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Old 01-13-2019, 08:10 PM   #181
popgun pete
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

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Originally Posted by doyenofcastle View Post
In last exhibition in DUBAI Meandros triggers maker try to explain how he start to use a single roller in his mechanism and how its transferring loading better than ERMES for long service life ,as I could understand due to the phenomena of creep stress that result from load at the roller pin ,a permanent deflection of the pin will be grown with time that lead to disengaged of spear ,it won't be secured engaged after long service ,he tried hard to explain ,if I know Greek language I think I can get what he is trying to say ,Is their any idea regarding that ?
Trigger mechanisms depend on a stable geometry as all the clearances and locking positions depend on the travel arcs moving components into their required final positions as originally designed. Wear can change the geometry over a long period of time on any mechanism, but movement of the pivot pins and axles is generally non-existent as they are hard and short in terms of being a column. Not so the support pins/axles for low friction rollers as they can be bent at the support frame, so they need to be made of tough stuff. If the rollers don't roll and always offer the same contact point every time (you only have line contacts at best) then you may have flats form which changes the geometry. For that reason you don't see rollers used in Main Battle Tank trigger mechanisms, something that was discussed here many years ago.

Last edited by popgun pete; 01-13-2019 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:42 PM   #182
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

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Thanks but that is not the same mechanism.
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:36 AM   #183
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

Actually this should be moved to the Pathos DR trigger post. Anyway I did get that D1 trigger and I just happened to install one yesterday. In my case the problem was that the trigger sear had a big extension in the back, similar to what is there on the D2. This is to engage the safety. Since the safety does not work on the Pathos, this extension is not needed, so I just chopped it off. To keep that extension on it would have taken some major work to make the trigger sear be able to move as the space for the plastic trigger sear is around 4mm and the new SS trigger sear is 6mm. Without the extension, installing the trigger is very quick and simple. Just a few passes with a dremel and a sanding head to remove some plastic to allow the side line release to move freely (about 2 or 3 passes) and plug the trigger in.

I have told Mario about this extension and that it is absolutely not needed and will only make installation much more problematic. Hopefully he removes it in future versions. Anyway, it is not that difficult to cut that off and I actually just used a big wire cutter and then ground the end and polished it off.

On another note, I also got to install the DR trigger for the D2 and it seems absolutely perfect. I will try to post up testing on both these new triggers as they dramatically improve the functionality of the Pathos guns.
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Old 03-28-2019, 01:59 AM   #184
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

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I had originally thought that the pin in the roller tooth might have helped drop the load transferred to the sear lever by leaning on the side slots and transferring some of the spear pull force there, I actually stated this in an earlier post and even drew a sketch diagram showing it, but I don't recall seeing any comment one way or another as to whether that was what was happening. Well if the "axle" pin in the roller never touches the sear box side slots under the loaded condition then the roller’s periphery will just push on its cradle, which I assume is a matching curved notch in the sear lever arm positioned about where a fixed tooth would normally be. I have no problem in understanding how the euroshaft version works because the roller tooth there is cupped between two curved surfaces, the shaft tail notch on top and the sear lever arm notch from below, when the mechanism is all locked up. I have been fishing for a while in a series of past posts here trying to find out how the US style roller tooth can follow the sear lever down when the latter is freed by the trigger without it being subsequently pushed forwards and engaging the side slots as unlike a euroshaft there is no downwards push from the tail notch. The roller tooth is not falling down solely due to its weight as the release action is very fast.

When the sear lever swings during the release all of its elements in the forward arm above a horizontal plane defined by the sear pivot pin are moving down and forwards on their travel arcs centred on the sear pivot pin. Upon pulling the trigger the roller tooth will be pushed forwards by the US spear tail and try to climb up over the forward lip of the cradle which is moving down out of its way. It could be that with the roller tooth thus being rotated at that lip that its rear face rolls down out of the spear tail notch at the rear because its rear surface is trying to push the spear tail up, but the spear tail cannot move up, so the roller goes down. A sign of this happening would be the roller tooth spinning momentarily after the shot.

One feature of most reverse trigger mechanisms is there is no floor under the sear box mouth, in fact there is only a roof mounted some way back, so the shaft tail can deflect while unhitching itself from the sear tooth and the roller tooth preventing any jerking of the release is what is improving the performance in terms of the gun’s accuracy. The standard trigger mechanism with trigger at the rear often has a floor or a mouth that more closely encircles the shaft tail, thus the spear tail has less freedom to move around as it pulls free from the sear tooth. The Sea Hornet/Biller reverse trigger mechanisms have a long, shaft encircling sear box mouth, but that pushes the wishbone notches further forwards on the shaft and also creates a deeper mechanism which modern reverse trigger mechanisms have eliminated in the desire to mount the wishbones closer to the rear end of the gun and move the trigger pivot higher up in the gun. I suggest that is why the roller tooth has not been used in a two lever mechanism before these more open and shallow (in relative terms) sear boxes appeared as the shaft tail previously had less freedom to move.
A solution as I alluded to here is a longer sear box roof reaching forwards that keeps the spear tail down after the tooth disengages. The open top or wide throat reverse trigger mechanisms don’t impose enough control on the shaft and allow an extra degree of freedom for the shaft to move other than strictly longitudinally. You will not lose a longer wishbone draw if the sear box roof is slotted to allow the spear loading tabs to protrude through the roof slot, then you don't need a roller tooth to keep the spear tail stable as it clears the slot. Here I have drawn up an approximation of what it would look like.

This in a sense emulates an enclosed track gun where the shaft tab slot runs right up to the sear box mouth entrance and the shaft is constrained to move only longitudinally. Pressure on the sear box roof from the shaft climbing the sloping ramp tooth is still resisted by the non-slotted section of the spear box roof and once the tooth descends on pulling the trigger any upward pressure immediately falls and the slotted roof section will easily control the spear tail. Reverse trigger mechanisms with long sear box roofs date back to the Sea Hornet trigger mechanism and if it had been available in its wide lever form then it would be a mechanism for high power use. Such mechanisms were produced, but only sold in limited numbers as the economics of the day favored producing the lightweight thin lever model and this continued into the plastic cassette version after cessation of the all metal cassettes being produced.

Ideally the sear box mouth should have a floor as well as a roof and a problem with these shallow reverse trigger mechanisms is the sear lever forward arm occupies what would be the floor, but as it drops away there is no floor. There are too many degrees of freedom for the shaft tails in these mechanisms and that is why they cannot absolutely control the release in terms of off-axis movement of the shaft tail and the spear shaft leaping about on the track when a lot of power it being applied to the shaft. As a direct contrast the "forward" trigger mechanisms impose an encircling retainer for the shaft in cast alloy housings with a distinct shaft tail tunnel and the mortise and cassette mechanisms usually cup under the shaft tail as long as the mechanism levers are not as wide as the spear tail.

Last edited by popgun pete; 03-28-2019 at 03:00 AM. Reason: more info
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Old 04-25-2019, 05:10 PM   #185
doyenofcastle
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

update ,I have used this trigger with ORCA spear (spearmaster) ,in the last saturday when I was loading the second band spear misfired , gun butt hit my chest very strong ,I checked the trigger when I went home and noticed the roller was heavy rusted ,does anyone experience this kind of problem ? I am going to switch to SS spear but spring steel more tough and can withstand more rubber stretch before starting to oscillate ,even though I have hard times with Neptonic trigger because of the difficulty of fixing the trigger but still they are durable and can handle this kind of rusty spears without misfiring .
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Old 04-25-2019, 06:04 PM   #186
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

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Originally Posted by doyenofcastle View Post
update ,I have used this trigger with ORCA spear (spearmaster) ,in the last saturday when I was loading the second band spear misfired , gun butt hit my chest very strong ,I checked the trigger when I went home and noticed the roller was heavy rusted ,does anyone experience this kind of problem ? I am going to switch to SS spear but spring steel more tough and can withstand more rubber stretch before starting to oscillate ,even though I have hard times with Neptonic trigger because of the difficulty of fixing the trigger but still they are durable and can handle this kind of rusty spears without misfiring .
Corrosion in a trigger mechanism is a bad look and speaks of poor material selection, or is rust simply transferred from the spear, which seems unlikely given how much rust we can see here. Was this gun stored on its butt for a long time with the spear sitting in it unwashed, in which case metal corrosion if the spear was not spring stainless may have left rust in the sear box. Maybe you have only told us half the story.

Last edited by popgun pete; 04-25-2019 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 04-25-2019, 06:06 PM   #187
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Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

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Originally Posted by SEA_ARCHER View Post
Should be good, I have yet to see one in a mid handle.


It is good
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:43 AM   #188
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

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Originally Posted by doyenofcastle View Post
update ,I have used this trigger with ORCA spear (spearmaster) ,in the last saturday when I was loading the second band spear misfired , gun butt hit my chest very strong ,I checked the trigger when I went home and noticed the roller was heavy rusted ,does anyone experience this kind of problem ? I am going to switch to SS spear but spring steel more tough and can withstand more rubber stretch before starting to oscillate ,even though I have hard times with Neptonic trigger because of the difficulty of fixing the trigger but still they are durable and can handle this kind of rusty spears without misfiring .

There is no way on earth 316 SS will rust like that, especially SS that is heavily polished (as in the ermessub trigger). I have put these triggers in a Salt Bath to check for corrosion and zero corrosion even after 2 weeks. However, the roller is made of 17-4 PH hardened SS so that it does not get damaged from hard shafts such as high carbon shafts and even 17-4 ph shafts. Corrosion resistance of 17-4 PH is similar to 304 SS (which is what a high percentage of triggers are made of) and it is much less than 316 SS but is also softer. There is a possibility that the back roller did get contaminated with corrosion from the high carbon shaft and that has leached through. If you are using high carbon shafts (especially in high salinity water such as the Red Sea) you should pay special attention to your gear. The Red Sea has double the salinity of other seas and is also very warm ... I really think that if you want to use High Carbon shafts you need to use extra precautions for your gear. I also hunt the Red Sea and have tried high carbon shafts and gave up on them. Usually the flopper and tip were the problem where the flopper pin hole would corrode away the hole and fish easily lost There is a possibility that the back roller (which is 17-4 PH) is getting some galvanic corrosion with the high carbon shaft and that is causing this corrosion. Remember that the high carbon shafts have a coating that will wear off very quickly in abrasion areas (such as the shaft notch) and once that happens they will corrode extremely fast. If you insist on using these high carbon shafts then you should remove the shaft out of the mech after spearfishing ... wash the mech and shaft with fresh water and wait until they are completely dry. I would then spray the entire spear with WD 40 and concentrate on the flopper area and the back notch area ... and only then place the shaft back in the mech ... or even avoid that completely and just put a 17-4ph SS shaft for storage. Just put the high carbon shaft back in the mech when you want to spearfish.

Obviously you could also just replace your existing 17-4 PH SS back roller to a 316 SS back roller. It will get dinged up a lot faster than the hardened 17-4 PH back roller, but it would certainly not suffer the corrosion issue that the 17-4 PH roller might be having. I will ask Mario if he can make a batch of these 316 SS back rollers ... they are just 7mm diameter and 10mm length with a 2.6 mm hole in the center (you could make it yourself). They would be very easy to change out and wouldn't even have to open up the trigger. Just punch out the center spring pin in the back roller and put the new 316 roller and tap in the spring there. Probably about a 30 second job.

By the way ... high carbon shafts do not shoot better than 17-4 ph SS shafts ... that is a myth. I have tested a dozen high carbon shafts and they all shoot poorly. Most likely that is because they are mass produced and designed as a low cost disposable shaft ... so they tend to be not straight and very difficult to get to shoot accurately. For the Red Sea, where visibility is crazy good, long accurate shooting is very useful, I would stick to 17-4 PH ss shafts. Also ... a high carbon shaft in the Red Sea will rust even with a 316 SS roller and that might still not fix things ... but this will also happen with any SS trigger and you will still have misfires. The issue is that the carbon back tang will corrode away and you have less area for the shaft to hold on to the sear shaft ... this will happen less if you use 316 SS back roller or 316 SS shaft sear, but it will happen at a slower rate than 304 SS or 17-4 PH SS.

Last edited by spearq8; 04-26-2019 at 01:10 AM.
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:56 AM   #189
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

Can you post a video for replacing that roller ,I dont think it can be replaced without removing the trigger
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Old 04-26-2019, 04:28 AM   #190
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

The fix besides cleaning the gear is don't store your guns with the shafts in them. I keep all my guns separate from their spears which has the advantage of making them less desirable to steal in a quick grab and run as thieves usually want a quick sale. Spears should only be in the guns before the dive starts as you prepare to set off for the day's fishing. Spears once cleaned can be transported in plastic tubing used for air conditioning or plumbing work, in fact spears are often mailed through the post in such tubing.
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Old 04-26-2019, 06:22 AM   #191
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

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Can you post a video for replacing that roller ,I dont think it can be replaced without removing the trigger
It really is very simple and here is some pictures to illustrate how to do it. From the pictures though, I would want to put the entire trigger in some kind of cleaning to remove the surface rust that is there or the corrosion contamination caused by the carbon shaft. I did a little research on this and found that indeed high carbon shafts and stainless steel are not compatible as high carbon shafts have an anodic index of .9 while SS is around .45. The maximum acceptable to minimize galvanic corrosion is .15 and obviously the difference between the two metals is much higher. Of course this also depends on the quality of the high carbon shaft and how well it is coated against corrosion. With a good quality coating the anodic index will probably be far lower than .9 and thus not a problem. But even with the best coating, it will wear off eventually ... especially in a high abrasion area like the shaft notch area. This probably shouldn't be a big problem as the sacrificial anode in this case would be the shaft (at least I think so) and it is quite large and will take a while for corrosion to be a factor. However exposed edges of the carbon shaft might have accelerated corrosion, especially if a catalyst is present (salt water or even just humidity with some salt). So my best advice is that if you have to use your high carbon shaft ... just take extra precautions and keep an eye on how fast the corrosion is eating up the shaft sear notch. Don't store your gun with a high carbon shaft in the mech. By the way this is a problem with any SS trigger and high carbon shafts ... and not just this trigger. The anodic index would also work the same for 304 or even 316 SS triggers. So even changing the roller to 316 or 304 would probably not change things ... and one of the nice things about the back roller in 17-4 PH is that it is much harder than 316 or 304.

1. This is what I used, the punches are 2.5mm and 3.5mm
2. Lay the trigger on the side and make sure there is space for pin to go our in back and use the 3.5mm punch to get the pin started
3. Once the pin is pushed to the beginning of the roller use the 2.5mm punch to push it straight through
4. Press the trigger and once the shaft sear drops the back roller will fall out
5. To install the back roller again just reverse the steps






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Old 04-26-2019, 06:51 AM   #192
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

Actually I just thought of another solution to this ... if you insist on using high anodic index shafts in a high catalyst medium (high salinity water), you could ground your trigger to an area where you can put a SS bolt with magnesium washers. The idea is to have the magnesium washers act like a sacrificial anode and protect the shaft and trigger from any corrosion. If you can't find magnesium washers even bare aluminium washers would work. Of course Once the magnesium washers corrode you just replace them. I know we are over engineering things here but something to think about
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Old 04-26-2019, 08:34 AM   #193
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

Hey Majd,

I'm having issues with the trigger not resetting. After a squeeze it comes forward, but not completely.

I do not have any pinch points in the mech, its in there securely but it has space on the sides and bottom.

should i just try to grease the springes with marine grease and give it a couple wiggles?

Can the springs be upgraded to something heavier?

Thanks!
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:05 PM   #194
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

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Hey Majd,

I'm having issues with the trigger not resetting. After a squeeze it comes forward, but not completely.

I do not have any pinch points in the mech, its in there securely but it has space on the sides and bottom.

should i just try to grease the springes with marine grease and give it a couple wiggles?

Can the springs be upgraded to something heavier?

Thanks!
The line release spring is not a good solution ... I would take it out and simply use a shaft loading protocol that has you nudging the line release back before loading the shaft.

This was actually one of the things on a list I had that could be improved. Auto resetting was especially problematic with the longer DR version. I did spend quite a long time on this and fortunately found a good way to make this work. All the new version of DR trigger will have this, but I am using it on my older triggers as well. I just simply drilled the line release hole from 3mm to 5mm and used a spacer that was 5mm outside diameter with a 3mm center hole and 2.7mm height. The 2.7mm height gives just enough space for the line release to move freely (line release is 2.5mm thick) and you can comfortably tighten the line release screw all the way and line release will work perfectly. The effort needed for auto resetting after the spacer sleeve is identical to the effort needed if you had manually pushed the line release back. I can now auto reset the long DR trigger with a pinkie while before it was almost impossible and you really needed to smash the shaft in for it to auto reset (if it resets). It works almost like magic and just shows that if you spend time on a problem there usually is a good solution. The new DR that will be released soon will have this as well as many little improvements. I know Mario ordered a ton of these spacers to be made and they will be standard on all his new triggers. You could probably talk him into selling you one of these and then with a 5mm drill bit the rest is pretty easy.


I will see if I can put up a video of this showing auto resetting before and after adding the spacer.
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:35 PM   #195
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

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The line release spring is not a good solution ... I would take it out and simply use a shaft loading protocol that has you nudging the line release back before loading the shaft.

This was actually one of the things on a list I had that could be improved. Auto resetting was especially problematic with the longer DR version. I did spend quite a long time on this and fortunately found a good way to make this work. All the new version of DR trigger will have this, but I am using it on my older triggers as well. I just simply drilled the line release hole from 3mm to 5mm and used a spacer that was 5mm outside diameter with a 3mm center hole and 2.7mm height. The 2.7mm height gives just enough space for the line release to move freely (line release is 2.5mm thick) and you can comfortably tighten the line release screw all the way and line release will work perfectly. The effort needed for auto resetting after the spacer sleeve is identical to the effort needed if you had manually pushed the line release back. I can now auto reset the long DR trigger with a pinkie while before it was almost impossible and you really needed to smash the shaft in for it to auto reset (if it resets). It works almost like magic and just shows that if you spend time on a problem there usually is a good solution. The new DR that will be released soon will have this as well as many little improvements. I know Mario ordered a ton of these spacers to be made and they will be standard on all his new triggers. You could probably talk him into selling you one of these and then with a 5mm drill bit the rest is pretty easy.


I will see if I can put up a video of this showing auto resetting before and after adding the spacer.

Thank you for the feedback, im going to spend quite a bit of time trying to understand the above before I put my mechanism near my drill press. Always get nervous modifying mechanisms. Mistakes can be very costly in regards to safety.

Thanks,

-B
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