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Technical Spearfishing Technical Scuba diving is generally defined as going deeper than 130 feet. You must have the proper training for this extreme aspect of spearfishing.

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Old 10-12-2008, 01:24 PM   #16
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Re: nitrox help

No Misses,anyone that stupid shouldn't be diving anyway.The 6 Ps were taught to me as a kid and reiterated in every class I've taken.
ie:Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

It is common for actual nitrox divers to be capable enough to know their MOD and not exceed it.

I dive nitrox on an old air computer because modern computers are designed by chicken little and his staff of fellow hand wringers.
They are far to conservative on repetitive diving after giving you tons of extra time on the first dive.I can recall dives in 140' where VPM and my air computer cleared and my supposedly "liberal"Oceanic or Aeris nitrox computers had me hanging for almost a half hour more when dove side by side 3-5 dives in one day.
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Old 10-12-2008, 04:56 PM   #17
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Re: nitrox help

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Originally Posted by No Misses View Post
I do not want to be a troll.

What you suggest is very dangerous. Here is one example. You are diving EAN 36 - you leave your computer set for air - You drop in on a gradual ledge and start following a fish that is going deeper. Your dive computer will be happy with you until you max your nitrogen or decend past it's "max depth" setting (depends on programming and on computer. we will say it is 130 fsw in this example) - once you get to 114 fsw you have reached the MOD of EAN 36. If you follow that fish down any further you are at risk of taking an O2 hit (Oxygen Toxicity). The moral of the story is DO NOT LIE TO YOUR DC. If you want to dive conservative use your brain or buy a DC that has programmable consevatism settings.

End of rant :-)

P.S. I dive EANx on almost every dive.
Your post is not a Troll post. You make a great point that cannot be said enough. If you are going to use Nitrox, learn how to use it, keep that info fresh in your mind, DIVE OFTEN. It does you no good to dive once or twice a year.
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Old 10-12-2008, 04:59 PM   #18
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Re: nitrox help

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Originally Posted by 100days-a-year View Post
No Misses,anyone that stupid shouldn't be diving anyway.The 6 Ps were taught to me as a kid and reiterated in every class I've taken.
ie:Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

It is common for actual nitrox divers to be capable enough to know their MOD and not exceed it.

I dive nitrox on an old air computer because modern computers are designed by chicken little and his staff of fellow hand wringers.
They are far to conservative on repetitive diving after giving you tons of extra time on the first dive.I can recall dives in 140' where VPM and my air computer cleared and my supposedly "liberal"Oceanic or Aeris nitrox computers had me hanging for almost a half hour more when dove side by side 3-5 dives in one day.
With all due respect, if you're going to dive using your dive computer, listen to it. If you're going to dive by screwing around and lying to it, what the hell are you doing using that dive computer ? If you want more liberal time, change your computer or dive tables. If you want to dive NITROX and pretend you're diving air, use a table. It is a poor idea to tell others here that they should start "cheating" on computers. Many don't understand the issues, and you are simply going to get someone bent or hurt. It's been a tough enough year.
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Old 10-12-2008, 05:02 PM   #19
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Re: nitrox help

take the class and remeber what you have are told this is the way of the sea.
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Old 10-12-2008, 11:22 PM   #20
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Re: nitrox help

I dunno if anyone else feels the way I do, But after a day of diving on Nitrox I feel WAY better than a day of diving on air. Now when I dive I dive nothing but nitrox, weather it be in 25fsw at my favorite snapper hole near the skyway bridge, or diving to 130fsw at the Middle Grounds 100 miles off shore.
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Old 10-13-2008, 09:00 AM   #21
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Re: nitrox help

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Originally Posted by BobK View Post
With all due respect, if you're going to dive using your dive computer, listen to it. If you're going to dive by screwing around and lying to it, what the hell are you doing using that dive computer ? If you want more liberal time, change your computer or dive tables. If you want to dive NITROX and pretend you're diving air, use a table. It is a poor idea to tell others here that they should start "cheating" on computers. Many don't understand the issues, and you are simply going to get someone bent or hurt. It's been a tough enough year.
Diving Nitrox with an air computer is perfectly fine and even recomended. What is wrong with that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lgsliptip View Post
take the class and remeber what you have are told this is the way of the sea.
LOL! WTF! That last shot of Jack should have never left the bottle!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teh Wicked View Post
I dunno if anyone else feels the way I do, But after a day of diving on Nitrox I feel WAY better than a day of diving on air. Now when I dive I dive nothing but nitrox, weather it be in 25fsw at my favorite snapper hole near the skyway bridge, or diving to 130fsw at the Middle Grounds 100 miles off shore.

It is interesting that you mention this. I have had the same experience.
Oxigen is a healing gas. It is great for your cells and brain if used correctly.

I have asthma(mild) or RAD(Reactive Airway Disease) from all the chemicals and paint inhaled over the years. I used to have to use Albutherol almost daily and spent a week in the hospital due to a shortness of breath. Then I started diving NITROX a lot, almost twice a week and it cured me. I rarely get short of breath anymore. When I dive NITROX I also feel really well. That is some amazing shit.
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Old 10-13-2008, 11:27 AM   #22
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Re: nitrox help

Facts:

1. Nitrox allows you to dive longer than air.
2. Nitrox can shorten your surface interval between dives.
3. Nitrox diving is DEPTH LIMITED due to Oxygen Partial pressures.
4. Since some Nitrogen is being removed from the final mix, there is less ongassing, therefore you reduce (not eliminate) your chance of a DCS hit.
5. Diving Nitrox using AIR TABLES, will again reduce your chance of a DCS hit, as you are adding extra conservatism. This DOES NOT APPLY to dive computers! Alot of divers don't have the forethought to monitor their SPG, let alone their Po2 and MOD while they are stepping on a reef, or noodeling for moray eels! read: BAD IDEA!!!
6. In some pople, diving Nitrox will make you feel better and less tired after a dive. I personally feel this way, other divers may not.
7. Oxygen is treated with the same narcotic potential as Nitrogen, therefore Narcosis effects are not reduced. (This is the agency position on this, I have my own position in regards to O2 and Narcosis, but that is for another time)

So that's it in a nutshell. Take a class, learn to analyze your mix, and get familiar with figuring out your best mix for depth, and not exceeding your MOD.

After all, it's the Devil's gas!!!!

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Old 10-13-2008, 01:49 PM   #23
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Re: nitrox help

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston View Post
Facts:
5. Diving Nitrox using AIR TABLES, will again reduce your chance of a DCS hit, as you are adding extra conservatism. This DOES NOT APPLY to dive computers!
I disagree with this statement, so I assume that I misunderstand your comments. It seems that using an air computer and diving nitrox should be analogous to using an air table and diving nitrox; at least with respect to DCS?
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Old 10-13-2008, 01:52 PM   #24
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Re: nitrox help

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I disagree with this statement, so I assume that I misunderstand your comments. It seems that using an air computer and diving nitrox should be analogous to using an air table and diving nitrox; at least with respect to DCS?
Calculations are the same. Situational awareness of the diver in respect to not exceeding MOD is not.

Air computers will not tell you when your Po2 is above setpoint (1.6 for OC divers)

You tox = You drown.

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Old 10-13-2008, 03:14 PM   #25
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Re: nitrox help

MikeE,you mentioned that divers situational awareness not being sufficient to monitor guages while diving.That also applies to computers.Telling it you are on nitrox and not looking at it is the same as lieing to it.Once again I reiterate that clowns who are unaware of the dangers and unable to do the math themselves are still clueless with a computer.And shouldn't be underwater spearfishing anyway.

I started diving nitrox before there was a class,computer or retail source for it by reading the available literature and listening to guys doing it.I only took the class a maybe 15 years ago as it was going to be required as a pre-req for my trimix class.
I use the configuration I do because it works and gets me out of the water unbent in thousands of dives and quicker than a nitrox computer at any depth over 120' In fact the only nitrox computer that is similar in times are the Cochrans and too many friends have had them sh&t out on the boat.
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Old 10-13-2008, 07:17 PM   #26
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Re: nitrox help

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Originally Posted by 100days-a-year View Post
MikeE,you mentioned that divers situational awareness not being sufficient to monitor guages while diving.That also applies to computers.Telling it you are on nitrox and not looking at it is the same as lieing to it.
That's simplistic and not the issue. What is really going to happen is that people are going to think it's great to dive a NITROX mix and use an air computer to do it. Isn't this what you do ? And then what happens is, near the end of the dive, they'll see the fish of a lifetime. Their brain says, "Hey, I'm really diving NITROX, I have extra time !". They go get the fish. I don't know you but I would bet good money you've done this. So, after a few times of doing this, perhaps even over a period of years, it becomes a habit. But the diver no longer has a good handle on where they are in relation to their NDL limits, and the potential to get bent goes up.

I believe this because something similar is already happening with pony tanks. Pony tanks were designed to be an EMERGENCY backup to backgas because the diver was solo diving (Disclaimer: I solo all the time, like most of you). But with certain divers, the pony tank has become a gas extender. I have picked up divers having an in water emergency because they exhausted their back gas and then their pony because they were chasing a nice fish. They had totally lost the concept of what that pony gas was for. Same thing diving NITROX but using an air computer. Eventually people are going to (And I'm sure currently do) forget the original reason and start extending their BT time arbitrarily. And then the trouble will begin.

If you want the extra time from a NITROX mix, dive with a NITROX table or computer. At the end of your BT, you'll know you're at the end, or you need to do deco. Otherwise you're just guessing. Guessing in diving gets people in trouble.
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Old 10-13-2008, 07:58 PM   #27
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Re: nitrox help

And exactly what will keep the same clowns from exceeding the MOD of their mix just because they have computer on?A flashing icon they are not looking at?An inaudible beep that can only be heard in the diveshop?

Explain very simply what mechanism in a computer keeps the same guy who would chase past his MOD after a fish with an air computer will be prevented from doing so by this nitrox computer.

Not trying be a jerk,I know you guys mean well but I dive a lot with a lot of different people and I prefer those who know exactly what their capabilities are in any given situation to those who are only safe within a narrow window of Utopian scenarios.
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Old 10-13-2008, 08:01 PM   #28
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Re: nitrox help

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That's simplistic and not the issue. What is really going to happen is that people are going to think it's great to dive a NITROX mix and use an air computer to do it. Isn't this what you do ? And then what happens is, near the end of the dive, they'll see the fish of a lifetime. Their brain says, "Hey, I'm really diving NITROX, I have extra time !". They go get the fish. I don't know you but I would bet good money you've done this. So, after a few times of doing this, perhaps even over a period of years, it becomes a habit. But the diver no longer has a good handle on where they are in relation to their NDL limits, and the potential to get bent goes up.

I believe this because something similar is already happening with pony tanks. Pony tanks were designed to be an EMERGENCY backup to backgas because the diver was solo diving (Disclaimer: I solo all the time, like most of you). But with certain divers, the pony tank has become a gas extender. I have picked up divers having an in water emergency because they exhausted their back gas and then their pony because they were chasing a nice fish. They had totally lost the concept of what that pony gas was for. Same thing diving NITROX but using an air computer. Eventually people are going to (And I'm sure currently do) forget the original reason and start extending their BT time arbitrarily. And then the trouble will begin.

If you want the extra time from a NITROX mix, dive with a NITROX table or computer. At the end of your BT, you'll know you're at the end, or you need to do deco. Otherwise you're just guessing. Guessing in diving gets people in trouble.
I think that is a generalization and does not apply to all scenarios and divers.

Some people will push the limits and incorporate unsafe practices into their profiles. I have seen it done. Others will be conservative and cautious. Yet others will find a middle line between safety and all out madness. In the end I think that the danger is not in the fact that a diver uses an air computer to dive Nitrox but how safe and knowledgable the diver is with regards to his equipment, technique and knowledge of his own limitations. All things being equal, a guy that dives conservatively and uses an air computer with Nitrox is less likely to get an undeserved hit. From my point of view this is a no brainer.

Now take a diver that pushes the limits and that is a diver that will do so regardless of what equipment he is using. Same goes for someone that does not have a solid understanding of Nitrox use and limitations or someone that dives once a year and is not fluent due to lack of practice. I am pretty sure that is one analizes fatalities, those two factors will be the predominant determinators of diver fatality.

I for one dove a Nitrox computer for a while that a friend let me borrow. When I returned it to him I was without one for a while and dove my air console. Never did I exceed my computer or blow off deco. I did short decos a few times with it knowing perfectly well that I did not need to because it was a profile that I had done hundreds of times. Then again, never did I use my pony, never did I use my pony to continue diving and never did I surface from 80 feet plus with less than 300-700psi in my tank. That is just me.
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Old 10-13-2008, 08:10 PM   #29
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Re: nitrox help

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston View Post
Calculations are the same. Situational awareness of the diver in respect to not exceeding MOD is not.

Air computers will not tell you when your Po2 is above setpoint (1.6 for OC divers)

You tox = You drown.

Safe Diving
Well I tried.... You tell us that using air tables with nitrox is OK, but a computer who thinks your are breathing air is going to facilitate an exceedance of the MOD for nitrox. Exactly how do the air tables prevent this?
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Old 10-13-2008, 09:35 PM   #30
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Re: nitrox help

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Well I tried.... You tell us that using air tables with nitrox is OK, but a computer who thinks your are breathing air is going to facilitate an exceedance of the MOD for nitrox. Exactly how do the air tables prevent this?
I think that because when you plan your dive using a table, you specificly plan your max depth and adhere to it. When diving a computer, it does all your depth/saturation calculations automaticly and you may forget the gases MOD due to this fact.

I don't know about you guys but I love these tech threads cause even though I havent been diving in over a month, they keep my brain fresh on the principles and you allways learn something new.
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