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Diving Safety, Accidents and Incidents Post here to discuss accidents, incidents, ideas, gear, or anything else to improve spearfishing safety. Memorials and condolences threads should be placed in that separate forum.

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Old 03-14-2014, 01:11 AM   #46
2fishin2
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

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Originally Posted by spearhunter11 View Post
Are you two serious?

Rok's words: Before we entered the water, Mike said something to me about, “y’all just go ahead, I take a little extra time to get ready”, I told Mike, “no way”, I told him, “we all go down together, we all come up together.” I told Mike and David, the best way to get that cubera, was for all 3 of us to swim to the second pipe on the rig, and all of us stay behind that pipe, and descend, staying hidden behind that pipe.

How is that everyone for yourself?

Every time a Hell Diver dies, or someone with them, you two are always shitting all over them!
And you youself said it best :Every time a Hell Diver dies, or someone with them, you two are always shitting all over them!"

Their diving style is unsafe and not condoned by any sanctioned diving organization I know of. How many Helldivers have died compared to rest of population of organized diving groups? That would be interesting statistics.

So they were suppose to stay together, why didnt they? If they were so concerned with that, why didnt they ensure it happened?

And why is it every time I make a post, you come back with something just the opposite?

What Rok did was unsafe pure and simple. I do have an instructor rating and there is no way in hell I personally would ever condone those type of tactics as they have led to a number of deaths over the years.

And just because a person is missing, doesnt mean that a follow on unsafe procedure should be used to remedy the situation. Think of it like this, if the young mans body would have been found by Rok at the bottom of 235f while he was following what he thought to be his bubbles, would there have been enough time and for that matter air to bring them both to the surface successfully? I highly doubt that. So if not, then its extremely possible we might be talking about 2 deaths today vs 1. At 235ft on air people to not have the mental capacity to correctly access a dangerous situation like this.

Please dont turn this into a pissing match.
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Old 03-14-2014, 07:30 AM   #47
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

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Originally Posted by spearhunter11 View Post
Are you two serious?

Rok's words: Before we entered the water, Mike said something to me about, “y’all just go ahead, I take a little extra time to get ready”, I told Mike, “no way”, I told him, “we all go down together, we all come up together.” I told Mike and David, the best way to get that cubera, was for all 3 of us to swim to the second pipe on the rig, and all of us stay behind that pipe, and descend, staying hidden behind that pipe.

How is that everyone for yourself?

Every time a Hell Diver dies, or someone with them, you two are always shitting all over them!
Very Serious, there is a dead young man that shouldn't be. And if "we" are to learn from the mistakes made we all have to put aside the ego.

1. The 3 entered the water with a hard bottom in 235(ish) without adequate gas to bring to an OOA diver to the surface. How do we know that? Rok's own statement, 500 psi at max depth for a minimal bottom time.

Simple math, what are their SAC rates, and at the "worse case" how much gas would they need to get all of them off the bottom and do deco while sharing gas. With enough gas, everything slows down.

2. "If" they were a team, how did they loose one of their team?

3. Was air the best mix to use at 235, task loaded and looking for a missing diver?

Tough questions, but divers keep dying and the "usual suspects" are always present in one form or another, deep air, solo, inadequate gas.
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Old 03-14-2014, 06:55 PM   #48
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

These statements are true but the original plan wasn't to go to 235' as I read it. I don't think anyone intended to go to the bottom but it happened and Rok pushed the limits to try to rescue a dive buddy. 30 miles out in the gulf in a crisis situation there really isn't any other air mix available. Had they stuck to the plan air would have worked just fine
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Old 03-14-2014, 09:46 PM   #49
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

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These statements are true but the original plan wasn't to go to 235' as I read it. I don't think anyone intended to go to the bottom but it happened and Rok pushed the limits to try to rescue a dive buddy. 30 miles out in the gulf in a crisis situation there really isn't any other air mix available. Had they stuck to the plan air would have worked just fine
Air at 235ft exceeds 1.6 po2 ata, that is toxic. Of course he wasnt exposed to it for a long period of time however, fact remains what he did broke safety procedures taught at all diving organizations. I know the Hell Divers dont care and they make their own which, is a contributing factor to why we might be having this conversation in the first place.

It is extremely possible that Rok in his drunken state, could have died also either from CNS toxicity or loss of air trying to rescue the diver. He could have died from an embolism on his emergency ascent. He didnt push the limits, he broke them.

Attempting a rescue using improper procedures or equipment, can get you killed.

Rok is lucky to be alive and we still dont know the cause of death for the deceased.

Its about time some of you quit beating your chests and realize life is too short to take these kind of unnecessary risks. For what, a fish? Ask your sons and daughters if daddy can die for a fish???
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Old 03-14-2014, 10:23 PM   #50
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

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Its about time ALL OF US quit beating OUR chests and realize life is too short to take these kind of unnecessary risks. For what, a fish? Ask your sons and daughters if daddy can die for a fish???
We can agree on some things.

The point seems not to point fingers but to really emphasize that it can happen to any of us. novices, experts, free and tank divers alike. Your plans don't really matter after the fact.

The ocean can be a cruel mistress.

Being 100 percent aware of your buddies and constantly communicating each others intentions, wandering off is not responsible or considerate to others. It may be less macho to be constantly chit chatting and essentially asking for permission to follow a fish, but it will ground you and save either your or you buddies life some day.

I did infer from reading that the Plan was not to drop all the way to the bottom. I ask myself and we will probably never know what caused mike to go that deep, the one thing I can think of, he saw a Monster fish, at his planned depth, it was in his buddies blind spot, he gave chase and it lured him slowly deeper, he pulled the trigger, missing the kill shot, and got pulled down to the bottom, where perhaps a brief struggle ensued, I dont know its all conjecture.
But i think we can all agree this is a nightmare scenario I hope nobody ever has to endure.
The discussion is very helpful in expanding my understanding , thanks for contributing.
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Old 03-14-2014, 10:29 PM   #51
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Look buddy, I don't dive like they do and am not defending them or beating my chest. The point I am making is he (rok) didn't plan to dive to 235' He went that deep to attempt to rescue a distressed diver who didn't follow the plan. I guess you don't understand what I am getting at. People push the boundaries all the time when attempting to rescue someone who is losing their lives. Citizens run out in the middle of the interstate to get a freakin dog. Cops, firemen and our military risk their lives daily with proper training. I am not raising Rok to that level and do not know him personally. But I will say I would go as far as I could in an emergency above or below the water to help a distressed person that is dear to me. My point is that this was not a pre planned dive to 235' and was not a "search and rescue" dive. He was simply putting his life at risk to save another person who was obviously intent on breaking every law/rule that day. Had they even obeyed simple regulations on fishing seasons this wouldn't have happened. This guy broke all kinds of rules and serves as an example for everyone as to why we have rules/guidelines to follow.
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Old 03-14-2014, 10:39 PM   #52
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

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We can agree on some things.

The point seems not to point fingers but to really emphasize that it can happen to any of us. novices, experts, free and tank divers alike. Your plans don't really matter after the fact.

The ocean can be a cruel mistress.

Being 100 percent aware of your buddies and constantly communicating each others intentions, wandering off is not responsible or considerate to others. It may be less macho to be constantly chit chatting and essentially asking for permission to follow a fish, but it will ground you and save either your or you buddies life some day.

I did infer from reading that the Plan was not to drop all the way to the bottom. I ask myself and we will probably never know what caused mike to go that deep, the one thing I can think of, he saw a Monster fish, at his planned depth, it was in his buddies blind spot, he gave chase and it lured him slowly deeper, he pulled the trigger, missing the kill shot, and got pulled down to the bottom, where perhaps a brief struggle ensued, I dont know its all conjecture.
But i think we can all agree this is a nightmare scenario I hope nobody ever has to endure.
The discussion is very helpful in expanding my understanding , thanks for contributing.
Agree. The exact reason Im pointing out the problems Ive seen. Specific instances where long established guidelines were broken.

I wonder if we will ever know the true story. We can point fingers all day but, in the end a person died that day. If one person reading this changes one thing about their diving style to make them safer, then we've done our job.
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Old 03-14-2014, 10:50 PM   #53
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

"Now a days" I ALWAYS give my buddies a hard time for losing track of me, grill them for wandering off.

Can't seem to relax on a dive unless im 100 percent certain his eyes are glued to me. The very first thing I do when I pull out of a dive is always check to see if my buddy was watching, it is extremely comforting when the person is ALWAYS be your side when surfacing from a dive or about to pull the trigger.

Do is make me feel like a pussy? YES. Do is stop me from landing the odd suicidal fish? No. Should we preach STRICT buddy System to all who enter the water, i believe so, no more than ever, no matter the situation, its never worth it.

Stay SAFE.
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Old 03-15-2014, 07:51 AM   #54
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

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...My point is that this was not a pre planned dive to 235' and was not a "search and rescue" dive. He was simply putting his life at risk to save another person ....
Correct, but whenever you have a "hard bottom" you should plan your mix for that max operating depth. And having read (and enjoyed) Rok's other stories it is rare that they don't constantly go beyond their "planned" depth while fighting the fish.

But for argument sake, lets say they planned their gas for 150'. Standard mix for 150' would be 21/35. Good mix for that depth and, although not suggested, a whole lot better than air at 235'. Not that the ppo2's are different but you have a nice plug of HE that drastically reduces narcosis and CO2 build up. Add that mix to a set of double alu 80's and I would submit a different outcome to this tragedy.

And before anyone jumps on and claims you cant dive mix like air or doubles are too restrictive, I move just fine in a set of properly rigged doubles with a small doughnut wing and my buddies and I dive mix all the time just like EAN. Caveat, regardless of what mix we dive our profiles on accent, deco or not, are a bit different with some short stops deep (30 seconds).
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Old 03-15-2014, 06:37 PM   #55
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

So if I dive a wall in Cozumel in 2000 feet of water I should plan on going that deep and have gas for that depth? I can just tell you I plan pretty much every dive in the gulf as a bottomless dive because you usually encounter a murk layer with zero viz before you hit the bottom. That murk can be 100feet or more above the bottom. Sometimes we dive in 300-400 feet of water too and don't plan on going that deep. Thats why we don't free shaft because you probably won't ever be able to find it even if it is shallow enough to get to. I guess I have been doing my planning wrong.
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Old 03-15-2014, 07:59 PM   #56
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

Air is toxic when it's toxic.CMAS used 2.0.P02.Oxtox is about as subjective as narcosis
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Old 03-15-2014, 09:19 PM   #57
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

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Air is toxic when it's toxic.CMAS used 2.0.P02.Oxtox is about as subjective as narcosis
I dont think at >200ft narcosis is subjective and 1.4 is the accepted level in rec diving community open circuits.

You are a very seasoned and accomplished diver and flippant statements like yours is exactly NOT what this thread should be about. Im actually surprised.
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Old 03-16-2014, 07:40 AM   #58
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

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So if I dive a wall in Cozumel in 2000 feet of water I should plan on going that deep....
Go back and read my post. I specifically stated "when diving a hard bottom".

Your post reminds me of what my trimix instructor told me the first day of class in 1997, "take the cotton out of your ears John and put it in your mouth, you may learn something".

But if I were diving a deep wall and planning to go deep I would dive one "standard mix" deeper than my planned max depth.
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Old 03-16-2014, 07:45 AM   #59
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

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Air is toxic when it's toxic.CMAS used 2.0.P02.Oxtox is about as subjective as narcosis
I would argue that oxtox is even more subjective and more insidious.

If any of your have been "lucky" enough to feel the onset of an oxtox event, it is a scary thing. Far worse than narcosis, it does not always give you warning signs. I did not like Sam I am!
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Old 03-16-2014, 08:04 AM   #60
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Re: Educational Discussion of Michael Reed Accident/Incident

You actually need to leave this thread, you are a recreational scuba instructor, there is nothing that you can or will learn on this thread. This thread is of a real diver, not a recreational diver. Your post before this post have no credible information at all, Any Post after this post is going to be even more information that doesn't matter at all and is no use to this thread.
I will sum it up simply for you, when you talk about this guys diving in post 46, there is the only diving that was around that does condone in this diving, they have changed their diving but all the ones that learned to dive back then are still alive. And they are called Navy divers, all navy divers on this planet know what diving is about. Are not just stuck in the recreational scuba world.
Another statement that you made post 46 of how these Divers died compared to the rest of the population of organized diving groups, well you can just use Dan because you're a recreational diver, over 80% of the population that have died are recreational scuba divers. It's a simple fact not everyone can dive, the scuba diving agencies will manipulate with the scuba retailers that everyone can dive just to make money.

In other words there are going to be scuba deaths all the time it will never end.

Mike had a diving accident end of story.



As far as diving helium you cannot come to the surface immediately after you get a Deco obligation. Trimix divers have accidents also. I was launching my boat a little over a decade ago, the best tech instructor here in the Pacific Northwest which I did not know that at the time come walking out of the water at the boat launch and said call 911, I looked out to the water looked at him so okay pulled my phone out of my pocket. And told the 911 operator what he told me I was diving trimix down to 330 feet and I came all the way to the surface, I need to get to the chamber immediately my fiancé I'm going to marry this weekend is down there doing her Deco. He told me he was going to die, I kept him conscious until his ride came, within a few minutes of getting to the chamber he died.

The reason the Navy used air is because there divers can come to the surface and Clime into a chamber, now the Navy divers can Clime in to a chamber with Heliox and trimix but it has to be immediately, no pause whatsoever.

This thread and diving accident is not about recreational scuba diving, and anyone who post on here that has no sense about this kind of diving does not belong on this thread.
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