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Old 11-04-2016, 04:54 AM   #46
Diving Gecko
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

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[...] I mean, in simple terms, you only get as much power in a shot as you can load the gun with in the first place. More bands on a band gun is one way to "cheat" this equation and stock more energy for that one shot, but this gun doesn't offer this. At least, I don't think it does? Unless, I am getting the function of the double wishbones wrong. Well, maybe I am wrong. Maybe you load one wishbone with all your might and pull the piston halfway up through its travel in the barrel and then you load the other wishbone which pulls the piston the rest of the way? But how would that work when releasing the shot? Would one wishbone not move at all for half the time? I am too tired to think that through...[...]
I think I just saw a pulley wheel on the piston on that last rendering? That would explain how two wishbones could be connected to the same piston and having "reduction gearing" in the loading process?
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Old 11-04-2016, 07:39 AM   #47
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

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Durability may be an issue if those spiral tracks are damaged on the outer drums. Any nick, or dent, inflicted on the alloy grooving ridges will soon chew up (or "derail") the cables which serve as elongated wishbones. Hence the "Dreamair" gun will not like being bashed up on reef structure at the muzzle end, however the earlier concept drawings show protective covers that fit over the outer winding drums, but those slotted covers do not appear to have materialized at this stage.
There is another detail that seems to be problematic to me. Bending radius with respect to the Dyneema OD seems to be too small what might be a significant problem both on anchor point and on the piston side!? That reduces the strength of dyneema. I had similar problem with my early Easy loader where the axle was 8 mm and the dyneema 2 mm. Very soon the dyneema started to tear and finally broke although the force was only about 30 kgf. I solved the problem after using 12 mm axle.
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Old 11-04-2016, 09:26 AM   #48
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

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Originally Posted by Diving Gecko View Post
I think I just saw a pulley wheel on the piston on that last rendering? That would explain how two wishbones could be connected to the same piston and having "reduction gearing" in the loading process?
First post, fourth diagram shows how the cabling system works with the pulley on the piston nose. The preceding diagrams show the pulley, but not the actual version used in the gun as they are patent/concept drawings from when the design was first registered.
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Old 11-04-2016, 09:36 AM   #49
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

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There is another detail that seems to be problematic to me. Bending radius with respect to the Dyneema OD seems to be too small what might be a significant problem both on anchor point and on the piston side!? That reduces the strength of dyneema. I had similar problem with my early Easy loader where the axle was 8 mm and the dyneema 2 mm. Very soon the dyneema started to tear and finally broke although the force was only about 30 kgf. I solved the problem after using 12 mm axle.
It will depend on the actual cable type used, however the gun is made to have the cables replaced periodically as can be seen by how the drums are manufactured in order to make the process relatively foolproof. During the shot the wishbone, or outer cables, are pushed outwards by the spiral track grooves and that will gradually wear out the cables, so they need to be replaced. A figure of about 200 shots was quoted to me when I raised the issue with Andreas when I first contacted him about the prospect of cable wear. I also mentioned this likely cable wear problem on "Deeper Blue". (ref. post #28)
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Old 11-04-2016, 11:26 AM   #50
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

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First things first:
I don't know what thread of jibber jabber and kayaking you are referring to? I think you were a bit fast on the trigger as I am quite sure you are mixing me up with someone else. When it comes to staying off each others threads, I am definitely not staying off your Wedge thread as there is a ton of good info going on over there that airgun aficionados can relate to, too;-). And I am really looking forward to some tests.

Now, on to the rest of your post.
You are being too sensitive;-)
When I replied to your 'Bang post' I had the winky smiley on, I explained that I felt that things have changed, then gave my view on your specific question in regards to how the new gun might sound and then finally, I shared a link for you to view. All that actually took me some decent time to put together. I think that should show you that I think you have every right to ask your questions and I am more than OK with sharing my thoughts. Otherwise, I would of course not have bothered to reply.

The thing I wanted to address was your comment about how all pneumatics make a big bang when fired. I am sure you are right in your observations that your friend's guns were loud. But it doesn't need to be like that at all, so not all airguns are loud as hell per definition - that's what was categorical about your statement:-).
On the same note, some band spearos also think that airguns have to be pumped up after each session. It's an understandable misconception, so it still pops up once in a while. It would be like me saying that Riffe guns shoot like crap not knowing that they have gotten better (have they, actually, haha?).

But as you know, a lot of people don't really do their own research but pick up things here and there online and make it their own truth. Sometimes, what they pick up is actually correct info but sometimes it is not. (For much the same reason, you are setting out to do your own in-depth testing which I applaud).
I, personally, think airguns are very often underestimated and it would be a pity if someone disregarded them completely because they read some outdated notions or misinformation.

Sorry for the derail, back to the airgun in question:-)
I'm sorry - I just felt like y'all were annoyed by my questions - I was / am not suggesting that you actually stay off the other thread- I was just saying that despite my questions being simplistic in nature- my understanding of higher end pop guns IS - in fact - simplistic. So I (and likely others)cannot help but ask questions that are way below your pay grade. I don't mean to annoy you with them- and it seemed like we are.
As far as mixing up people - now I am REALLY mixed up- so i'm just going to make a blanket response for all involved-
I apoogize if I annoyed you - or accusing you of being annoyed- without merit.
I am not annoyed by these threads at all - I just have a hard time understanding these detailed diagrams- so it leads to questions - for the most part - they are so foreign to me that I can't even come up with intelligent questions about them.
I was only suggesting that you guys move these threads into it's own category - IF we /me are annoying you with our simplistic questions.
It appears I mistook your (tongue in cheek response) - as to you really being annoyed with me - which I thought was out of place because I asked a fair question in a respectful manner - and if you read through the thread - you will see others who were quite a bit ruder and dismissive than I was - but got no response- whereas I got a reaction.

Either way - sorry to create drama on the thread. I will read more carefully next time - so as not to put my foot in my mouth again.
Sorry about that guys - carry on.


ok - here is a new (to me) question: why is this an airgun at all? It seems like just a wound up spring - that unwinds upon release.?
Is it - just that - the unwinding springs - use a pocket of air to move the piston ? Still, it seems as if the new technology here is a coiled spring?

Now seriously - I KNOW this has got to be a stupid question - and i'm sorry for it - but you asked for it - and you said you don't mind. And I REALLY want to know because - a wound up spring release - as the power for a shot - was /is an idea I pondered for a minute - a while back - but I assumed that it was too simple for me to have been the first to think of it

oh - and one other thing - the bang question - pop guns - don't POP anymore? they are quieter than they used to be? that's cool - because that was a major drawback to me - at least on paper. One thing to note is - there is a guy who spears the keys commercially - his name is (nickname) is mojarra - and he uses a pop gun to shoot all his fish and he is one of the most lethal spearos there IS - around these parts. And his gun is LOUD! - so it must not matter THAT much anyway. But I gotta wonder if he isn't just SOO good that he could set off grenades underwater and still manage to be sneaky about it.
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Old 11-04-2016, 03:37 PM   #51
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

A compressed air column makes for a much better "spring" as the only friction is from the seals on the sliding piston that moves back and forth. Spring guns which used a long coil spring were popular in the early days (i.e. thirties, forties and fifties), but once pneumatic, or captive air guns stopped leaking air like sieves then the days of the metal coil spring speargun were numbered. This is because the efficiency of energy storage of coil springs is very low, you don't get out what you put in as the coils buckle and rub on the tube they are enclosed in. Also the spring itself absorbs energy which turns into heat and that is lost to propulsion. The spring gun had one big advantage, when you pulled the trigger you knew what you would be getting, unlike pneumatic guns which used to leak as no air pressure, no spring! Band guns back then used very poor rubber, so for a number of years the coil spring gun was top dog in the speargun pecking order. Improvements in rubber seals and band rubber soon toppled the spring gun from its perch.

Pneumatic guns are noisy, being "old skool" I used a Mares "Sten" pneumatic gun for decades and my dive buddy Richard said he could hear me taking a shot whenever he was out on the same reef! He told me that his thoughts at the time were "sounds like Pete has bagged another one". Being a pretty good shot as I had put hundreds of shots, if not thousands through it, that was generally the case.

Things changed when about twenty years ago the vacuum barrel version of the pneumatic speargun arrived. As the gun no longer needed to push water out through muzzle relief ports those ports could be eliminated. Also metal pistons and shock absorber anvils had been replaced decades earlier with plastic versions which were not quite as noisy as the metal versions. Pneumatic spearguns also began to concentrate on efficiency, thus gun inner barrels were sized for the job, a 11 mm diameter inner barrel being used for slimmer spears such as 6.5 mm and 7 mm. If you wanted to shoot 8 mm shafts (close to 5/16”) then you had to stay with the 13 mm inner barrels which had been the industry standard. The forces being less when the piston collided with the shock absorber anvil in an 11 mm diameter inner barrel gun they tended to be less noisy, and the deletion of muzzle ports with a vacuum muzzle fitted further muffled the noise coming out of the gun.

Last edited by popgun pete; 11-04-2016 at 04:22 PM. Reason: further comment
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Old 11-04-2016, 04:32 PM   #52
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

Pneumatic spearguns are all about efficiency. They are the most efficient of underwater weapons loaded with the user’s muscle power. However efficiency is not everything, you need effectiveness as well, hence the multi-band rubber gun, which is not very efficient, is good for hurling larger diameter and/or longer length missiles at tough body structures and causing a lot of internal damage or which will gain a hold while the fish succumbs to its exertions or the arrival of further missiles sent by the hunter or his associates armed with similar weapons.

Depending on the hunting situation, and the nature of the prey, I use whatever gun is most likely to give me a result, so I have a bunch of band guns as well as pneumatic guns. If you use too many different guns then you never get your "eye in" with all of them, but familiarity with a few favorite guns then they are almost on "auto-shoot" as the gun will, in a sense, fire itself when a "firing solution" presents itself, in other words a deja vu shot.

Basically the "Dreamair" gun is trying to be like an "Arbalete", but using "air spring" power rather than rubber band power. Using "air spring" or pneumatic power will improve the efficiency as there is no "band soak" as you have with rubber bands, but on the minus side there are a lot more items to move with that power (axles and drums to spin, long cables to wind and unwind, resistance to sliding of a large moving piston) and they will all remove energy that would otherwise be available for spear propulsion. The big question is do the pluses outweigh the minuses, or vice versa? My thoughts are that it will be ahead rather than behind on the criterion of operating efficiency with respect to its energy use, but that may be at the cost of increased unreliability. In order to minimize that happening a lot of effort is going into the cable drive transmission system as the components that we have seen so far must be some of the most expensive to manufacture items ever to go into a speargun. Hence the "Dreamair" speargun is trying to beat the odds by going the quad cam, 24 cylinder, twin V-block configuration route rather than using a simple pushrod V8.

Last edited by popgun pete; 11-05-2016 at 03:44 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 11-08-2016, 03:16 PM   #53
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

I have been told by inventor Andreas that revisions are being made to what will be the production version of the "Dreamair" speargun as a result of the previous testing experience. An extra valve was suggested at the rear of the gun for the reasons shown on the attached diagrams, but there may be other tweaks to the design as well.

Update: Apparently the valve is already in the rear bulkhead, mounted below the shock absorbing column as can be seen in this new composite image photo.
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Last edited by popgun pete; 11-09-2016 at 04:09 PM. Reason: update and adding new photos
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Old 11-18-2016, 02:48 PM   #54
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

Here is the loading device for "arming" the cable wishbone drive. Another variation of the loading device has a pulley attachment (which will be shown next) in order to create a mechanical advantage as you summon your strength to haul the wishbone(s) back to engage the shaft.
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Old 11-19-2016, 07:13 PM   #55
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

The connection of the barrel (actually the tank) sliding piston to the inner drive cable is shown here.
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Old 11-22-2016, 04:01 PM   #56
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

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As for price, well who knows, but in a world where you and I may aspire to a Shelby Cobra or a Dodge Viper, there are many people out there who can splash out on a Bugatti Veyron or a McLaren F1 (or whatever their top model is now), so a speargun of a similar ilk will be no big deal for them. I know some collectors can barely wait to buy one, as long as the “Dreamair” gun works of course. Sixty years ago they would be buying the Rebikoff guns with their ratchet advancing handles, they cost a mint, as did those Hurricane “Carabine” dry spring guns I wrote about here.
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Maybe a more appropriate "increased utility" vehicle than either the Veyron or the McLaren for the "well-heeled" spearfisherman.
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Old 11-27-2016, 03:18 PM   #57
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

A special multi-purpose tool has been created for routinely servicing the "Dreamair" speargun and is shown here. It should not take up too much room in the Lambo's toolbox.
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Last edited by popgun pete; 11-27-2016 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 12-10-2016, 09:08 PM   #58
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

Pumping up the "Dreamair" using the special hand pump supplied with the gun which screws into the small inlet port located under the muzzle.
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Old 12-18-2016, 03:38 PM   #59
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

Good photos.
Do you know where I can find video of the gun shooting. And possibly when it will be for sale?
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Old 12-18-2016, 05:46 PM   #60
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

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Good photos.
Do you know where I can find video of the gun shooting. And possibly when it will be for sale?
That is the "64 Million Dollar question", as they used to say, or at least I think it was 64. No one knows, but an indication was given by the inventor that a video of some sort would be available by Christmas. I expect that the "Dreamair" speargun needed some modifications after the testing revealed a few potential problems and that has thrown their schedules out. I check each day for any news, but nothing is showing up at the moment, although the Australian Patent for the design has been granted as of a couple of days ago.
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Last edited by popgun pete; 12-18-2016 at 05:49 PM. Reason: adding patent front page
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