that you can see a shaft coming out of the 3 banded Albacore @380% ... absolutely zero chance ... the shaft is moving way too fast. Even when I am at the side of the shooter and under and looking at his muzzle and target ... I just can't see the shaft as it is moving way too fast. With two bands and with the rollers you can see the shaft and can tell how it is flying.
Majd,we are not talking about seeing the shaft,but seeing WHERE the shaft goes,I mean the trace of the mono going after the shaft.Thats visible with the rollers even with the fastest shafts,but imposible even with the weakest classic guns.This is becouse of the cavitation of the flying bands and partial muzzle kick(more or less) of the normal guns. With your experience you should understand perfectly what I mean.
You are talking about FALSE information to people who are new in the sport...I suppose you mean sperafishing,not shooting targets.
My personal opinion is that shooting with spearguns is much or less instinctive-spearguns are not rifles and do not have aiming sights.There is more habitude and personel style.Regarding this, true conclusions of somebody,made in static enviroment may be NOT so true for somebody else in spearfishing conditions.
Last weekend I had a verry pleasant and relaxing spearfishing trip in Greece.I was taking incredible shots at small and bigger fast fishes from 5 meters with just 85 sm single banded polispast.Something that I couldnt do with any other gun this size.I was shooting and thinking how easy it is and how many fishes and beautifull situations I wouldnt miss if I had this gun as a beginer.For me this is improovment and a TRUE situation.And I have a bunch of friends who think the same.
Does it means that Majd's advises are FALSE?Of cource not,but he is too marginal and this could be misleading in some points.
I believe that people should try everything in this life and find their own true.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:14 PM   #117
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Re: Alemanni Demultiplied Rollerguns

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OK ... let's make one thing clear ... I am 100% for trying and testing new ideas, including rollers. If I disagree with somethings it has more to do with how my results in testing are telling me rather than a personal disagreement ... so I hope the enthusiasm to try out different things continue and am sure in the end there will be a positive result. I just think that at there is too much crap going around with regards to rollers and that just is giving false information to someone who is new at this. It is important to show the weaknesses and strengths of a system in order to improve and I think way too many spearos have a totally wrong impression that slapping on rollers to your gun will give you a huge boost in performance. It is not that simple. That doesn't mean all roller development should stop and nobody should use them ... if you know the advantages and disadvantages then you can make your decision based on the type of hunting you do and what your needs are. I do think that invert roller development (I only see this type of roller as feasible) has room to improve and it is nowhere near its theoretical potential. With classic guns I think we are very close to the maximum possible potential. What we need to understand is that I am not comparing a normal classic gun ... say a Riffe standard gun with 3 x 14.5mm @ 380% ... I am using a classic gun that is using the latest improvements in classic speargun design ... with adjusted high handle and proper band to shaft tuning. If you would use a Riffe standard gun then of course the rollers will look great and easily have better performance.

As for line of sight ... I agree that the thing I really liked with the Seal roller was the incredibly clean line of sight which made good accuracy much easier. I immediately modified my classic setup to have a metal wishbone on the third band ... that gave me a totally clear line of sight and am sure helped my accuracy with that gun.

As for seeing where the shaft is going ... if you can see the shaft ... then your shaft is not going fast enough. There is no way in hell that you can see a shaft coming out of the 3 banded Albacore @380% ... absolutely zero chance ... the shaft is moving way too fast. Even when I am at the side of the shooter and under and looking at his muzzle and target ... I just can't see the shaft as it is moving way too fast. With two bands and with the rollers you can see the shaft and can tell how it is flying.
I am just watching these thread from the begining and decide not to get in discusion, but few sentences from this post make me to do that.
You mentioned false informations gived to people. What false informations you had on your mind? Through many of your posts about rollers is written about low shooting, and that becomes one of your main arguments against rollers. Personally I did almost three digit number of rollerguns and nobody of spearos who are ussing my rollers did not complain on that. Not a single one.
Now 9 of 10 orders I take are rollers, maybe even higher percentage. If rollerguns are not so good how we, (not just me) who are making spearguns all over the world suceed all these years to make false impresions on speardiving population?
My First thread on this forum with roller presentation was in 2013. http://spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=166631 when some of peoples are confused how that is working. That was not my First roller, First one was made a year earlier. That type od rollerguns exist years earlier.
Take a look on handle, there is no need for modificatios.
And what make me laugh is your last sentence about roller shaft speed. Just have no comments on that.
I really admire your enthusiasm on testing but I just wonder did you ever try to analyze sound from test videos and try to calculate average shaft speed?
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Old 06-14-2017, 11:22 PM   #118
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Re: Alemanni Demultiplied Rollerguns

Quality fit for purpose is going to dictate what choices are made between spearguns, as well as how much someone wants to pay, so I suspect that the classic band gun has maintained its position in the market because it is a very simple device which needs little maintenance and is easy to load and is inexpensive due to not many parts being required. Low jerk, one handed shooting rollerguns like the Alemanni Demultiplied Rollerguns are probably easier to tune for different shaft sizes as power increments are applied in smaller steps (the demultiplication halves them) compared with a classic gun and avoid the strong impulse when say four bands apply all their maximum force level to the same shaft in an equivalent length classic gun. A long steady push is easier for the shooter to control than a sudden jerk, particularly if the gun body is relatively light for the band load being used and throwing some energy away is worth the gain in effectiveness.

It will be interesting to see if changing the force application profile even further with the CVT system used in the "Dreamair" makes for an even more improved shooting platform as while rollerguns stretch out and gradually taper the band force profile the CVT system can even it up even more, or maybe reverse it.

Last edited by popgun pete; 06-14-2017 at 11:27 PM. Reason: even up rather than even out
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:27 AM   #119
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Re: Alemanni Demultiplied Rollerguns

There is a lot of bullshit on the net about rollerguns. You can deny it all you want, but that is the truth. So many people buy them and then sell them.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:48 AM   #120
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Re: Alemanni Demultiplied Rollerguns

The shaft speed comment was based on some testing I did with a friend of mine who brought in several guns to test. I was watching from under and behind the muzzle looking at the target. I was not the shooter, so I had a very clean view of both the muzzle and trajectory of shaft. With the 3 banded Albacore it is just impossible to see the shaft all the way to 8 meter target. With the other guns you can make out the shaft at the end of its flight. This is not very scientific measure by any means, but don't forget that we also were testing penetration testing ... now that is pretty scientific and the difference in penetration was beyond dramatic.

@ Seal As for FALSE information ... I really am not selling anything and I really don't give a crap which gun people buy. Remember I forked out a lot of money and went out of my way to buy one of your guns and haul it back as excess baggage from London with me. I think I was the one that was given FALSE information about the gun ... if I remember correctly you had it shooting a target at 9 meters dead center ... and of course that big tuna video and a couple of comments like "it was taking chunks out of the pool" got me hyped and fooled into thinking that this would be a dramatic improvement in performance and you were so confident with that, that you agreed to have me post any results online. I had expected that the gun would absolutely blow away any classic gun on earth ... that of course did not happen ... even a properly configured 2 banded Pathos 130 using the same shaft and line had better performance. Don't get me started on the difference between that gun and a properly configured 3 banded blue water classic gun ... it is such a huge gap that I will not even get into it.

I know that if you like rollers you get upset at all this talk, but in the end you shoot the gun that works best for you. For some people they don't need long range power and long range accuracy ... maybe the visibility is bad and they can get close to fish. Hell I have a bunch of rollers at home ... and must have roller and invert roller parts for at least 10 guns. What I don't like is FALSE BS that comes with the "roller" configuration that claims to outperform classic guns ... that is just not true. If you look at the latest configurations of rollers, they all are adding "booster" bands. Well guess what ... a booster band is a classic band and if you want to look at it another way, maybe a classic 3 banded gun is just a roller gun with 3 booster bands Maybe I can add a small roller band on a well configured classic 3 banded gun and claim it is the most powerful roller gun on earth.

The science is on the side of roller systems ... specifically invert rollers. Physics says that there are several reasons why invert rollers should shoot with more power. But so far I have not seen that and the main reason is that once you power up the gun ... the shaft starts to dive. Alemmani has done several tricks on his gun to keep the shaft from diving ... but one of those tricks is to under power the gun ... so that keeps the theoretically power advantage at bay. The other tricks he uses are at the expense of efficiency ... which also drops the performance. One day someone will figure it all out and come out with a roller system that gets the shaft out stable and flat no matter what power you put in there ... until then I will be on the other side.
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