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Old 12-24-2011, 03:20 AM   #31
SpearMax
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Arrow Re: Found. Avenger Aircraft. Flight 19?

I have not been diving in over 3 months due mainly to bad weekend sea conditions. We had a nice weather break on Friday JfJf and I decided to pay a visit to the Randy Jordan and team airplane discovery in 185 feet of water Friday afternoon.

The conditions were wonderful with calm seas, good visibility and low current. In an effort to help Randy determine the identity of this mystery plane, we brought along a fiberglass tape measure. Total dive time was about one hour with deco.

The engine and propeller are separated from the main fuselage by a good distance. Here are the dimensions we measured.

Tail width was 19 feet which is close to the Avenger specification below in the drawing of 20 feet. The tail shape does not appear to be that of an Avenger. But, I do think the overall plane looks like a military aircraft of some sort. Or maybe it is a modified Avenger as mentioned in the prop discussion below.

The wing span of the mystery plane appears to be over 50 feet which is close to the Avenger number of 54 feet.

The overall length measurement is tricky because the plane is broken in two parts. The distance from the fuselage front end shown in the below video frame to the tail is 30 feet. We will have to go back and measure the distance from the propeller cone to the back of the engine. The Avenger specification below says 40 feet of total length.

The propeller is problematic. Most Avenger photos I found showed three blades and it appears this plane has four blades. However, I was able to find reference to modifications done on the many thousands of Avengers that were produced.Wwe measured one blade at 6 feet 2 inches from the tip of the cone to the end of the blade. i do not have an Avenger prop spec to compare this measurement to.

Here are the Avenger specifications from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_TBF_Avenger

General characteristics
Crew: 3
Length: 40 ft 11.5 in (12.48 m)
Wingspan: 54 ft 2 in [19] (16.51 m)
Height: 15 ft 5 in (4.70 m)
Wing area: 490.02 ft² (45.52 m²)
Empty weight: 10,545 lb (4,783 kg)
Loaded weight: 17,893 lb (8,115 kg)
Powerplant: 1 × Wright R-2600-20 radial engine, 1,900 hp (1,420 kW)

Performance
Maximum speed: 275 mph [20] (442 km/h)
Range: 1,000 mi (1,610 km)
Service ceiling: 30,100 ft (9,170 m)
Rate of climb: 2,060 ft/min (10.5 m/s)
Wing loading: 36.5 ft·lbf² (178 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.11 hp/lb (0.17 kW/kg)

Armament

Guns:
1 × 0.30 in (7.62 mm) nose-mounted M1919 Browning machine gun(on early models)
2 × 0.50 in (12.7 mm) wing-mounted M2 Browning machine guns
1 × 0.50 in (12.7 mm) dorsal-mounted M2 Browning machine gun
1 × 0.30 in (7.62 mm) ventral-mounted M1919 Browning machine gun

Rockets:
up to eight 3.5-Inch Forward Firing Aircraft Rockets, 5-Inch Forward Firing Aircraft Rockets or High Velocity Aerial Rockets

Bombs:
Up to 2,000 lb (907 kg) of bombs or
1 × 2,000 lb (907 kg) Mark 13 torpedo

Here is some video of our dive:



Plane Wreck 2nd Try - YouTube.









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Last edited by SpearMax; 12-24-2011 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:48 AM   #32
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Re: Found. Avenger Aircraft. Flight 19?

saw it on the news too, great find!
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:12 AM   #33
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Re: Found. Avenger Aircraft. Flight 19?

That is just too cool!!
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Old 12-24-2011, 11:11 AM   #34
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Re: Found. Avenger Aircraft. Flight 19?

http://warbirdinformationexchange.or...iewtopic.php?f
=3&t=43783
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Old 12-24-2011, 11:11 AM   #35
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Re: Found. Avenger Aircraft. Flight 19?

Yea I was gonna say it didn't have the wing sig. of an avenger but one hell of a find none the less. I hope yall can dig up some more info on it. Congrats gents, how exciting!!!!!!!
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Old 12-24-2011, 11:14 AM   #36
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Re: Found. Avenger Aircraft. Flight 19?

Very cool Randy, this beats any light, tickle stick or gun you've found by a long shot.

Congrats no matter what the outcome!
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Old 12-24-2011, 12:49 PM   #37
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Talking Re: Found. Avenger Aircraft. Flight 19?

Oh boy, this is so exciting can't wait to see it. yes leave it to Randy, he will find just about anything under the water. great find..... hey Tony, is that grouper standing on its head in your video? or is that just my warped mind..........
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Old 12-24-2011, 03:51 PM   #38
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Talking Re: Found. Avenger Aircraft. Flight 19?

Quote:
Originally Posted by reef roamer View Post
Oh boy, this is so exciting can't wait to see it. yes leave it to Randy, he will find just about anything under the water. great find..... hey Tony, is that grouper standing on its head in your video? or is that just my warped mind..........
Yes! That gag was a break dancer spinning on his head in Jim's video footage

Here is Randy on local television.

http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/region_...#ixzz1hUHdOPu3

Quote:
Jordan sent his images to the Warbird Information Exchange , an online source for historical aviation information. Experts there told Jordan that the submerged aircraft could be a Curtiss Helldiver SBC2. Some of those airplanes flew in the early 1940s during World War II.

Yeah Randy, the tape measurements make much more sense with the Helldiver specs here and, of course, the four blade propeller. Great find and excellent x-mas present! Now, the story behind it needs to emerge. Those Spearboard Helldivers (from Louisiana) sure do get around

Specifications (SB2C-4 Helldiver) Data from United States Navy Aircraft since 1911

General characteristics
Crew: Two, pilot and radio operator/gunner
Length: 36 ft 8 in (11.18 m)
Wingspan: 49 ft 9 in (15.17 m)
Height: 13 ft 2 in (4.01 m)
Wing area: 422 ft² (39.2 m²)
Empty weight: 10,547 lb (4,794 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 16,616 lb (7,553 kg)
Powerplant: 1 × Wright R-2600-20 Twin Cyclone radial engine, 1,900 hp (1,417 kW)

Performance Maximum speed: 295 mph (257 knots, 475 km/h) at 16,700 ft (5,090 m)
Cruise speed: 158 mph (137 knots, 254 km/h)
Range: 1,165 mi (1,013 nmi, 1,876 km) with 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombload
Service ceiling: 29,100 ft (8,870 m)
Rate of climb: 1,800 ft/min (9.1 m/s)

Armament

Guns:
2 × 20 mm (.79 in) cannon in the wings
2 × 0.30 in (7.62 mm) M1919 Browning machine guns in the rear cockpit

Bombs: in internal bay: 2,000 lb (900 kg) of bombs or 1 × Mark 13-2 torpedo[46]
on underwing hardpoints: 500 lb (225 kg) of bombs each

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Last edited by SpearMax; 12-24-2011 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 12-24-2011, 04:31 PM   #39
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Re: Found. Avenger Aircraft. Flight 19?

Who was using a snorkel and single tank at 185'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_diver View Post
...What mixes were you guys diving at that depth and what was your bottom time?.
for the discovery dive, I had air with 32%and 80% for deco. our plan was 185 for 5 minutes and 165 for 25 so when we dropped on the plane our working time was short. Heres my plan for next time

185ft (3) Air 50ft/min descent.
Level 185ft 16:18 (20) Air 1.38 ppO2, 185ft ead
Asc to 120ft (22) Air -30ft/min ascent.
Asc to 100ft (22) Nitrox 32 -30ft/min ascent.
Stop at 100ft 0:10 (23) Nitrox 32 1.29 ppO2, 81ft ead
Stop at 90ft 1:00 (24) Nitrox 32 1.19 ppO2, 73ft ead
Stop at 80ft 1:00 (25) Nitrox 32 1.09 ppO2, 64ft ead
Stop at 70ft 2:00 (27) Nitrox 32 1.00 ppO2, 56ft ead
Stop at 60ft 2:00 (29) Nitrox 32 0.90 ppO2, 47ft ead
Stop at 50ft 4:00 (33) Nitrox 32 0.80 ppO2, 38ft ead
Stop at 40ft 4:00 (37) Nitrox 32 0.71 ppO2, 30ft ead
Stop at 30ft 4:00 (41) Nitrox 80 1.53 ppO2, 0ft ead
Stop at 20ft 3:00 (44) Nitrox 80 1.28 ppO2, 0ft ead
Stop at 15ft 12:00 (56) Nitrox 80 1.16 ppO2, 0ft ead
Surface (56) Nitrox 80 -30ft/min ascent
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Old 12-24-2011, 05:12 PM   #40
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Re: Found. Avenger Aircraft. Flight 19?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shcubasteve View Post
Who was using a snorkel and single tank at 185'?



for the discovery dive, I had air with 32%and 80% for deco. our plan was 185 for 5 minutes and 165 for 25 so when we dropped on the plane our working time was short. Heres my plan for next time

185ft (3) Air 50ft/min descent.
Level 185ft 16:18 (20) Air 1.38 ppO2, 185ft ead
Asc to 120ft (22) Air -30ft/min ascent.
Asc to 100ft (22) Nitrox 32 -30ft/min ascent.
Stop at 100ft 0:10 (23) Nitrox 32 1.29 ppO2, 81ft ead
Stop at 90ft 1:00 (24) Nitrox 32 1.19 ppO2, 73ft ead
Stop at 80ft 1:00 (25) Nitrox 32 1.09 ppO2, 64ft ead
Stop at 70ft 2:00 (27) Nitrox 32 1.00 ppO2, 56ft ead
Stop at 60ft 2:00 (29) Nitrox 32 0.90 ppO2, 47ft ead
Stop at 50ft 4:00 (33) Nitrox 32 0.80 ppO2, 38ft ead
Stop at 40ft 4:00 (37) Nitrox 32 0.71 ppO2, 30ft ead
Stop at 30ft 4:00 (41) Nitrox 80 1.53 ppO2, 0ft ead
Stop at 20ft 3:00 (44) Nitrox 80 1.28 ppO2, 0ft ead
Stop at 15ft 12:00 (56) Nitrox 80 1.16 ppO2, 0ft ead
Surface (56) Nitrox 80 -30ft/min ascent
What is the (quantitative) advantage of 32% versus air on the ascent?
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Old 12-24-2011, 05:39 PM   #41
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Arrow Re: Found. Avenger Aircraft. Flight 19?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shcubasteve View Post
Who was using a snorkel and single tank at 185'?
Good questions Steve. Jim has the snorkel showing, mine is collapsible and in a BC pocket for possible use on the surface.

I own 3 sets of double tank rigs - two double 100 cube tanks and one double 150 cube tanks. I have used doubles extensively. With most of my dives below 200 feet, I now prefer a single 150 cube tank H-valve set up with two 40 cube side tanks for spearfishing. I have at my house eight side carry deco bottles ranging from 19 to 80 cubes in size, but now prefer upside down back mounts with with easy valve access for hands-free spearfishing or filming.

The mixes I use now are bottom mix (tri-mix or air) in one of the 40 cubes for bail-out considerations and 60 % Oxygen for deco in the other 40 cube tank. The 60% choice is also based on bail-out considerations and you will find that total run times using a Cochran computer algorythm are around one hour total dive time. The bottom time is good too.

Finds like this plane will probably encourage more people to get into tech diving which by usual definition is anything below 130 feet.
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Old 12-24-2011, 05:42 PM   #42
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Re: Found. Avenger Aircraft. Flight 19?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
What is the (quantitative) advantage of 32% versus air on the ascent?


run the profiles of v planner. 185 for 20 min with 32% and 80% vs. 80% only... 7 minutes of deco and 30 cubic feet of backgas, shorter deep stops. Also, off gassing starts at 128, the mod of 32% is 132' @ 1.6. still debating profiles with my buddy
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Old 12-24-2011, 05:46 PM   #43
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Lightbulb Re: Found. Avenger Aircraft. Flight 19?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shcubasteve View Post
run the profiles of v planner. 185 for 20 min with 32% and 80% vs. 80% only... 7 minutes of deco and 30 cubic feet of backgas, shorter deep stops. Also, off gassing starts at 128, the mod of 32% is 132' @ 1.6. still debating profiles with my buddy
Steve, V-Planner is a great piece of software that I have used for many years. You and your buddy will be debating this for a while. Tech opinions vary far and wide and everyone has one or two. Tony
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Old 12-24-2011, 08:00 PM   #44
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Re: Found. Avenger Aircraft. Flight 19?

How about 50% Steve. 3 min more deco instead of carrying another bottle with you. That's what I'll be running in an AL80.
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Old 12-25-2011, 12:40 AM   #45
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Re: Found. Avenger Aircraft. Flight 19?

That's incredible! Sucks it's not a Flight 19 Avenger (of course that would lessen the mystique around the triangle)...but still an awesome find guys! And the videos are just incredible. Hopefully you are able to get someone from the military out to help with it.

On an aside...it must have been tough to not want to blast that gag or that hog! That hog looked massive!
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