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Old 10-28-2017, 07:32 AM   #16
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Quote:
Originally Posted by danvolker View Post
My answer is that if catch and release MEANS catch and kill, then it needs to be banned...However, the normal fishing gear a party boat like the SeaMist would have for it's fisherman charters, will not typically bring up a Goliath I don't think---the line breaks. In past years, someone on the Sea Mist would catch a Goliath, a short fight would ensue, and it would break the line with little injury. Now things are different, because the boats can SELL THE BIG FIGHT...So they have big game gear for the fisherman that want it. This needs to be illegal over the aggregation sites from Jupiter to the Castor.

And as to eating them, I think most on Spearboard already are well educated on the mercury issue, but here is something Chris Malinowski put together for us after I told him how many fisherman were denying that they could not eat Goliath--that it was any worse than the fish they were already eating.... See http://iambroadband.com/images/CR%20...esentation.pdf

It basically says, yes, just eating one Goliath Grouper steak is very, very bad for you. The mercury levels at 4 times higher than the highest other fish, pass a critical threshold for toxicity that your body can not deal with. This is true of the large Goliaths--the trophy fish, and it is NOT true of the baby goliaths, under 18 inches long--the only ones that Malinowski or Koenig would consider allowable for harvest ( slot size).( P.S. Chris had a phone conversation with me on the slot size he would agree to, and it was only for juveniles that were quite small...I do not remember if it was 18 or 16, or just near this...it was a fairly narrow range, and it was very small compared to what we see on the wrecks...If someone wants the exact range of this Koenig was recommending to the FWC, let me know and I will call him for this.)
I personally dont have much knowledge on the mercury matter, so if I say something wrong please correct me. Also all of my ug/g numbers will be the muscle mean.

Mercury is something to be avoided as much as possible, however I would say these numbers are slightly exaggerated. We all know people have been eating sharks and Goliath groupers (before the ban) without much problems. Yes they shouldn't be eaten 24/7, but once a lifetime is fine. Goliath groupers also dont have 4x the mercury of any other fish... Even in that very study the black grouper has a mercury level of 0.91 compared to the Goliath 1.51, only making it a 40% increase, or 2x. And black groupers are heavily eaten with no concern.

Many shark species such as the Atlantic sharpnose, bull, lemon, have a mercury level from 1ug/g to 1.3ug/g, similar to the Goliath grouper.
With the blacktip having a mercury level close to 4ug/g. Although we all know certain sharks are dangerous to eat, agian people have eaten them and have posed no problems, especially to those who have only eaten it a few times.
http://cufer.rsmas.miami.edu/wordpre...6_report-1.pdf

Also I question your study validity in general. Most studies show the Goliath grouper of having a mercury level around 0.6ug/g - 0.8ug/g
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23830062
(page 4) http://www.int-res.com/articles/esr2009/7/n007p249.pdf
http://www.alertdiver.com/High_on_Mercury

Then you have this study which is by a environmentalist group claiming mercury levels of over 1.9ug/g, however their study is obviously biased, their subject size is very small, and overall is a very questionable study.
http://www.planetexperts.com/mercury...ery-potential/

So this mercury hype seems to be simply fear mongering by the divers who love to kiss Goliath groupers. Otherwise compared to many other fish they are relatively average.
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Old 10-28-2017, 09:34 AM   #17
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Ok so Dan wants not only no culling, but a total ban on recreational (catch and release) fishing for this species in our local area. Hardly enforceable if you continue to allow shark fishing and it might be difficult to define exactly what gear is allowable, but it is helpful to understand his perspective.

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Old 10-28-2017, 01:24 PM   #18
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Is mercury in fish really a problem?
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Old 10-30-2017, 06:43 AM   #19
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
If it is I would be in big trouble or I would am a human thermometer since I have probably eaten ten thousand pounds of tuna in my life that is apparently LOADED with mercury.
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Old 10-30-2017, 07:46 AM   #20
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

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Originally Posted by riplipper View Post
If it is I would be in big trouble or I would am a human thermometer since I have probably eaten ten thousand pounds of tuna in my life that is apparently LOADED with mercury.
^^^
Exactly, they are very dangerous developmental health effects for children and women (pregnancy). But otherwise for most of us adult males I dont see any serious issues with small to medium amounts, aka why I think its a over hyped problem by PETA to stop people eating dolphin, sharks, Goliath grouper, etc.

The only problem is in very very high doses which leads to minamata disease, however the people it was first reported on ate fish from VERY heavily polluted waters RIGHT off a factory dumping heavily toxic waste.

So I think a jewfish or two wont hurt anyone other then children and women who plan to be pregnant.

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Old 10-30-2017, 07:50 AM   #21
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

https://www.pca.state.mn.us/quick-li...ffects-mercury

"The EPA also concluded that most Americans are not at risk from mercury exposure. Therefore, most people can continue to look to fish as a healthy, low-fat source of protein and other nutrients. However, pregnant women, women who may become pregnant within the next several years, children less than six years old and people who consume unusually large quantities of freshwater sport fish, shark, or swordfish, may be harmed by mercury."

AKA This is overhyped bullshit by PETA
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Old 10-30-2017, 09:35 AM   #22
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

[quote=rowow;2155489]^^^
Exactly, there are very dangerous developmental health effects for children
QUOTE]


Well there ya go. That explains all my issues. Guess the EPA was right for a change.

And PETA is complete bullshit.
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Old 11-04-2017, 02:46 PM   #23
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Hello,

You are receiving this email because you have either attended a goliath grouper workshop or submitted public comment on goliath grouper management. We wanted to inform you of a date change for when the stakeholder input will be presented to the FWC Commissioners.

The workshop presentation and online information stated that FWC staff would bring an update on goliath grouper stakeholder input to the Commission at their December meeting in Gainesville. However, due to the impacts of Hurricane Irma, the September Commission meeting was canceled, and as a result, many items were rescheduled and shifted on the December agenda. The goliath grouper update presentation is now anticipated to come to the FWC Commission meeting on Feb. 7 and 8, 2018 in Tallahassee, FL.

Thank you for your input on goliath grouper management in Florida state waters.

Please let us know if you have any additional questions by emailing them to Marine@MyFWC.com.

Sincerely,

Jessica McCawley
Director of Division of Marine Fisheries Management
Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission
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Old 11-04-2017, 03:38 PM   #24
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Question Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Quote:
Originally Posted by rowow View Post
^^^
Exactly, they are very dangerous developmental health effects for children and women (pregnancy). But otherwise for most of us adult males I dont see any serious issues with small to medium amounts, aka why I think its a over hyped problem by PETA to stop people eating dolphin, sharks, Goliath grouper, etc.

The only problem is in very very high doses which leads to minamata disease, however the people it was first reported on ate fish from VERY heavily polluted waters RIGHT off a factory dumping heavily toxic waste.

So I think a jewfish or two wont hurt anyone other then children and women who plan to be pregnant.
rowow,

Stop the PETA BS. The subject of Mercury in fish is a serious issue that has nothing to do with PETA. Many scientists have been honestly assessing mercury levels in fish for the health and welfare of the human populations for many years with no "Ethical Treatment of Animals" agenda as you insinuate.

What we really should do is look at the data that has been presented in a logical way. Dan put up a link above to some of that mercury data as follows:


http://iambroadband.com/images/CR%20...esentation.pdf


I downloaded that PDF and re-attached it to this post. I then took two of the slides below and marked them up.

Sure, the sample size is not huge because the collection of the data is still underway. But, let's look at what is here. I circled the individual goliaths with mercury levels over 2 parts Per Million PPM which appears to be 6 males and 1 female.

I then looked at the data comparing Goliaths to Black Grouper and circled the mean numbers versus the maximum numbers. Look at the large differential between minimum and maximum for goliaths instead of concentrating on the Mean numbers which are averages.








Now, let me ask a few pointed questions as follows:

What if there are many male goliaths out there with mercury levels greater than 4PPM?

Can you tell the difference between a male and female goliath you would catch under any allowed take and want to eat?

Would you feel confident in sharing possibly high mercury goliath fillets (of which you will have many) with your male friends, your non-pregnant wife or lady friends based on this mercury data which is still a work in progress?

Just wondering, Tony
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Last edited by SpearMax; 11-04-2017 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 11-04-2017, 05:22 PM   #25
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

1: The reason I stated peta BS is because most studies that show higher then average mercury levels just coincidentally happen to be supported by PETA and other anti hunter/fish huggers. Because of this we can eliminate all studies which have a bias or association with PETA.

2: The study you quote (Chris Malinowski) is very distinct compared to most other studies that are not biased. Most other studies show Goliath grouper having a mercury level below 1ug/g (see post #16, 3 other studies)
This can be due to a small sample size as you yourself stated and therefore a accidental chance. And that is one of my points is that the mercury levels are realistically far lower ON AVERAGE then what that study showed.

3: Would I be ok with eating levels higher then 4ug/g? Obviously not. However what are the chances of that happening and what can I do to lower it? Many fish from marlin to tuna also have mercury levels higher then 4 or even 5ug/g.
This one study found mercury levels of over 28ug/g in commercially sold marlin jerky!!!
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3206828/

As for lowering your chances, obviously eating smaller Goliath grouper would be the clear choice, and where is another. Many fish have a far lower mercury level in the Atlantic ocean vs the gulf of mexico.
https://www.epa.gov/fish-tech/epa-fd...al-information
(look at the tile fish)

So if you do not want to not eat Goliath groupers for the very small chance of high mercury then go ahead. However you should avoid most other fish such as tuna, tile fish, marlin, etc as Goliath grouper isn't the only one with the chance of such high mercury levels. But I dont see any all out ban or problems with eating those fish.

4. Then we get to the second topic, what actual affects does mercury have on the adult male body? As stated BY THE EPA mercury has little to no effect other then developmental growth or those with a very high concentration. Similar to Zika and many other diseases/toxins.
This means if you are not a child, or a women or is planning to be pregnant then you would be fine eating a high mercury concentrated fish once in your life. Otherwise I have not found any cases of someone getting minamata disease from 1 marlin or Goliath grouper...



On another note I was having trouble in finding a plot graph or a specific high/low for various fish such as tile/marlin/tuna. The best thing I could find was that jerky study. So if you are able to find any more studies I would be glad to see them.
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Old 11-04-2017, 09:44 PM   #26
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Based on a cursory review of the published data, black grouper are higher than GG in muscle tissue HG content.

So the new data seems important.

The presentation is based on unpublished reports from the FSU Team. yes?

This paper published in 2013 shows a GG mean of much less, 0f 0.63 which involved 56 GG samples -

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23830062

The new unpublished data is much higher than the previously published data, i wonder if it is related to a difference in size of the fish? Still the latest, unpublished data is double that found in the published study.

The slide presentation appears to reference Tremain and Adams 2012 as the source for black grouper Hg content having a mean value of just 0.91. However, this abstract from Tremain 2012 (see below) , clear states that the mean value for Black grouper is OVER 1.0. Maybe the prior research 10 years earlier had lower values? Not sure I understand?

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...87.2012.683232


The unpublished data provides Hg content versus size along with regression lines. Extrapolation of this data downward to smaller size GG, would provide an estimate for the MAXIMUM SAFE SIZE GG to consume with respect to Hg content.

What is this safe size? The unpublished data can provide an estimate. Providing this estimate seems like the responsible thing to do. If we know a government agency is considering the harvest of this species (and we can assume it will be used for human consumption) ... then why haven't the researchers provides their best estimate on the safe size to eat/harvest in the presentation?

Dan V. has indicated that he thinks the size is around 18 inches, but I would think this estimate would be an important aspect of the research and is very relevant to the purported intent of the paper.

Last edited by jfjf; 11-04-2017 at 10:04 PM.
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Old 11-05-2017, 07:21 AM   #27
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Rowow....Chris sent me some more information to post to this group, but I need to go over it more and make the post useful for non-scientists...so later today :-) For now, it is important that you know that neither Malinowski or Koenig, have relationships or interests in PETA...and that I consider the PETA people complete wackjpbs, along with the Vegan mafia types that love to quote their cr*p. I Speared heavily in the late 70's, 80's and 90's, which indluded a time when their were as many Grey Groupers on the bottom as there are grunts now...I preferred Hog snappers, and used to get 3 or more every time I went out, and no one was better at finding us optimal hunting spots than Frank Hammett, who I dived with pretty much every week for close to 20 years. Point being....you are not getting this data from Peta types....And I hope you understand that Tony Grogan is not a PETA type either... My motivation is that many of us, myself included, have been lucky enough to experience this ocean while it was healthy, and be blown away by the marine life....this was something like seeing the Grand Canyon, or Niagra Falls, and knowing you need to share this with your friends...if not all the rest of mankind, for the marvel it represents.
But, it is even more than that, because this wonder area off of Palm Beach, was alive, and amazing, and it was and is, intimately tied to the future health of millions of people. It was not obvious to me in the 80s or even most of the 90's that something was wrong with this obviously inexhaustible food supply, and recreational wonderland...but by the end of the 90's there was a stark contrast forming---the big grey groupers that used to migrate past the Hole in the Wall each year after the first freeze in the Carolinas---that had been doing this for millions of years--this was no longer happening. There were almost no greys all of a sudden. It was kind of a shock. And the hog snappers were becoming scarce, only the tiny fish stick sized ones left, which of course, some divers would still happily shoot, cause if you shoot enough of them, you would still have an awesome dinner! And then the whole look of "which" fish were making up the schools along the bottoms was changing...becoming more of the junk fish we barely even noticed before--the fish no one wanted to shoot or catch.

The really big fish, like the Goliaths, or Warsaw Groupers, were only found on really deep wrecks---in the 90's I started diving with George Irvine (WKPP) to dive all the deep wrecks, reefs and pinnacles from Fort Pierce to North Miami, so that I could go spearfishing for the really big fish--it was more fun. On the 250 foot deep, to 295 foot deep stuff we were doing, I would be able to shoot as many 20 pound grey groupers as I wanted, or to shoot an occasional warsaw ( which were so wormy that you shoot one or 2, and then really you don't want another)...Goliaths were so rare from the 80's on, the first time I saw one since 1980, was in 1995, on the RB Johnson/CoryN chris--there was a huge one hanging out in the cave like passageway under and between the two ships. I could have shot him, but even narced out of my mind, I realized this species was almost extinct, and that I should not shoot it. Like seeing the last Rhino, or the last Woolly Mammoth.

Since 2007, I have been trying to help the dive charters of Palm Beach County, and the Hotels, work with the Palm Beach County film Commission, as well as the Tourist Development Agency and CVB, to get divers from all over the world, to travel to Palm Beach to dive...we are better than the keys ( we think so :-) and many divers do) and we are better than Cayman or Cozumel, and most other Caribbean destinations. Divers began coming, and spend big money in Palm Beach. They stay in hotels ranging from our $100 per night places like Best Western, to the pricey ones like the Marriott Resort on Singer Island, where they can easily spend $500 per day, for a 4 or 5 day trip--plus the hundreds to the diving charter boat, and other restaurants they visit....Divers INFUSE a much needed ECONOMIC IMPACT into Palm beach county, especially in the summer and fall, when Palm beach hotels are the most empty, and the tourism revenue of the county would otherwise be at it's lowest.

Today, we are talking about ECOTOURISM AND THE GOLIATHS...We are the ONE PLACE IN THE WORLD that divers from all over the world can visit, to dive with hundreds of monster goliaths, from September to October during the aggregation ( the months county tourism needs the most help).

And tourists from all over the world ARE COMING to see them....this was "hosed" this year by the hurricane, but we would have had many thousands of divers here from far away, spending many millions of dollars. So the people of Palm Beach county not only lost money to damage from the storm, but they were also damaged by lost Goliath diving revenue.

Next year we hope to have good weather for this, and to have tens of millions of dollars infused into the Palm Beach economy by the Goliath diving of tourists. The FWC, as an ignorant, politically motivated group of bureaucrats, is bowing to the will of fisherman that see goliaths as both nuisance and as big game trophies....and they are putting a value on each fish of perhaps a few hundred dollars....the morons in government, that think that the tens of millions in ecotourism revenue, does not outweigh the petty revenue of the proposed GG Harvest, should be fired and forced to work for a living.

I brought you the Mercury issue in my first post here on Goliaths, because that is the best reason why we should not have a "harvest" - because with a harvest, people will eat fish they should not. This is not biased data, in fact, the FWC has no one they can raise above the data of Malinowsky and Koenig -they do not have alternative data they would try to use to succeed in their harvest attempt...what they would do instead, is just ignore the science, and that is what they are now trying to do. The culling they are calling for, and naming a harvest, will cost ALL of us far more, than the simple pleasure it will bring to a few.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rowow View Post
1: The reason I stated peta BS is because most studies that show higher then average mercury levels just coincidentally happen to be supported by PETA and other anti hunter/fish huggers. Because of this we can eliminate all studies which have a bias or association with PETA.

2: The study you quote (Chris Malinowski) is very distinct compared to most other studies that are not biased. Most other studies show Goliath grouper having a mercury level below 1ug/g (see post #16, 3 other studies)
This can be due to a small sample size as you yourself stated and therefore a accidental chance. And that is one of my points is that the mercury levels are realistically far lower ON AVERAGE then what that study showed.

3: Would I be ok with eating levels higher then 4ug/g? Obviously not. However what are the chances of that happening and what can I do to lower it? Many fish from marlin to tuna also have mercury levels higher then 4 or even 5ug/g.
This one study found mercury levels of over 28ug/g in commercially sold marlin jerky!!!
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3206828/

As for lowering your chances, obviously eating smaller Goliath grouper would be the clear choice, and where is another. Many fish have a far lower mercury level in the Atlantic ocean vs the gulf of mexico.
https://www.epa.gov/fish-tech/epa-fd...al-information
(look at the tile fish)

So if you do not want to not eat Goliath groupers for the very small chance of high mercury then go ahead. However you should avoid most other fish such as tuna, tile fish, marlin, etc as Goliath grouper isn't the only one with the chance of such high mercury levels. But I dont see any all out ban or problems with eating those fish.

4. Then we get to the second topic, what actual affects does mercury have on the adult male body? As stated BY THE EPA mercury has little to no effect other then developmental growth or those with a very high concentration. Similar to Zika and many other diseases/toxins.
This means if you are not a child, or a women or is planning to be pregnant then you would be fine eating a high mercury concentrated fish once in your life. Otherwise I have not found any cases of someone getting minamata disease from 1 marlin or Goliath grouper...



On another note I was having trouble in finding a plot graph or a specific high/low for various fish such as tile/marlin/tuna. The best thing I could find was that jerky study. So if you are able to find any more studies I would be glad to see them.
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Old 11-05-2017, 08:00 AM   #28
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Quote:
Originally Posted by danvolker View Post
Rowow....Chris sent me some more information to post to this group, but I need to go over it more and make the post useful for non-scientists...so later today :-) For now, it is important that you know that neither Malinowski or Koenig, have relationships or interests in PETA...and that I consider the PETA people complete wackjpbs, along with the Vegan mafia types that love to quote their cr*p. I Speared heavily in the late 70's, 80's and 90's, which indluded a time when their were as many Grey Groupers on the bottom as there are grunts now...I preferred Hog snappers, and used to get 3 or more every time I went out, and no one was better at finding us optimal hunting spots than Frank Hammett, who I dived with pretty much every week for close to 20 years. Point being....you are not getting this data from Peta types....And I hope you understand that Tony Grogan is not a PETA type either... My motivation is that many of us, myself included, have been lucky enough to experience this ocean while it was healthy, and be blown away by the marine life....this was something like seeing the Grand Canyon, or Niagra Falls, and knowing you need to share this with your friends...if not all the rest of mankind, for the marvel it represents.
But, it is even more than that, because this wonder area off of Palm Beach, was alive, and amazing, and it was and is, intimately tied to the future health of millions of people. It was not obvious to me in the 80s or even most of the 90's that something was wrong with this obviously inexhaustible food supply, and recreational wonderland...but by the end of the 90's there was a stark contrast forming---the big grey groupers that used to migrate past the Hole in the Wall each year after the first freeze in the Carolinas---that had been doing this for millions of years--this was no longer happening. There were almost no greys all of a sudden. It was kind of a shock. And the hog snappers were becoming scarce, only the tiny fish stick sized ones left, which of course, some divers would still happily shoot, cause if you shoot enough of them, you would still have an awesome dinner! And then the whole look of "which" fish were making up the schools along the bottoms was changing...becoming more of the junk fish we barely even noticed before--the fish no one wanted to shoot or catch.

The really big fish, like the Goliaths, or Warsaw Groupers, were only found on really deep wrecks---in the 90's I started diving with George Irvine (WKPP) to dive all the deep wrecks, reefs and pinnacles from Fort Pierce to North Miami, so that I could go spearfishing for the really big fish--it was more fun. On the 250 foot deep, to 295 foot deep stuff we were doing, I would be able to shoot as many 20 pound grey groupers as I wanted, or to shoot an occasional warsaw ( which were so wormy that you shoot one or 2, and then really you don't want another)...Goliaths were so rare from the 80's on, the first time I saw one since 1980, was in 1995, on the RB Johnson/CoryN chris--there was a huge one hanging out in the cave like passageway under and between the two ships. I could have shot him, but even narced out of my mind, I realized this species was almost extinct, and that I should not shoot it. Like seeing the last Rhino, or the last Woolly Mammoth.

Since 2007, I have been trying to help the dive charters of Palm Beach County, and the Hotels, work with the Palm Beach County film Commission, as well as the Tourist Development Agency and CVB, to get divers from all over the world, to travel to Palm Beach to dive...we are better than the keys ( we think so :-) and many divers do) and we are better than Cayman or Cozumel, and most other Caribbean destinations. Divers began coming, and spend big money in Palm Beach. They stay in hotels ranging from our $100 per night places like Best Western, to the pricey ones like the Marriott Resort on Singer Island, where they can easily spend $500 per day, for a 4 or 5 day trip--plus the hundreds to the diving charter boat, and other restaurants they visit....Divers INFUSE a much needed ECONOMIC IMPACT into Palm beach county, especially in the summer and fall, when Palm beach hotels are the most empty, and the tourism revenue of the county would otherwise be at it's lowest.

Today, we are talking about ECOTOURISM AND THE GOLIATHS...We are the ONE PLACE IN THE WORLD that divers from all over the world can visit, to dive with hundreds of monster goliaths, from September to October during the aggregation ( the months county tourism needs the most help).

And tourists from all over the world ARE COMING to see them....this was "hosed" this year by the hurricane, but we would have had many thousands of divers here from far away, spending many millions of dollars. So the people of Palm Beach county not only lost money to damage from the storm, but they were also damaged by lost Goliath diving revenue.

Next year we hope to have good weather for this, and to have tens of millions of dollars infused into the Palm Beach economy by the Goliath diving of tourists. The FWC, as an ignorant, politically motivated group of bureaucrats, is bowing to the will of fisherman that see goliaths as both nuisance and as big game trophies....and they are putting a value on each fish of perhaps a few hundred dollars....the morons in government, that think that the tens of millions in ecotourism revenue, does not outweigh the petty revenue of the proposed GG Harvest, should be fired and forced to work for a living.

I brought you the Mercury issue in my first post here on Goliaths, because that is the best reason why we should not have a "harvest" - because with a harvest, people will eat fish they should not. This is not biased data, in fact, the FWC has no one they can raise above the data of Malinowsky and Koenig -they do not have alternative data they would try to use to succeed in their harvest attempt...what they would do instead, is just ignore the science, and that is what they are now trying to do. The culling they are calling for, and naming a harvest, will cost ALL of us far more, than the simple pleasure it will bring to a few.
1. I never called Malinowski a peta nutjob... However I did say his study seems to be a outlier since most other studies show levels below 1ug/g. This can be due to his small sample size or whatever, but I never called him a peta nutjob.
Really getting annoyed with people in this forum putting stuff in my mouth...

2. The entire reason I mentioned the peta crap in the first place was after some further research I noticed two groups of studies, one that had levels below 1ug/g, and another that had levels above 2ug/g. And after even further research I learned that all of the studies with 2ug/g or more were related to PETA or another environmental group whos objective is stop all hunting in general. Due to this I was unable to find 1 published source with numbers above 1ug/g and due to that I made the statement that the mecury problem seems to be hyped by PETA as plenty of other fish have far higher mercury levels yet are eaten, something jfjf also stated and showed.

And this is something you clearly are doing too. Which I understand you were blinded by PETA and their false data, however thats why I am calling it out on what it is.

3. And should we impose limits and regulations? YES! I fully support you in that. However Goliath groupers are no longer endangered in Florida (at least thats what we are here arguing and researching about) and are a problem as due to their protective status they out compete with most species and will gladly steal fish as they have no threat from humans. Which is EXACTLY whats happening (you yourself stated) with the junk fish (fish that people cant or wont shoot/fish) are taking over. However regulations and limits is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from a outright ban, something we have currently.

(also the junk fish thing is a myth too, alot of "junk fish" are in fact VERY tasty, youtube junk fish taste test if you wanna see)

4. The entire point of regulations is to keep numbers in control. I am not advocating for a extermination of the species and I am sure no one else here is either, so calm down about that. All I am asking to do is keep the numbers under control like we have to do with bears or deer in many areas. Bears and deers still exist alongside tourism, however there is simply less of them in certain areas. You will still have your fish huggers throwing down money, however if you want to talk about money then the damage these fish cause to fisherman and spearos is FAR greater (although there should be a study about that since you complain about it so much).

I can also use your job's and money argument for fishermen who catch Goliath groupers. This is a very popular sport and business yet you advocated for a outright ban on targeting the species putting the business at risk.

Then after all that you call out the FWC in being ignorant in listening to the businesses yet use business as part of your argument??? Do you not see the hypocrisy???

5. And this is my problem with you, read this VERY carefully as what you are doing is very wrong. All of your arguments thus far have been fear mongering and emotionally based. Mercury levels, losing money and jobs, these are all statements which are solely based off fear and have no factual backing. This is the same tactics the left uses against guns, and what peta uses against hunting of various other species.
What hit me hard with this peta crap was when I remembered that peta uses the mercury arguments for any fish or animal they want to protect. Whales, dolphin, grouper, etc. Time and time agian I have noticed a pattern, and that is fear mongering based of irrational and hypocritical reasoning.

I am NOT ignoring the science and in fact doing the very opposite. I have cited 3 published sources that demonstrate levels below 1ug/g, which is below black groupers and many other edible fish species. You only provided 1 UNPUBLISHED source with a small sample size...

Thus far you are not able to refute my argument that 1: Mercury levels in Goliath groupers are far lower then what that one study showed, and in fact are far lower then most other edible species, and 2: Mercury levels in adult males have no effects except in very high concentrations.
Instead you resorted to another fear mongering tactic, "they tek er joobs". I am very disappointed.





Also thanks jfjf for mentioning the published vs unpublished sources. I didnt even think of that for some reason.
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Old 11-05-2017, 12:26 PM   #29
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Question Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
Based on a cursory review of the published data, black grouper are higher than GG in muscle tissue HG content.

So the new data seems important.

The presentation is based on unpublished reports from the FSU Team. yes?

This paper published in 2013 shows a GG mean of much less, 0f 0.63 which involved 56 GG samples -

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23830062

The new unpublished data is much higher than the previously published data, i wonder if it is related to a difference in size of the fish? Still the latest, unpublished data is double that found in the published study.

The slide presentation appears to reference Tremain and Adams 2012 as the source for black grouper Hg content having a mean value of just 0.91. However, this abstract from Tremain 2012 (see below) , clear states that the mean value for Black grouper is OVER 1.0. Maybe the prior research 10 years earlier had lower values? Not sure I understand?

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...87.2012.683232


The unpublished data provides Hg content versus size along with regression lines. Extrapolation of this data downward to smaller size GG, would provide an estimate for the MAXIMUM SAFE SIZE GG to consume with respect to Hg content.

What is this safe size? The unpublished data can provide an estimate. Providing this estimate seems like the responsible thing to do. If we know a government agency is considering the harvest of this species (and we can assume it will be used for human consumption) ... then why haven't the researchers provides their best estimate on the safe size to eat/harvest in the presentation?

Dan V. has indicated that he thinks the size is around 18 inches, but I would think this estimate would be an important aspect of the research and is very relevant to the purported intent of the paper.
Jim,were you able to download the actual paper you linked above? All I could get was the abstract as follows below. The reason I ask is to see the maximum and minimum data for each individual instead of just the mean numbers. Do you agree more data on goliath mercury levels needs to be collected and published subject to peer review? Tony

Quote:
Mercury and histopathology of the vulnerable goliath grouper, Epinephelus itajara, in U.S. waters: a multi-tissue approach.

Adams DH1, Sonne C.
Author information
Abstract
Goliath grouper have undergone significant global population declines with potential biological extinction for some subpopulations. Although overfishing and habitat loss are important drivers of these declines, the negative effects of contaminants may also play a role. The life history patterns of goliath grouper may make this species especially prone to exposure to contaminants and may exacerbate bioaccumulation of toxic substances, including mercury, which has documented detrimental health effects. Therefore, we analyzed mercury (in muscle, liver, kidney, gonad, and brain tissue) and the histology of key organs (liver, kidney and gill tissue) in 56 goliath groupers from U.S. waters. Total mercury concentration was greatest in liver tissue, followed by kidney, muscle, gonad, and brain. Maximum mercury concentration ranged from 22.68 μg/g in liver tissue to 0.89 μg/g in brain tissue. Mean mercury concentration ranged from 2.87 μg/g in liver tissue to 0.37 μg/g in brain tissue with a mean of 0.63 μg/g in muscle. Mean mercury concentrations observed in goliath grouper from U.S. waters were within the range known to cause direct health effects in fish after long-term exposure. The lesions and histological changes observed in the liver, kidney, and gills of goliath groupers were similar to those found in other fish following laboratory mercury-exposure trials and to those found in mercury-contaminated fish in wild populations carrying similar or even lower concentrations. We suggest that exposure to mercury and other environmental influences such as pathogens and reduced temperatures could be co-factors in the histological effects or anomalies observed in the present study, and resulting stresses may be involved in the observed population declines in the species.
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Old 11-05-2017, 01:13 PM   #30
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Arrow Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Quote:
Originally Posted by rowow View Post
1. I never called Malinowski a peta nutjob... However I did say his study seems to be a outlier since most other studies show levels below 1ug/g. This can be due to his small sample size or whatever, but I never called him a peta nutjob.
Really getting annoyed with people in this forum putting stuff in my mouth...

2. The entire reason I mentioned the peta crap in the first place was after some further research I noticed two groups of studies, one that had levels below 1ug/g, and another that had levels above 2ug/g. And after even further research I learned that all of the studies with 2ug/g or more were related to PETA or another environmental group whos objective is stop all hunting in general. Due to this I was unable to find 1 published source with numbers above 1ug/g and due to that I made the statement that the mecury problem seems to be hyped by PETA as plenty of other fish have far higher mercury levels yet are eaten, something jfjf also stated and showed.

And this is something you clearly are doing too. Which I understand you were blinded by PETA and their false data, however thats why I am calling it out on what it is.
rowow, you seem to be stuck on your PETA Association Argument.

Let's analyze what you are doing by constantly bring up PETA.

You are using a logical fallacy called "Guilt by Association" which is a form of "argumentum ad hominem."

Argumentum ad hominem is an argumentative strategy whereby an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. Guilt by association can sometimes also be a type of ad hominem fallacy if the argument attacks a source because of the similarity between the views of someone making an argument and other proponents of the argument.

This form of the argument is as follows:

Source S makes claim C.

Group G, which is currently viewed negatively by the recipient, also makes claim C.

Therefore, source S is viewed by the recipient of the claim as associated to the group G and inherits how negatively viewed it is.

In your case, FSU Marine Lab scientist publishes Mercury in fish data indicating high levels in goliath grouper.

PETA uses high levels in goliath grouper as a reason to avoid human consumption.

Therefore, FSU Marine Lab scientist is bad because negatively viewed PETA likes the scientific data.

FYI, Tony

Last edited by SpearMax; 11-05-2017 at 01:32 PM.
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