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Diving Safety, Accidents and Incidents Post here to discuss accidents, incidents, ideas, gear, or anything else to improve spearfishing safety. Memorials and condolences threads should be placed in that separate forum.

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Old 03-03-2014, 06:08 PM   #1
SpearMax
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Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

THIS THREAD WAS CREATED FOR EDUCATIONAL DISCUSSION.

RIP threads are usually very positive and reflect on the good things about the lost soul.

Educational Accident or Incident analysis posts and threads can become quite confrontational and judgmental.

Often members will not post thoughts and questions on RIP threads because of concerns about perceived disrespect to the family and friends of the deceased. In the new approach to these situations, we will start separate (but linked) threads and move "accident analysis" posts to these directly related "Educational Discussion" threads. The content can be diverse and we will have tolerance for questions and comments on people's minds that can be somewhat controversial in order to hopefully educate all readers. Please keep the discussion civil.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kylo1597 View Post
RIP. sad day for everyone involved. For those of you without facebook, here is Rok's story..




This is the story that no one ever wants to tell. I can't tell you how tramatic of an event this has been for me.
<>
I wrote this for Mike's family, and it is only with their permission that I am able to send this to all of you.

I am not loooking for anything other than prevention, that this possibly can stop this shit from happening to anyone of y'all. Please head this as a warning sign. Make it your gospel. Spearfishing is an extreme sport, spearfishing the oil rigs is even worse, it's dangerous, divers don't usually get hurt, the end result is usually death.

I beg you please, preach saftey to all divers, no matter how confident they are.

Rok

p.s. Mike, I only met you 8 months ago, and we have lived many lifetimes on the several dive trips we made together. We had many plans to explore many more adventures. but our time together was cut way too short. Just think of the stuff we could have killed if we had only 8 years. I loved you from the very first day we met. We had the same mindset even though you were 20 years younger than me. I will see you again some day my friend, just not today.

RIP my brother!


Mikes Last Dive 3/1/2014



To the Reed Family.

I can’t tell you how sorry I am for your loss, and I can’t even imagine how you guys feel. I had loved Mike from the first time I met him. Mike came into my life as a package, it was always Mike and Blade from the first day he showed up at my house. And even though I’ve only know him for a short while we became very quickly, very close friends.

The trip,

Mike texted me earlier in the week, that he wanted him and I to go diving Saturday, March 1st. I told him I’d already be down in Venice fishing and that we could make that happen. Through the course of the week, he got David Hood, another one of my closest personal friends to join us.

It was going to be great because David, knows my boat in and out. This was also Mike’s first time on my boat. I told David, that him and Mike were to get my boat from my house in Kenner, and bring it on down to Venice, 2 hours away.

February, 28th, that evening, David called me and told me they were having problems, the front disc brake on David’s truck locked up, so the next plan was to use Mike’s truck, but when Mike got to Metairie, his alternator went out. They were both at Wil Demuth’s house to pick up tanks, so with both trucks broke down at Wil’s, Wil offered them his truck. I knew they weren’t going to get down to Venice until very late so I went to bed. I woke up to them at around midnight.

The next day, I got up at around 7am and David woke up with me, I had to go into Mike’s room twice to get him up, I told him no hurry but he needs to start stretching or something. I’d say we left the dock around 8:30am. Mike had brought a friend, Justin to come along as a fisherman.

We headed down river, and out of this little pass called Southeast pass, entering the gulf about 35mi. away from the marina. And we were going to head east for about 20 mi. once in the Gulf, then dive our way to the north in order to keep the waves at our stern and come back into land thru a tiny pass called Octave pass, some 20mi. north of Southeast pass. We were going to make sort of a loop and dive a few select rigs in this loop.

The entire way down the river and out into the Gulf, Mike was an absolute chatterbox. I mean he didn’t stop, and David was on the other side of me, so I was being bombarded. The whole time I’m trying to concentrate on driving, he’s asking me questions about this and that. We were making plans to go bluewater fishing the next day, we were planning to go to Toledo Bend to shoot catfish, we were making plans! I could tell he was so excited and so happy and I was only thinking about how much fun we were going to have, and how much fun we were going to have with all the bullshitting and laughing we were going to do on the ride home.

We pulled up to the first rig and David grabs the rope, and Mike tells Justin, watch how these boys throw the rope, to catch the rig. He told Justin, “these boys know what they are doing.”

We had to tie up twice, because the current was going the opposite way of the waves, but we hung off the South side of the rig just fine. There was very little current and very little murk on the surface. The rig sits in 240’ of water.

Mike had asked me how deep it was and when I told him 240’ he said that’s perfect. I told him this rig had a bunch of scamp groupers on it, and that we shouldn’t have a problem shooting one and coming up. Mike said he wanted to go down and start stringing scamps up and shoot a whole bunch of them. I told him, NO YOU DON’T. I specifically told him this is a one shot game, you go down, shoot and come straight back up. He sort of argued with me, and then he reassured me that he would go down, shoot one time and come back up. We suited up, David on the bow, and Mike in the back next to me. I had told him that last week, I’d seen about a 70lb. cubera on this rig. BTW, cuberas always hang in the shallower column of the water level. So I hadn’t planned on even diving deep.

Mike had attempted to put his GoPro camera on his head but somehow after charging it all night it wouldn’t come on.

Before we entered the water, Mike said something to me about, “y’all just go ahead, I take a little extra time to get ready”, I told Mike, “no way”, I told him, “we all go down together, we all come up together.” I told Mike and David, the best way to get that cubera, was for all 3 of us to swim to the second pipe on the rig, and all of us stay behind that pipe, and descend, staying hidden behind that pipe.

The Dive;

On the way down, I saw David out of the corner of my eye, but I never really saw Mike other than one glimpse of him over to the side, he was not on the second pipe with me and David. The reason I could barely see David also was because I was swimming in front of David, but I knew he was close. At 110’ there was a deck, and I just peeked my head around that pipe to see if the cubera was on top of that deck, I didn’t see him so then I dropped a little more and looked underneath that deck, nothing. I now left the 2nd pipe, and started swimming into the conductor pipes in the center of the rig, and now I could see David very well on the side of me as we circled the conductors. We dropped to 150’ and there was fish ever where. All of this time I’m trying to find Mike but I can’t locate him. I shot a small scamp at around 150-155’ and threw the shaft back into my gun, looked at David who was right next to me and started looking for Mike. That is when I noticed a stream of bubbles coming from below all the way to the outside of the rig. I went over to those bubbles, trying to look down, but after 155’ the water started getting dark and murky. It also appeared as if the bubbles were getting stronger meaning the diver was ascending. I stayed at this depth for a minute waiting to even see if this was Mike, and then I made the decision to drop down to see what was going on. I was dropping really fast trying to get to the source of the bubbles. I had checked my gauges before I dropped and know I only had about ½ of a tank of air, and I checked my gauges at max depth, 235’. I was only 5’ off the bottom and could see the bubbles but could not see Mike, I was screaming and yelling to the top of my lungs but I could not go any deeper as now I only had 500psi. left in my tank. I started to think that the rig was leaking bubbles because the source of the bubbles was coming from the bottom of the Gulf and I didn’t want to die to find a leaky pipe.

I blew up my BC and hauled ass for the surface, at 200’ I passed David, who saw what was going on and tried to keep an eye on me. When I got to 30-20’ I had barely anything left in my tank, me and David stayed on the corner leg of the rig, motioning hand signals, about Mike. Before I could completely finish my decompression, I was out of air, but my meter was in good shape as this was only the first dive of the day.

Back at the Boat;

When we hit the surface, we started asking Justin if Mike was already on the boat, and he told us “no.” I told David, if that was Mike’s bubbles, he’s dead. We both got on the boat, and after about 2 minutes, Mike popped up slumped over. Both me and David jumped in the water and half way to Mike I thought it would be better for me to get back on the boat and bring the boat to them. Not to mention, I’d have to set up an oxygen bottle. I frantically pulled at first aid gear, and David and Justin had Mike at the ladder, we couldn’t get him in the boat because he was so heavy. In the process, his BC and tank got unbuckled and dropped back into the water. We finally got him in the boat, and I started yelling MAYDAY on channel 16, diver in distress.

I then started yelling at the rig, for them to lower the personnel carrier, but nobody was looking over the side, so I had planned to jump on the rig, but the current going the opposite way of the waves was making that impossible, at this point I had Justin driving the boat, and he couldn’t handle getting the boat into position. I then had to take over the helm and I nosed the boat to the rig and got Justin to jump off the bow, and up the ladder to get help.

I know David was working on Mike, but I could barely stand to look to the back of the boat where they both were. Finally, the rig workers lowered the personnel basket and David and I wrestled Mike into the basket and David took the ride up and onto the rig, but Mike was already gone, and we’re not really sure if he ever was there after surfacing several minutes earlier.

These are the details to the best of recollection, it just so happened that I had this data logger on me. Dr. Stein had wanted me to take it down, for a fish study to determine water depth and temperatures at that depth. This was my first dive ever with the data logger. Some of the depth numbers in these details may be off but the data logger will give the exact depths, once I get that information I will forward it to you.

If there was only one thing that could’ve been changed. On the way back, I was towing the boat, and the bearing burned up, my boat is sitting on the side of the road at Delta Outboards down in Empire, I couldn’t make it back home with my boat, I wish the damn thing would’ve burned up on them the night before and the boat wouldn’t have made it down there, but no doubt, we would have been persistent enough to fix it, and still go diving.

I’m so sorry for your loss,

Louis Rossignol
Tragic loss Louis. Thanks for the details. May peace be with Mike's family and friends like you. Tony
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Last edited by SpearMax; 03-10-2014 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 03-08-2014, 07:31 AM   #2
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".

in shanty let me sum it up for you briefly, not sure what kind of gas they were breathing but for the most part in spearfishing and diving deep on scuba your best to be on air at about the 240' and under. Reason is as you read roc's report when he was down to 500 psi and thought the air bubbles could've just been from the oil rig he came up and did his deco and then surfaced. One of the things you can do when you're diving air to deep depths is you can come up from 240 feet really fast and once you hit like 110 feet then you slow down because the air bubbles are very very small that you built up, at this point when you Breathe bubbles out you do not want to pass them on your ascent.

Now the other thing is when you descend down and you know you're going to dive deep, you want to take as minimal breaths as you can, the more air you inhale the more nitrogen you inhale. Which also affects nitrogen narcosis, in other words if you would descend extremely fast and only take like 2 to 3 breaths to 200 feet or so, one you have a lot of air in your tank, two you can think clearly because you do not have nitrogen in you to get nitrogen narcosis to a degree.

Now you never know what actually happened but I've recovered numerous amount of divers in Lake superior, it was simple money back 25 ta 30 years ago, I would simply just go down there Anchorline and then go on either side of the wreck if they weren't on the wreck, and there they were all peaceful with no air in their bottle most of the time.

Sometimes with the night before that rock described to a degree if you're not hydrated no sleep and a few other factors, even though you've accomplished to dive Deepair, air can be toxic at 220' and you can pass out.
So as I read the dive I would say that he passed out hit the bottom and was lucky enough to have his regulator in and kept breathing. at this point you are not doing anything vigorous so you're taking very small amount of Air in. He woke up look at his gauge and shot to the surface. whereas if you would've shot to 110 feet and slowed his ascent he might not have been unconscious when he hit the surface. But he would definitely have to take another tank and go down to decompress or go to the chamber.

And the thing is you don't know how to take care of the situation when you wake up because it seems like you were only down for a minute or two. I have lost some good friends in Lake superior because after they learned how to deep air dive and had very many successful dives, it happens all of a sudden.

Not everyone can do this it's part of your physics and how determined you are to be able to dive deep air. Myself I can go to 300'and it's actually pretty simple as you know once you get to depth you just start flying just like a jet, and then you hit the elevator button, then you check the situation out and start coming back to comfortable safe depth.

I have over 1000 Deepair dives on wrecks in Lake superior, yanked up over 100 divers that didn't make it, 90% only had a single tank. The only reason I had a sheriff's card is because I was a diver that could find divers and retrieve them. As soon as they decided that they want you to do a video and then retrieve the body, I was done, I was not going to start doing Trimix dives spending a hell of a lot of time down at deep depths, take my boat out and my time, it cost too much money for what they were willing to pay.

So actually they wanted to learn and try to have evidence on how divers died, and it's plain and simple the same thing that you read in a book in the 70s when you learn how to dive, and to what your physiology is.

inshanity I hope that gives you a little insight as there are a few more scenarios, just one which has nothing to do with this one but if you low-pressure inflator hose was not hooked up and you just kept sinking, and the reason I say this is when I pulled these divers up there were over a dozen that didn't have the low-pressure inflator hose connected.

All in all all diving can be safe, whether it is deep air, Trimix, or one breath, just make sure that everything feels fine when you're in the water.
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Last edited by kehloken; 03-08-2014 at 07:43 AM.
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Old 03-08-2014, 09:59 AM   #3
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".

RIP, thoughts and prayers to his friends and families. Kehloken thanks for that write up for those of us that don't scuba.
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:16 AM   #4
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".

thank you kehloken. i was trying to make sense of it all and you helped greatly
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Old 03-08-2014, 01:21 PM   #5
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".

Thanks for the lesson! This story, and others makes me want to hang up the fins for good.
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Old 03-08-2014, 01:50 PM   #6
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".

Quote:
Originally Posted by inshanity View Post
Thanks for the lesson! This story, and others makes me want to hang up the fins for good.
+1 x2
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Old 03-08-2014, 04:58 PM   #7
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".

Thanks kehloken for your explanation of the possibilities, especially directed towards the freediver readers. I would like to expand a little on your comments just to clarify some points you made.

I am technical diving certified in various courses like Decompression Procedures, Solo Diving, Trimix, etc. but by no means am I an instructor or some kind of expert. My deep diving experience is fairly extensive in number of dives at various depths on air and on trimix.

Regardless what I have done tech diving, I defer with great respect to the thoughts, comments and opinions of many other much more qualified and experienced people on this board like HeadHunter, aue-mike, jadairiii and other friends.

There really is no such thing as proper tech dive training on the Internet. If tech diving (generally defined as scuba below 130 feet) is your passion, go out and get real training in course settings with classroom, pool and ocean sessions. There is no substitute for that knowledge and experience. However, we all read things on the Internet and much of it can be very accurate and useful for diving safety and improvement of diving and spearfishing techniques.

With that preface said, here goes my two cents of expansion on kehloken’s comments which expands on three deep diving dangers:

1.)Carbon Dioxide Excess - Hypercapnia
2.)Nitrogen Narcosis – Rapture of the Deep
3.)Oxygen Toxicity - Hyperoxia

Quote:
Originally Posted by kehloken View Post
in shanty let me sum it up for you briefly, not sure what kind of gas they were breathing but for the most part in spearfishing and diving deep on scuba your best to be on air at about the 240' and under. Reason is as you read roc's report when he was down to 500 psi and thought the air bubbles could've just been from the oil rig he came up and did his deco and then surfaced. One of the things you can do when you're diving air to deep depths is you can come up from 240 feet really fast and once you hit like 110 feet then you slow down because the air bubbles are very very small that you built up, at this point when you Breathe bubbles out you do not want to pass them on your ascent.

Now the other thing is when you descend down and you know you're going to dive deep, you want to take as minimal breaths as you can, the more air you inhale the more nitrogen you inhale. Which also affects nitrogen narcosis, in other words if you would descend extremely fast and only take like 2 to 3 breaths to 200 feet or so, one you have a lot of air in your tank, two you can think clearly because you do not have nitrogen in you to get nitrogen narcosis to a degree.
Scuba divers who go deep should learn about the effects of Carbon Dioxide and avoid what is known as “Skip Breathing.” Here is a quote from an Internet source on this subject:

“Skip Breathing: In an effort to reduce air consumption, many divers hypoventilate or skip breathe. This involves extremely slow breathing. The diver exhales fully and then holds his breath "out", keeping his lungs empty for a period of time before breathing in. Hypoventilation increases the carbon dioxide level in a diver's lungs. Skip breathing can be dangerous because of the risk of hypercapnia.”

Quote:
Carbon Dioxide and Scuba Diving
By Natalie Gibb

Most scuba divers do not learn about carbon dioxide during theopen water course. Because the likelihood of carbon dioxide-induced problems is almost zero when proper diving practices are followed, the topic is often skipped over in certification classes.

However, carbon dioxide levels in a diver's bloodstream can rise under certain circumstances, and the effects can be disastrous. This article is not intended to frighten, but merely to inform. When a diver understands the risks of high concentrations of carbon dioxide, he is less likely to engage in behaviors that may predispose him to those risks.

Carbon Dioxide and Breathing:
The body needs a small amount of carbon dioxide for normal body functions. One of these functions is respiration. When a person inhales, he breathes in oxygen which his body metabolizes to create energy. One of the waste products of this metabolic reaction is carbon dioxide, which is eliminated from the body when the person exhales. Interestingly, it is the rising level of carbon dioxide in a person's bloodstream (not the falling level of oxygen) that signals the need for respiration.

How Does Your Body Maintain Safe Carbon Dioxide Levels During a Dive?:
A diver's body is constantly producing carbon dioxide, which it eliminates through exhalation. When a diver requires more energy, such as during moderate exercise, his body breaks down oxygen rapidly to provide that energy at a faster rate. This speeds the production of carbon dioxide. To keep the blood level of carbon dioxide steady, a diver's body increases his respiration rate to eliminate excess carbon dioxide, balancing its production and elimination.

Carbon Dioxide in a Diver's Body Can to Rise to an Unsafe Level:
Any factor that causes the concentration of carbon dioxide in a diver's body to rise to 45 mg Hg and above induces hypercapnia – a potentially dangerous excess of carbon dioxide. There are two situations in which this can happen.
• The concentration of carbon dioxide a diver inhales increases.
• A diver does not eliminate carbon dioxide as quickly as he produces it.

The Dangers of Hypercapnia:

1. Loss of Consciousness.
Carbon dioxide has an anesthetic effect on a diver's central nervous system. If the concentration of carbon dioxide rises to 75 mg Hg (depending upon the person), a diver may lose consciousness. Underwater, loss of consciousness is usually fatal – an unconscious diver generally loses his regulator and drowns.

2. Narcosis
The anesthetic properties of carbon dioxide at elevated concentrations can cause narcosis. Some of the common effects of carbon dioxide narcosis are the slowing of mental processes and the loss of dexterity. Only a very small increase in carbon dioxide levels is needed to produce these effects; carbon dioxide is four times more narcotic than nitrogen. In addition to producing narcosis on its own, carbon dioxide can also amplify the narcotic effects of nitrogen and other gases.

3. Oxygen Toxicity
The human body has a programming glitch. It uses the level of carbon dioxide in the bloodstream to determine how much oxygen the body needs. In normal environments, this works well – as the carbon dioxide level increases, so does breathing rate, carbon dioxide elimination, and oxygen absorption. The higher the level of carbon dioxide, the harder a diver's body works to absorb oxygen. Unfortunately, in scuba diving high levels of oxygen can lead to oxygen toxicity, generally characterized by convulsions that result in drowning. High carbon dioxide levels cue the body to increase oxygen concentrations, speeding the onset of oxygen toxicity.

4. Decompression Sickness
Many hyperbaric physicians now believe that high levels of carbon dioxide may increase the risk of decompression sickness. One scenario is that high carbon dioxide levels interfere with the transport and elimination of nitrogen in the lungs. If the body is working hard to eliminate and exhale excess carbon dioxide, it will not be able to eliminate nitrogen as efficiently as it would if the carbon dioxide were not present. High levels of carbon dioxide lead to elevated levels of nitrogen in the body, which increases the risk of decompression sickness.

Avoid Elevated Carbon Dioxide Levels While Scuba Diving:
The most common behaviors and situations that increase the carbon dioxide concentration in a diver's bloodstream are listed below. By avoiding these situations, a diver nearly eliminates the risk of hypercapnia.

Improper Breathing Techniques
Hyperventilation: When a diver hyperventilates, he fills only a small portion of his lungs and fails to fully exhale. This creates "dead" air spaces - spaces in the lungs and regulator in which air with high concentrations of carbon dioxide are not fully replaced with normally oxygenated air. For example, the first few mL of air a diver inhales from his regulator is "recycled," air with a high level of carbon dioxide from his previous exhalation. A diver must inhale fully to get past this air and receive fresh air. If a diver does not fully exhale, some of the of the old, carbon dioxide-filled air will remain in his lungs and he will breathe it again with his next breath. The concentration of carbon dioxide in a diver's lungs and regulator "dead" air space increases with each hyperventilated breath, leading to an increase in the level of carbon dioxide in his bloodstream.
Skip Breathing: In an effort to reduce air consumption, many divers hypoventilate or skip breathe. This involves extremely slow breathing. The diver exhales fully and then holds his breath "out", keeping his lungs empty for a period of time before breathing in. Hypoventilation increases the carbon dioxide level in a diver's lungs. Skip breathing can be dangerous because of the risk of hypercapnia.

Physical Exertion
On land, a person's body adequately deals with the increased production of carbon dioxide during physical exertion by raising respiration rates. Underwater, the excess carbon dioxide is more difficult to eliminate. The breathing resistance of the regulator and the greater density of inspired air at depth make it nearly impossible for a diver to increase his breathing rate to match strong physical exertion. Either the diver begins to hyperventilate, increasing the level of carbon dioxide in his lungs while the carbon dioxide level in his bloodstream also increases, or he maintains a slow and steady breathing rate which is insufficient to eliminate the huge excess of carbon dioxide in his body.

Deep Diving Without Proper Instruction and Gases
Air and other breathing gases become denser as they compress with depth. The more dense the air, the more difficult it will be for a diver to properly empty and fill his lungs with each breath. The result is retained carbon dioxide in the diver's lungs, similar to the situations listed in "Improper Breathing Techniques" above. This is yet another reason for divers not to go beyond the depth limits of their certification level. Deep diving courses train scuba divers in proper breathing techniques and teaches them about the gas mixtures needed for deep diving. Proper training will help deep divers avoid the risk of hypercapnia.

Poorly Functioning Breathing Equipment
Regulators that breathe "hard" or increase the resistance of breathing can increase the level of carbon dioxide in a diver's bloodstream. When breathing resistance increases, divers find it hard to draw a full breath and exhale fully. Again, this leads to unintentional hyper- or hypoventilation, which increases carbon dioxide levels. Keep in mind that some regulators will breath easily on shallow dives, but may be inappropriate at greater depths.

Breathing Gas Contamination
In contemporary scuba diving, it is extremely unlikely to encounter contaminated breathing gas. Strict regulations governing compressor use have helped to standardize tank filling practices. However, if the intake of a compressor is close to the exhaust from an internal combustion engine or other source of carbon dioxide, the air from the tank may contain abnormally high levels of carbon dioxide. While a high level of carbon dioxide may not cause any ill-effects when the tank is tested on the surface, underwater the increased concentration of carbon dioxide may lead to hypercapnia. Carbon dioxide is an odorless and tasteless gas, but other contaminants from exhaust are noticeable. Smell and taste the air from a scuba tank before diving with it. Any unusual findings could indicate that the tank air is contaminated with exhaust or other pollutants which may be accompanied by carbon dioxide. Report strange odors and flavors to the fill station or dive shop and don't dive if you think the tank may be contaminated.

Signs and Symptoms of Hypercapnia:
One of the problems divers face when dealing with elevated levels of carbon dioxide is that the signs and symptoms indicative of an increasing concentration of carbon dioxide may be masked by the dive environment. For example, symptoms such as elevated breathing rate may be attributed to excitement or cold water. Symptoms like headache may be misattributed or absent due to the high partial pressure of oxygen at depth. Unfortunately, this means that the first sign of carbon dioxide toxicity may be sudden unconsciousness.

Here are common signs and symptoms of hypercapnia.
• shortness of breath
• headache
• narcosis - confusion, slowed thought processing, loss of manual dexterity
• unconsciousness

Remember, Hypercapnia Is Avoidable:
Basic good diving practices can nearly eliminate the chance of hypercapnia. Hopefully after reading this article, you will be convinced to always . . .
• Use regulators appropriate for the depth of your dive
• Avoid exertion underwater
• Use proper breathing techniques
• Avoid deep diving without proper training, gear, and gas mixtures
• Smell and taste tank air to check for pollutants that may indicate an excess of carbon dioxide

Remember, knowledge is power. The more you know, the safer you will be underwater. Happy Diving!

Continue Reading: http://scuba.about.com/od/divemedici...uba-Diving.htm
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Last edited by SpearMax; 03-09-2014 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 03-08-2014, 05:00 PM   #8
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Lightbulb Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".

Another important thing to learn about in deep diving is how Nitrogen Narcosis affects you personally. Here is some discussion of this subject:

Quote:
Nitrogen Narcosis and Scuba Diving Part I - What Is Narcosis, How Does It Feel?

By Natalie Gibb

Guiding a group over a small shipwreck at ninety feet, I looked to my right and noticed that one of my divers was laying on his side in the sand. What in the world? I swam to his side and flashed an “okay” sign at him. He looked at me, slightly cross-eyed, and grinned around his regulator. Then he giggled and pointed at the shipwreck. I had seen enough divers exhibit similar behavior to recognize that he was experiencing nitrogen narcosis. In diver jargon, he was “narced”. I ended the dive and ascended. On the surface, he told me that during the dive he thought that he was upright, and that the shipwreck, the divers, and the ocean floor were all turned on their sides as some sort of silly joke.

What Is Nitrogen Narcosis?:
Nitrogen narcosis is an altered state of mind caused by breathing nitrogen at a high partial pressure. The deeper a diver descends, the higher the partial pressure of nitrogen and other gasses in his air will be. For this reason, nitrogen narcosis is usually thought of as a function of depth. The deeper a diver goes, the greater the narcosis. (Learn how to treat nitrogen narcosis.)
Although nitrogen is the principle component of air (79%), other gases in a diver's tank are also narcotic at great depths, such as oxygen and carbon dioxide. For this reason, many training agencies are now referring to the narcosis caused by breathing compressed air at depth as “inert gas narcosis” rather than “nitrogen narcosis”. Of course, oxygen and carbon dioxide are not inert gases, so perhaps the best term to use is simply “narcosis”. Whatever you call it, the point is that more than one gas may influence a diver's level of narcosis underwater.

Narcosis has been called the “rapture of the deep” and many divers compare narcosis to a feeling of pleasant drunkenness. In fact, divers sometimes use the “Martini Rule” to roughly estimate the effects of narcosis during a dive. Depending upon the source, the Martini Rule states that for every 30 or 60 feet of depth, a diver experiences the narcotic effect of drinking one martini.

At What Depths Do Divers Experience Narcosis?:
The average depth at which a diver experiences at least a mild narcosis is 100 feet of seawater. By 140 feet, most divers will experience significant narcosis. Diving beyond 140 feet (the recreational diving depth limit) while breathing air is strongly discouraged by mosttraining organizations. Some divers will make dives up to 160 - 190 feet on air, but such dives require deep air training, and are generally frowned upon. If a diver exceeds a depth of 200 feet wile breathing air, he is likely to experience debilitating narcosis – even unconsciousness.

How Does Narcosis Affect Scuba Divers?:
Narcosis has an anesthetic effect on a diver. Of course, in most cases of narcosis the anesthetic effects of are not extreme, and the diver experiences a somewhat altered state without the complete loss of consciousness.

1. Emotional Effects of Narcosis on Divers:
Depending upon the diver and the dive environment, narcosis may cause a diver to feel either positive, euphoric emotions or negative, stressful emotions. Both scenarios are dangerous.

A diver feeling overly relaxed and happy may fail to react appropriately to a dangerous situation because he feels that everything is fine. An example is a euphoric diver who notices that he has exceeded his tank reserve pressure, but decides to continue diving because he feels great and therefore isn't worried about running out of air.

A diver who experiences feelings of dread or stress may perceive problems which do not exist or may react inappropriately to those that do. An example is a stressed diver who notices that he has reached his tank reserve pressure. He panics, inflates his buoyancy compensator, and rockets to the surface because he is afraid that he will run out of air if he makes a normal controlled descent, even though he has more than sufficient air to do so.

2. Narcosis Slows and Impairs Mental Abilities:
Narcosis affects a diver's ability to reason, evaluate situations, decide on appropriate courses of action, and recall information. Narcosis also slows a diver's thinking and reaction times. In effect, a diver experiencing narcosis thinks less clearly and more slowly than he normally does.

Foggy thinking and reasoning underwater is dangerous. Even normal situations can lead to potential disasters as a diver's mental abilities decline. As an example, a diver who is negatively buoyant may fail to inflate his buoyancy compensator because he doesn't recognize the problem (failing to evaluate the situation). Or, he may try to compensate for negative buoyancy by kicking himself up (failing to decide on an appropriate course of action).

Continue Reading: http://scuba.about.com/od/divemedici...es-It-Feel.htm
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Old 03-08-2014, 05:01 PM   #9
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".

I agree with kehloken that there is not yet enough information as to what physical or medical calamity caused Mike’s loss. Perhaps, an autopsy will determine if a heart attack, air embolism, drowning, or other cause happened, but often diver autopsies do not reveal a specific cause and the passing is listed as a drowning. His buddies made a gallant effort to try and save him by diving down after him and by seeking help from the rig personnel.

To expand on kehloken’s post below that says “air can be toxic at 220' and you can pass out” Oxygen Toxicity is the culprit here.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kehloken View Post
Now you never know what actually happened but I've recovered numerous amount of divers in Lake superior, it was simple money back 25 ta 30 years ago, I would simply just go down there Anchorline and then go on either side of the wreck if they weren't on the wreck, and there they were all peaceful with no air in their bottle most of the time.

Sometimes with the night before that rock described to a degree if you're not hydrated no sleep and a few other factors, even though you've accomplished to dive Deepair, air can be toxic at 220' and you can pass out.

So as I read the dive I would say that he passed out hit the bottom and was lucky enough to have his regulator in and kept breathing. at this point you are not doing anything vigorous so you're taking very small amount of Air in. He woke up look at his gauge and shot to the surface. whereas if you would've shot to 110 feet and slowed his ascent he might not have been unconscious when he hit the surface. But he would definitely have to take another tank and go down to decompress or go to the chamber.

And the thing is you don't know how to take care of the situation when you wake up because it seems like you were only down for a minute or two. I have lost some good friends in Lake superior because after they learned how to deep air dive and had very many successful dives, it happens all of a sudden.

Not everyone can do this it's part of your physics and how determined you are to be able to dive deep air. Myself I can go to 300'and it's actually pretty simple as you know once you get to depth you just start flying just like a jet, and then you hit the elevator button, then you check the situation out and start coming back to comfortable safe depth.

I have over 1000 Deepair dives on wrecks in Lake superior, yanked up over 100 divers that didn't make it, 90% only had a single tank. The only reason I had a sheriff's card is because I was a diver that could find divers and retrieve them. As soon as they decided that they want you to do a video and then retrieve the body, I was done, I was not going to start doing Trimix dives spending a hell of a lot of time down at deep depths, take my boat out and my time, it cost too much money for what they were willing to pay.

So actually they wanted to learn and try to have evidence on how divers died, and it's plain and simple the same thing that you read in a book in the 70s when you learn how to dive, and to what your physiology is.

inshanity I hope that gives you a little insight as there are a few more scenarios, just one which has nothing to do with this one but if you low-pressure inflator hose was not hooked up and you just kept sinking, and the reason I say this is when I pulled these divers up there were over a dozen that didn't have the low-pressure inflator hose connected.

All in all all diving can be safe, whether it is deep air, Trimix, or one breath, just make sure that everything feels fine when you're in the water.
Here is a discussion of Oxygen Toxicity in scuba diving:

A common problem in diving is too much oxygen (hyperoxia). In this article I will review the mechanism of oxygen toxicity and in a follow up article I will review the signs and symptoms of oxygen toxicity.

Air is composed of 21% oxygen (O2). We require O2 to survive and without O2 we will die very quickly. Our bodies don’t actually care what percentage O2 we breathe, they respond to the partial pressure of O2 (pO2).

On the surface the partial pressure of O2 in air is 0.21 ATA (0.21 * 1.0 ATA = 0.21 ATA). As we saw in the last column, if we are young and healthy our bodies perform perfectly well at partial pressures of O2 down to 0.16 ATA and we can easily tolerate a pO2 of 0.12 ATA at rest. With chronic exposure we can adapt to even lower pO2s.

However, when we dive we are usually exposed too much higher pO2s. The human body is able to tolerate increased partial pressures of oxygen, up to about 0.45 ATA, without problem. When the pO2 rises above that level, toxic effects will eventually appear. The toxic effect of oxygen on the lungs is primarily a problem of long exposures (many hours or even days) to pO2s of between 0.45 and 1.6 ATA. At pO2s above 1.6 ATA, the toxic effects of oxygen on the brain occur (minutes to a few hours) before the toxic effects on the lungs.

Many recreational divers will not have to worry about oxygen toxicity because when diving air, the pO2 will never be high enough, for long enough, to cause problems. The narcotic effect of nitrogen causes air divers to limit their depth to a maximum of 130 fsw (40 msw). At that depth breathing air, the pO2 is just over 1.0 ATA, too low to worry about CNS toxicity. The limited size of our air supplies keeps bottom times short enough that we usually do not have to worry about lung toxicity.

However, many recreational divers are now diving Nitrox with up to 40% oxygen and some are using higher levels of oxygen or even pure oxygen for decompression. When you breathe higher percentages of oxygen, toxic effects are seen at shallower depths. The O2 in air does not reach a partial pressure of 1.6 ATA until a depth of 218 fsw (66 msw), far deeper than a recreational diver will go. However, the O2 in Nitrox40 will reach a pO2 of 1.6 ATA at a depth of only 99 fsw (30 msw), a depth most recreational divers will dive too on a regular basis. In addition, using Nitrox allows you to dive longer before requiring decompression stops, and to do shorter decompression stops if you get into decompression. As a result, recreational divers are using larger tanks, or multiple tanks, and doing longer dives. These longer dives also increase the risk of O2 toxicity. Therefore, all divers should have at least a basic understanding of oxygen toxicity.

Oxygen is a colourless, odourless, tasteless gas and makes up 20.98% of air by volume. The toxicity of oxygen is a function of the pO2, the time of exposure, and individual variation. There is a marked difference in the susceptibility of individuals to oxygen toxicity, and a change in the same individual from day to day.

The toxicity of oxygen is really a function of the pO2 in the cells and all cells will eventually die if they are exposed to a high enough pO2 for a long enough period of time. In living, breathing humans however, there are only two tissues that we need be concerned about, the lungs and the brain. The toxic effects of oxygen on these tissues will incapacitate us before the other tissues have a serious problem. To be perfectly correct, a third tissue can become a problem in rare instances where a rebreather diver has done a lot of diving, every day, for several days in a row. The eye can become near-sited. This ‘Hyperbaric Induced Myopia’ is beyond the scope of this column.

In general, the susceptibility of a cell to oxygen toxicity is related to its rate of metabolism. A resting cell is relatively resistant while an active cell is more susceptible.

This next point is critical to understanding oxygen toxicity. Normal oxygen is a molecule composed of two atoms of oxygen with a balanced number of protons and electrons so that the molecule does not have an electric charge. This normal molecule of oxygen is not toxic!!

The problem is that whenever molecular O2 exists, it forms other substances known as ‘oxygen radicals’. Oxygen radicals are highly reactive molecules, formed from oxygen, which often contain at least one extra electron. These molecules are formed from collisions between oxygen molecules, collisions between oxygen and other molecules, and as a result of metabolic processes in the cells. Examples include superoxide anions, hydrogen peroxide, hydroperoxy and hydroxyl radicals, and singlet oxygen. Oxygen radicals will often bind to the next molecule they come in contact with, usually damaging or changing that molecule. Therefore, whenever you have O2, you will have O2 radicals. Even if there was some magical way to remove all of the oxygen radicals from a tank of oxygen, more would immediately form. The number of O2 radicals is proportional to the partial pressure of O2.

There are hundreds of specific chemical reactions that oxygen radicals can be involved in that damage the cell, but in general terms there are three ways that they cause damage. The first is through inactivation of enzymes. Enzymes are proteins that work as catalysts, causing reactions to occur that would not normally occur at body temperature. They do this by holding the two molecules that are to react in exactly the right orientation to each other so that they join. The resulting molecule is released and the enzyme starts again, repeating the process thousands of times. If the shape of the enzyme is changed, the molecules will not be held in the right orientation and the reaction will not occur. Oxygen radicals cause cross-linking of sulphydryl groups, thereby changing the shape of the enzyme and inactivating it. They also cause changes in the shape of proteins responsible for transport of ions in and out of the cells across the cell membrane, stopping them from functioning. Finally, oxygen radicals cause peroxidation of the various lipids in the cells.

All cells in oxygen breathing animals have ways to inactivate oxygen radicals and to repair some of the damage done by them. The two main defenses are superoxide dysmutase and catalase. Both of these enzymes help maintain a good supply of reduced glutathione. Reduced glutathione has many sulphydryl groups and oxygen radicals will bind to them, and thus be unavailable to cause damage to the cell. Vitamins E and C are also anti-oxidants.

Oxygen radicals are not only important in diving, but are becoming very important in medicine. One of the methods white blood cells (WBC) use to kill bacteria is to enclose the bacteria in a membrane and then to inject oxygen radicals into the vacuole (the WBC makes the O2 radicals). The oxygen radicals actually kill the bacteria. In addition we now know that O2 radicals are the final method of damage in many diseases. Oxygen radicals are therefore both ‘good’ and ‘bad’.

It would seem reasonable to conclude that if O2 radicals cause cellular damage, taking ‘anti-oxidants’ should help reduce the damage. So far, the results of many well-designed studies have failed to show any benefit from taking anti-oxidant supplements. Some benefit has been shown when increased amounts of anti-oxidants are consumed by eating foods high in anti-oxidants. This suggests that something else in the food is required to get the beneficial effect of the anti-oxidants that is not available in the supplements.

The bottom line is that anytime O2 exists, O2 radicals will be formed. The number of O2 radicals is proportional to the pO2. All of our cells have defenses against the damage caused by O2 radicals. At normal pO2s, our cells are more than capable of repairing the damage being caused by the O2 radicals. As the pO2, and the number of O2 radicals is increased, a point is reached where the cells cannot repair the damage as quickly as it is occurring. Therefore, the damage will accumulate until the function of the cell is impaired or the cell dies.

Given the above explanation, it should be obvious that the toxicity of O2 will depend on the pO2 and the time of exposure. The other factor is that we are all biologically different and some individuals will have more defenses against O2 radicals than others. To further complicate the issue, our defenses against O2 radicals also change greatly from day to day. Therefore, we have marked differences in sensitivity to O2 radical damage in different people and on different days in the same person.

Continue Reading: http://www.diverite.com/education/re...en%20toxicity/
I hope this information is useful. Perhaps this discussion can inform all of us to not take anything for granted when practicing the sport we love whether free diving or scuba diving.

May Mike rest in eternal peace.

Good luck and be safe in your diving, Tony
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:06 PM   #10
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing....


Quote:
Originally Posted by kehloken View Post
in shanty let me sum it up for you briefly, not sure what kind of gas they were breathing but for the most part in spearfishing and diving deep on scuba your best to be on air at about the 240' and under. Reason is as you read roc's report when he was down to 500 psi and thought the air bubbles could've just been from the oil rig he came up and did his deco and then surfaced. One of the things you can do when you're diving air to deep depths is you can come up from 240 feet really fast and once you hit like 110 feet then you slow down because the air bubbles are very very small that you built up, at this point when you Breathe bubbles out you do not want to pass them on your ascent.

Now the other thing is when you descend down and you know you're going to dive deep, you want to take as minimal breaths as you can, the more air you inhale the more nitrogen you inhale. Which also affects nitrogen narcosis, in other words if you would descend extremely fast and only take like 2 to 3 breaths to 200 feet or so, one you have a lot of air in your tank, two you can think clearly because you do not have nitrogen in you to get nitrogen narcosis to a degree.

Now you never know what actually happened but I've recovered numerous amount of divers in Lake superior, it was simple money back 25 ta 30 years ago, I would simply just go down there Anchorline and then go on either side of the wreck if they weren't on the wreck, and there they were all peaceful with no air in their bottle most of the time.

Sometimes with the night before that rock described to a degree if you're not hydrated no sleep and a few other factors, even though you've accomplished to dive Deepair, air can be toxic at 220' and you can pass out.
So as I read the dive I would say that he passed out hit the bottom and was lucky enough to have his regulator in and kept breathing. at this point you are not doing anything vigorous so you're taking very small amount of Air in. He woke up look at his gauge and shot to the surface. whereas if you would've shot to 110 feet and slowed his ascent he might not have been unconscious when he hit the surface. But he would definitely have to take another tank and go down to decompress or go to the chamber.

And the thing is you don't know how to take care of the situation when you wake up because it seems like you were only down for a minute or two. I have lost some good friends in Lake superior because after they learned how to deep air dive and had very many successful dives, it happens all of a sudden.

Not everyone can do this it's part of your physics and how determined you are to be able to dive deep air. Myself I can go to 300'and it's actually pretty simple as you know once you get to depth you just start flying just like a jet, and then you hit the elevator button, then you check the situation out and start coming back to comfortable safe depth.

I have over 1000 Deepair dives on wrecks in Lake superior, yanked up over 100 divers that didn't make it, 90% only had a single tank. The only reason I had a sheriff's card is because I was a diver that could find divers and retrieve them. As soon as they decided that they want you to do a video and then retrieve the body, I was done, I was not going to start doing Trimix dives spending a hell of a lot of time down at deep depths, take my boat out and my time, it cost too much money for what they were willing to pay.

So actually they wanted to learn and try to have evidence on how divers died, and it's plain and simple the same thing that you read in a book in the 70s when you learn how to dive, and to what your physiology is.

inshanity I hope that gives you a little insight as there are a few more scenarios, just one which has nothing to do with this one but if you low-pressure inflator hose was not hooked up and you just kept sinking, and the reason I say this is when I pulled these divers up there were over a dozen that didn't have the low-pressure inflator hose connected.

All in all all diving can be safe, whether it is deep air, Trimix, or one breath, just make sure that everything feels fine when you're in the water.
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:22 PM   #11
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".

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A little knowledge is a dangerous thing....
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Old 03-08-2014, 08:07 PM   #12
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Re: RIP freediver "Michael Reed".

Spectacular post spear Max, it would take me forever to come up with that information and get it into words that somebody could comprehend easily. I also just went by experience from divers that actually lived after a bad episode.

This also brushed me up on the knowledge of Deep Air diving as I haven't read or thought about it in a while and I limit myself to a little over 200 feet, cause it's dead black in the Puget Sound at that depth, most every day.
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Old 03-09-2014, 08:18 AM   #13
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Re: RIP freediver "Michael Reed".

lots of great information. thanks to all for the technical post.
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Old 03-09-2014, 08:59 AM   #14
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".

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Originally Posted by kehloken View Post


Now the other thing is when you descend down and you know you're going to dive deep, you want to take as minimal breaths as you can, the more air you inhale the more nitrogen you inhale. Which also affects nitrogen narcosis, in other words if you would descend extremely fast and only take like 2 to 3 breaths to 200 feet or so, one you have a lot of air in your tank, two you can think clearly because you do not have nitrogen in you to get nitrogen narcosis to a degree.

My condolences to the family and friends.

A RIP thread is probably not the appropriate place to discuss diving techniques, but I thought I should offer the following:

I've never taken ANY technical training. But the advice above is not consistent with my personal experience.

Deliberately restricting normal breathing (to two or three breaths), while working hard to descend as fast as possible to 200 ft on air, is not what I would recommend as a way to avoid narcosis, promote clear thinking and avoid other diving problems.

In fact, rapid descents are often correlated with increased narcosis.

High work loads (i.e., swimming hard) are correlated with increased CO2 production. High levels of CO2 can cause mental impairment (working synergistically with the nitrogen impairment) and can also make the diver uncomfortable, prone to panic and could even incapacitate a diver if excessive.

Drastically reducing the rate of breathing will almost certainly cause CO2 build up.

So swimming really hard, deliberately reducing the breathing rate to an extreme degree and descending very rapidly (in the head down position) while breathing air to a depth that is 2 atmospheres past the recommended recreational depths...is not advice I would give to ensure that you can "think clearly".
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Old 03-09-2014, 09:18 AM   #15
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".

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A RIP thread is probably not the appropriate place to discuss diving techniques
Seriously Jim? I said that same thing during some of the RiP threads for Michael/OC and you didn't have a problem with it at all. I still have the PM's from you regarding it. Was that because one was free diving and this is SCUBA?
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