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Diving Safety, Accidents and Incidents Post here to discuss accidents, incidents, ideas, gear, or anything else to improve spearfishing safety. Memorials and condolences threads should be placed in that separate forum.

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Old 03-09-2014, 01:05 PM   #16
kehloken
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Re: RIP freediver "Michael Reed".

jfjf, as SpearMax pointed out this is not a learning session for Deep Air diving, but if you read the whole thing you would understand that I mentioned you do not use any Energy at all. you first let the air out of your BCD then put your hands in front of you and head down the slope or your Anchorline being as straight as possible and once you hit 100 feet you're cruising at a good speed at 200 feet your just incredibly flying down and I have my teeth tight and I just barely taken air just enough to beathe and feel comfortable. in other words the oceans pressure does all the work. The other thing that I will mention to you is that not everyone can do this.

jfjf your post is a good one for when someone is trying to get to depth by kicking down, I agree you will be Narked 170 completely as you say swimming hard(kicking).
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:21 PM   #17
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".

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Originally Posted by Deutschland Spearo View Post
Seriously Jim? I said that same thing during some of the RiP threads for Michael/OC and you didn't have a problem with it at all. I still have the PM's from you regarding it. Was that because one was free diving and this is SCUBA?
Hi Chad,

Good question I am sure Jim will answer.

Not to derail the discussion too much, but your question prompts a question to you and other posters:

Should a dedicated "Incident Discussion" thread be started whenever something like this happens whether it be free dive like Michael Burton or scuba like Michael Reed?

I am about to launch a major initiative on spearboard regarding accidents, incidents, deaths and injuries as well as safety involving Divers Alert Network, Dive Wise, Terry Maas and others.

When someone dies we often get many outsiders such as family and friends taking a peek at the board and sometimes joining and commenting.

As you know RIP threads are usually very positive and reflect on the good things about the lost soul.

Accident analysis posts and threads can become quite confrontational and judgmental. I recall the recent thread I posted about the father who took his young son cave diving where both of them died and some of the spearboard comments were fairly harsh.

For example, in the new approach I have in mind as applied to this thread, if I did start separate (but linked) threads, I would move "accident analysis" posts like those made by kehloken, me, aue-mike, jfjf and others to that directly related "Incident Discussion" thread. If I did that maybe the discussion would move forward to educate all readers because people's concerns about perceived disrespect to the family and friends might be lessened possibly.

I value your opinion on this touchy subject and recall the excellent things you did when Michael Burton passed like setting up separate family fundraising benefit threads.

Thanks, Tony
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Last edited by SpearMax; 03-09-2014 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:34 PM   #18
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Re: RIP freediver "Michael Reed".

I guess I can agree for the change spearmax, I hope the argumentation doesn't happen over there in those discussions, outdoor Catholic was one of the only guys that was civil in my learning to free dive thread, unfortunately he passed away a few months earlier than I knew because I did not come on here when I work.
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Old 03-10-2014, 12:50 AM   #19
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Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".

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Originally Posted by SpearMax View Post
Hi Chad,

Good question I am sure Jim will answer.

Not to derail the discussion too much, but your question prompts a question to you and other posters:

Should a dedicated "Incident Discussion" thread be started whenever something like this happens whether it be free dive like Michael Burton or scuba like Michael Reed?

I am about to launch a major initiative on spearboard regarding accidents, incidents, deaths and injuries as well as safety involving Divers Alert Network, Dive Wise, Terry Maas and others.

When someone dies we often get many outsiders such as family and friends taking a peek at the board and sometimes joining and commenting.

As you know RIP threads are usually very positive and reflect on the good things about the lost soul.

Accident analysis posts and threads can become quite confrontational and judgmental. I recall the recent thread I posted about the father who took his young son cave diving where both of them died and some of the spearboard comments were fairly harsh.

For example, in the new approach I have in mind as applied to this thread, if I did start separate (but linked) threads, I would move "accident analysis" posts like those made by kehloken, me, aue-mike, jfjf and others to that directly related "Incident Discussion" thread. If I did that maybe the discussion would move forward to educate all readers because people's concerns about perceived disrespect to the family and friends might be lessened possibly.

I value your opinion on this touchy subject and recall the excellent things you did when Michael Burton passed like setting up separate family fundraising benefit threads.

Thanks, Tony
Hey Tony,
Jim and I discussed in a PM.

As you know, this kind of thing happens in every diver death and as I said before, it's really unfair to the families and friends of those who passed. These discussions could be had in a proper manner/place like you have now mentioned creating. I feel it's long overdue... Pull the trigger and create that other section and move this stuff so we can get back to paying tribute and well wishes.

RiP Mike...
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Old 03-10-2014, 08:42 AM   #20
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Cool Re: RIP freediver "Micheal Reed".

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Originally Posted by Deutschland Spearo View Post
Hey Tony,
Jim and I discussed in a PM.

As you know, this kind of thing happens in every diver death and as I said before, it's really unfair to the families and friends of those who passed. These discussions could be had in a proper manner/place like you have now mentioned creating. I feel it's long overdue... Pull the trigger and create that other section and move this stuff so we can get back to paying tribute and well wishes.

RiP Mike...
OK Chad, I did it.

Everyone, please keep it civil and educational.
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Old 03-10-2014, 08:32 PM   #21
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

As in most tragic events one thing normally leads to the other or as they say a culmination of errors. I guess I will be the bad guy to come out and say it but had he been following state/federal regs he wouldn't have been wanting to "go to 160' and string up scamps" Not saying he wouldn't have went that deep but to stay at that depth any amount of time is not good. You better be hauling it up once you shoot a scamp and then bounce back down. Getting 2-3 scamps where they typically hang at 160' is usually a mandatory deco dive even when you bounce. To stay down there and string up or even reload is asking for all the technical stuff yall are talking about to happen. Hate to hear this happened. Hopefully we can all learn from this and educate others
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Old 03-10-2014, 08:33 PM   #22
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

An accident/incident discussion section would be beneficial to all IMHO. However, set parameters that it is not to be a place for memoriums or condolences. Set the tone as a hard factual look at what happened--right or wrong, what can be done to avoid a recurrance and how to teach/coach our community on the issue.
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Old 03-10-2014, 09:00 PM   #23
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Rather just have a condolences and memorial section.

Having had people I know die and then see internet knowitalls and jealous pissants dissect someone you love and miss is aggravating and serves no purpose.If you are so ignorant as to not be able to figure out what went wrong in a very difficult dive then having OCD cut and paste parties and pontificating gurus won't help.

I am sad for his bros,his family and that I never got to meet the kid or dive with him.
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Old 03-10-2014, 09:26 PM   #24
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

I think this is a great idea, Tony. It could save lives. I know that every time I hear of a death I am extremely interested to understand what went wrong.
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Old 03-10-2014, 09:43 PM   #25
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

I have created a new forum for RIP threads and renamed the previous Safety Forum as follows:

Memorials and Condolences for Diver Passings

This forum is intended for Rest in Peace Threads where we as a community offer condolences and memorialize those diver who have passed away. Safety, Accidents and Incidents discussion has a separate forum.


Diving Safety, Accidents and Incidents

Post here to discuss accidents, incidents ideas, gear, or anything else to improve spearfishing safety. Memorial and condolences threads should be placed in that separate forum.

Last edited by SpearMax; 03-10-2014 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 03-11-2014, 05:41 AM   #26
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

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Originally Posted by 100days-a-year View Post
....If you are so ignorant as to not be able to figure out what went wrong in a very difficult dive ....
Solo diving, Deep air....a simple dive made difficult by the pre-planning at the dock.

I hope anyone considering venturing into deeper water will go back and look at all of the diving fatalities and before reading all of the internet experts pontifications just notice the common denominators of each accident. Cave community did this years and years ago. What keeps showing up?

This fatality is no different, entering the water without sufficient gas, without a sufficient team, without the proper gas and without (what I would consider) sufficient goals. The last being the most important, first and foremost the team goal should be everyone comes back, build on that. Not this bull shit "every man for him self" mentality that is still so prevalent in tech/spear diving.

But it always gets back to Rule #1.
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Old 03-11-2014, 07:05 AM   #27
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

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Originally Posted by 100days-a-year View Post
If you are so ignorant as to not be able to figure out what went wrong in a very difficult dive then having OCD cut and paste parties and pontificating gurus won't help.
I don't consider myself to be ignorant but having never been SCUBA diving or trained on SCUBA I don't know why this could have happened. From what Rok said it didn't seem like they were down very long at all before sensing something was wrong.
How does one sink to the bottom then float up 200'+ to the surface?
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Old 03-11-2014, 09:57 AM   #28
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

"I am about to launch a major initiative on spearboard regarding accidents, incidents, deaths and injuries as well as safety involving Divers Alert Network, Dive Wise, Terry Maas and others. "

You made my day!
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Old 03-11-2014, 11:33 AM   #29
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Deutshland, when the thread got split up, in inshanty asked a similar question, which I gave past experience and scenario and it's on page 1 of this thread now, then spearmax totally told on deep air diving.

Other Scenario's as I briefly mentioned from the past is not having a low-pressure inflator hose hooked up, once you're going down when you go to slow up and there's nothing there you can't slow up you just keep going to the bottom.

Now since rock was out of there and left and did not see anything and obviously did not go back down the next day or anything, they were in the search of a big grouper and Mike might've shot the grouper went down to the bottom and struggle with it when It got all tied up and realized he was low on air and shot to the surface.

It can only be speculation, of course whether he had hooked his BC inflator because it would probably hooked up when he was on surface.

One thing Mike did was give all his willpower to the surface.

So was I was working on my boat yesterday I kind of realize what jfjf was talking, here is a guy who normally dive doubles on air and deco bottles, and was in the same bottom that JF JF was talking a gentle slope, he was lucky and lived to tell about it and only made one post about it. His name is Kirby and it's like the third or fourth post down on this pagehttp://nwdiveclub.com/viewtopic.php?...=kirby#p206920
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Old 03-11-2014, 12:25 PM   #30
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Taking time to reflect on such tragedies that happen far to often in our small tribe will undoubtedly serve to make us all safer.

Thanks Tony!
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