Home Tournaments Calendar Weather Merchandise Sponsors

Go Back   Spearboard.com - The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Boating Social Media Forum > General Topics (Non-regional) > Diving Safety, Accidents and Incidents

Diving Safety, Accidents and Incidents Post here to discuss accidents, incidents, ideas, gear, or anything else to improve spearfishing safety. Memorials and condolences threads should be placed in that separate forum.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 18 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 03-11-2014, 12:57 PM   #31
Spearooo
Registered User
 
Spearooo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Miami
Posts: 847
Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Something I read about in an old thread that seemed to make sense, In these safety discussion threads, it is perhaps best not to mention the full name of the diver, and use just first initials or screename, and maybe put in an area where only members can read it, so as to keep the focus on the facts, maintain sensitivity towards the family, and so not just anyone googling the deceased name will stumble upon a discussion, where likely diver are the only ones to benefit.

Not sure if thats possible. Just an idea.
__________________
This sig line is pointed at Billy Mac...
Team EXTREME member
Spearooo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 03:34 PM   #32
SpearMax
Forum Administrator
 
SpearMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Florida USA
Posts: 16,333
Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'o Cino View Post
"I am about to launch a major initiative on spearboard regarding accidents, incidents, deaths and injuries as well as safety involving Divers Alert Network, Dive Wise, Terry Maas and others. "

You made my day!
Michael. You are the man when it comes to this stuff. I hope you will be able to contribute from Europe like you always did from California.
Some people don't want to explore lessons learned when it come to these tragedies and I appreciate that position. But there may be some positive merit to this even if some are offended. The idea is not to play any blame games, but rather see if there are any lessons available.

Thanks, Tony
__________________
"Spearing is the path to enlightenment." --- Lao Tzu

“Live this day as if it will be your last. Remember that you will only find 'tomorrow' on the calendars of fools.”

---- Success Unlimited Author Og Mandino b.1923 - d.1996

Last edited by SpearMax; 03-11-2014 at 05:52 PM.
SpearMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 11:19 PM   #33
SpearMax
Forum Administrator
 
SpearMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Florida USA
Posts: 16,333
Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

When diving with the potential to go deep beyond the recreational diving limit of 130 feet, one must realize that they can go though the gas in their tank rapidly. Here is an explanation from an Internet reference source:

"As a scuba diver descends, the pressure around him increases (learn how depth effects pressure in scuba diving). This increase in pressure does not effect the air inside the diver's scuba tank because it is already compressed to a very high pressure and the scuba tank is a rigid container. However, the water pressure does compress air that exits the tank and flows through the scuba diver's regulator hoses and second stages. The quantity of air that fills 1 cubic foot of space at the surface will only fill ˝ a cubic foot of space at a depth of 33 due to the compression of water. Therefore, the quantity of air that fills a diver's lungs at the surface will only half fill his lungs at 33 feet. The deeper a diver goes, the greater the quantity of air required to fill his lungs with each breath, and the more quickly he will use up the air in his tank.

Air Consumption Rate All other factors being equal, a diver's air consumption rate, also called his Surface Air Consumption Rate (SAC rate) or Respiratory Minute Volume (RMV), will determine how long the air in his tank will last compared to the average diver. A diver with large lung volume (tall or large people) will require more air than a petite or short person with a smaller lung volume and will usually have a higher air consumption rate. A variety of factors effect an individual's air consumption rate, including stress, experience level, buoyancy control, and the amount of exercise the diver does on a dive.

Relaxed, slow, and deep breathing is usually the best way for a diver to reduce his air consumption rate."


Continue Reading: http://scuba.about.com/od/scuba101/p...-Tank-Last.htm
__________________
"Spearing is the path to enlightenment." --- Lao Tzu

“Live this day as if it will be your last. Remember that you will only find 'tomorrow' on the calendars of fools.”

---- Success Unlimited Author Og Mandino b.1923 - d.1996

Last edited by SpearMax; 03-12-2014 at 09:06 AM.
SpearMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 11:42 PM   #34
2fishin2
Pacific Spearo
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Age: 56
Posts: 3,172
Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

First, Im not pointing any fingers here, the only thing I would like to say is that ROK although as invincible as he thinks, was close to being a second fatality on that day. 500lbs air at 235ft is not a safe place to be at and pumping your BC full of air at that depth is doubly unsafe. I like everyone else hate to read these threads but really hate to read about unsafe diving practices even more.
2fishin2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2014, 03:17 AM   #35
'o Cino
Help! He's got me!
 
'o Cino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pordonone, Italy
Posts: 3,103
Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpearMax View Post
Michael. You are the man when it comes to this stuff. I hope you will be able to contribute from Europe like you always did from California.
Some people don't want to explore lessons learned when it come to these tragedies and I appreciate that position. But there may be some positive merit to this even if some are offended. The idea is not to play any blame games, but rather see if there are any lessons available.

Thanks, Tony
So true about reality. Even in our "perfect military world", the lowest of grunts to the high speed operators get the zap, and it's critical to do an honest analysis to avoid or decrease the odds of it happening again. Shame is, you will never get to "zero risk assessment".

I just taught some A1Cs how to increase their odds of walking out of a bad situation, by the use of 2 very simple tasks learned by AARs.

I'll help all I can from over here. It's a bit busy now....but Marcus can get you the whole story

This AAR is a worthy and righteous cause.
__________________
Michael Dong
Sportsko Ribolovno Drustvo "Umag"
Centro Pordononese Sommozzatori

Tank or Free, it's good with me
'o Cino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2014, 06:32 AM   #36
SpearMax
Forum Administrator
 
SpearMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Florida USA
Posts: 16,333
Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'o Cino View Post
So true about reality. Even in our "perfect military world", the lowest of grunts to the high speed operators get the zap, and it's critical to do an honest analysis to avoid or decrease the odds of it happening again. Shame is, you will never get to "zero risk assessment".

I just taught some A1Cs how to increase their odds of walking out of a bad situation, by the use of 2 very simple tasks learned by AARs.

I'll help all I can from over here. It's a bit busy now....but Marcus can get you the whole story

This AAR is a worthy and righteous cause.
http://www.allacronyms.com/cat/2/AAR

Yes I hear ya.
__________________
"Spearing is the path to enlightenment." --- Lao Tzu

“Live this day as if it will be your last. Remember that you will only find 'tomorrow' on the calendars of fools.”

---- Success Unlimited Author Og Mandino b.1923 - d.1996
SpearMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2014, 09:04 AM   #37
Behslayer
Senior Member
 
Behslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 4,755
Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Great thread Tony, These things do need to be discussed, reviewed, learned from. It is what the Victims would have wanted as well. Accidents happen. Mistakes get made. I think the idea of a section for discussion of incidents which is separate from the RIP's is ultra valuable.
Behslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2014, 06:25 PM   #38
jfjf
.
 
jfjf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Palm Bch County
Posts: 10,412
Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fishin2 View Post
First, Im not pointing any fingers here, the only thing I would like to say is that ROK although as invincible as he thinks, was close to being a second fatality on that day. 500lbs air at 235ft is not a safe place to be at and pumping your BC full of air at that depth is doubly unsafe. I like everyone else hate to read these threads but really hate to read about unsafe diving practices even more.
If I understand the way they dive, Rok shot down to that depth in a desperate attempt to rescue a good friend. It most definitely is NOT a safe place to be... 500 lbs and 235 ft.

HOWEVER, Rok would almost certainly have died if he did not do EXACTLY what he did (after making that extreme descent).

Inflate the BC (probably did not fill it), relax his legs, concentrate on trying to conserve air AND make a rapid and buoyant ascent from the deep to shallow water, where he performed an abbreviated deco stop. In a life or death emergency situation like this, the solo diver has no other choice (once he makes the decision to risk his life to save another). It is better to be bent or crippled on a boat than to be drowned on the bottom.

They take an extreme approach. Rok has gone to considerable trouble to try to help educate people about the unique dangers they face.

http://spearboard.com/showthread.php...rig+divers+die

I have no intention to defend the way they dive, but his response to being on the bottom with the needle near "E", IS something we can learn from.
jfjf is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2014, 08:22 PM   #39
2fishin2
Pacific Spearo
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Age: 56
Posts: 3,172
Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
If I understand the way they dive, Rok shot down to that depth in a desperate attempt to rescue a good friend. It most definitely is NOT a safe place to be... 500 lbs and 235 ft.

HOWEVER, Rok would almost certainly have died if he did not do EXACTLY what he did (after making that extreme descent).

Inflate the BC (probably did not fill it), relax his legs, concentrate on trying to conserve air AND make a rapid and buoyant ascent from the deep to shallow water, where he performed an abbreviated deco stop. In a life or death emergency situation like this, the solo diver has no other choice (once he makes the decision to risk his life to save another). It is better to be bent or crippled on a boat than to be drowned on the bottom.

They take an extreme approach. Rok has gone to considerable trouble to try to help educate people about the unique dangers they face.

http://spearboard.com/showthread.php...rig+divers+die

I have no intention to defend the way they dive, but his response to being on the bottom with the needle near "E", IS something we can learn from.
Agree with what you said. Im wondering if with his desire to find his buddy and narcosis might have caused him to make some less than smart decisions.

I agree they are extreme in diving. But that doesnt make their style correct. I really dont want to start a bashing thread about them however, what would we be discussing if Rok also didnt return?

It seems their extreme style might not had anything to do with what happened as the victim was on the surface anyways right? Maybe it was medical related.
2fishin2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2014, 05:30 AM   #40
jadairiii
Registered User
 
jadairiii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Posts: 1,900
Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fishin2 View Post
.It seems their extreme style might not had anything to do with what happened as the victim was on the surface anyways right? Maybe it was medical related.
Their "style" had everything to do with this incident, regardless of it being medical issue or not. Why is this so hard for everyone to admit?

It started on the boat, entering the water with the mind set "every man for himself" was the first mistake. They lost a member of the team and when they realized it, it was too late.

Second, and again on the boat, they all made the choice to enter the water without sufficient gas to conduct the dive.

Third, and again on the boat, they all made the choice to dive air.

And before anyone tries to say that you cant dive that way in their area and be "successful", you have to define "successful". Less drops, less fish but everyone comes home? Is that a bad day?
jadairiii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2014, 08:20 AM   #41
2fishin2
Pacific Spearo
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Age: 56
Posts: 3,172
Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Quote:
Originally Posted by jadairiii View Post
Their "style" had everything to do with this incident, regardless of it being medical issue or not. Why is this so hard for everyone to admit?

It started on the boat, entering the water with the mind set "every man for himself" was the first mistake. They lost a member of the team and when they realized it, it was too late.

Second, and again on the boat, they all made the choice to enter the water without sufficient gas to conduct the dive.

Third, and again on the boat, they all made the choice to dive air.

And before anyone tries to say that you cant dive that way in their area and be "successful", you have to define "successful". Less drops, less fish but everyone comes home? Is that a bad day?
Of course "their style" had many things to do with what happened. They are cowboys and everybody in the world knows it. I just dont want to start another pissing war. They wont listen or admit anything is unsafe about what they do and therefore will not change. We still dont know all the facts about what happened so, I still have a somewhat open mind about this incident.
2fishin2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2014, 09:31 AM   #42
laguna80
El Capitan
 
laguna80's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: D.C.
Age: 35
Posts: 1,450
Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Maybe I read the story wrong or perhaps read the wrong story, but it didn't sound like they entered the water with the every man for himself mindset. It seemed like the plan was for everyone to stick together.
__________________
Put a pregnant woman in water and she becomes a human submarine.
laguna80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2014, 06:25 PM   #43
briankinley2004
Registered User
 
briankinley2004's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 131
Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Hard to say what happened but their style is not "stay at 160' and string up scamps". I dive the rigs a lot and we bounce dive. Go down get a fish, come up to 40 ft or less. Takes a while to reload, string up, etc and usually (if computer & air are good) there is time for maybe two more drops max. Seems this guy had his mind made up to stay at 160' stringing up illegal fish. Rok told him not to but it appears he didn't follow the dive plan. Typically these guys bounce and don't stay down long. To string up fish at that depth or even reload is asking for trouble. As far as entering the water without sufficient air I don't see where it is revealed if there was air in the deceased tank or not. The transcript says it fell back in water with BC. It would be interesting to know if he was out of air or not. As far as Roks air he wasn't planning on going that deep and burned the air in an attempt to rescue a buddy. I would have done as much as possible to on the air I had.
briankinley2004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2014, 10:13 PM   #44
Tiny
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 693
Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Quote:
Originally Posted by laguna80 View Post
Maybe I read the story wrong or perhaps read the wrong story, but it didn't sound like they entered the water with the every man for himself mindset. It seemed like the plan was for everyone to stick together.
You didn't read it wrong, that's what I read too. Not sure what these other guys are reading (re: cowboys) but it wasn't ROC's initial post. He was more than clear on protocol and sticking together. And no, I don't know ROC from adam, I'm just reading what was posted by the OP.
__________________
It's a Republic, not a democracy.

Last edited by Tiny; 03-13-2014 at 10:23 PM.
Tiny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2014, 10:25 PM   #45
spearhunter11
Surgical Shooter!
 
spearhunter11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: clearwater,fl
Age: 34
Posts: 758
Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Quote:
Originally Posted by jadairiii View Post
Their "style" had everything to do with this incident, regardless of it being medical issue or not. Why is this so hard for everyone to admit?

It started on the boat, entering the water with the mind set "every man for himself" was the first mistake. They lost a member of the team and when they realized it, it was too late.

Second, and again on the boat, they all made the choice to enter the water without sufficient gas to conduct the dive.

Third, and again on the boat, they all made the choice to dive air.

And before anyone tries to say that you cant dive that way in their area and be "successful", you have to define "successful". Less drops, less fish but everyone comes home? Is that a bad day?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fishin2 View Post
Of course "their style" had many things to do with what happened. They are cowboys and everybody in the world knows it. I just dont want to start another pissing war. They wont listen or admit anything is unsafe about what they do and therefore will not change. We still dont know all the facts about what happened so, I still have a somewhat open mind about this incident.


Are you two serious?

Rok's words: Before we entered the water, Mike said something to me about, “y’all just go ahead, I take a little extra time to get ready”, I told Mike, “no way”, I told him, “we all go down together, we all come up together.” I told Mike and David, the best way to get that cubera, was for all 3 of us to swim to the second pipe on the rig, and all of us stay behind that pipe, and descend, staying hidden behind that pipe.

How is that everyone for yourself?

Every time a Hell Diver dies, or someone with them, you two are always shitting all over them!
spearhunter11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:42 AM.


The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Social Media Forum Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2014 Spearboard.com