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Diving Safety, Accidents and Incidents Post here to discuss accidents, incidents, ideas, gear, or anything else to improve spearfishing safety. Memorials and condolences threads should be placed in that separate forum.

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Old 11-14-2010, 07:15 PM   #31
Behslayer
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Re: SWB Enough is Enough

Hmm. Zeagle keeps coming up here..

It's important to note that TMaas has really gone thorugh all of this and developed a system that works, which addresses all of the potential issues. The ideal would be for this system to become more streamlined, smaller, and less expensive. I've seen the Freedive Recovery Vest. Terry has developed solutions to the signal becoming a mechanical process releasing the Air from the Cannister. I don't want to take away from what Terry is doing, and I hope that his project can result in an increasingly streamlined, smaller, less expensive production model. Perhaps two models.. one that is geared towards the $5OO and under market.

The Zeagle Ascent Belt is very interesting as it uses the Belt as a Platform. Divers might not want to wear a system that uses a vest as it's platform as it is like wearing a backpack, but all divers are already wearing a Weight Belt. Perhaps there is a way to combine the Zeagle Belt with a SOSspenders type simple, Suspender enclosed, PFD.

For now. I'm sticking with my suggestion that buddy system divers should be tied off to a buoy that is big enough to support them.
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Old 11-17-2010, 09:04 PM   #32
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Re: SWB Enough is Enough

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Originally Posted by greekdiver View Post
Knowing your limits will save you more than a buddy! Like i have said in the past, if you cant comfortably hunt at a certain depth, you shouldn't be diving that depth.
First off, I'm sorry for your loss Behslayer.
I agree. A buddy is not always an option. I hunt alone because that's the way I like it and if I had to wait for a buddy, I would never get in the water. You have to push your limits in order to improve but you have to be cautious and take your time and don't take foolish chances. And I always start with a prayer.
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Old 11-18-2010, 07:57 AM   #33
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Re: SWB Enough is Enough

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Originally Posted by Behslayer View Post
The news of another friend passing.


Ideas?

Sorry for the frustration. This is getting to be too much. What other sports share this mortality? Base Jumping?

We need to share some ideas. Terry Maas is doing more than everyone else combined, and I do believe he'll get somewhere. He's moving in one direction. We all need to be sharing info and brainstorming. Ideas?
I have an idea to allow you to dive your same depths with near zero risk of SWB.
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Old 11-18-2010, 09:25 AM   #34
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Re: SWB Enough is Enough

Keeping it a Secret does nobody any good. I have an idea which would allow you to dive to these depths with increased safety and less chance from Dying from SWB... Use a vigilant buddy system and tie yourself off to a buoy which will float your body weight.
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Old 11-18-2010, 09:44 AM   #35
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Re: SWB Enough is Enough

You seriously want your body to be tied to a line while freediving? What happens if a shark comes in chasing a large jack that you shot? Say the jack swims 3-4 times around you and your ascent line, tangling it, then the shark (or for us, maybe a 350 lb jewfish) grabs the speared fish and takes off for open water or drags the fish into a hole.

Sounds like one hell of a ride, especially for a freediver.

I know there is no one size fits all answer, but I would rather take my chances with a normal floatline tied to the gun or shaft and an attentive buddy rather than tethered freedive hunting.

And I suspect Inletsurf is being a wise ass on a thread that should probably be treated with some respect and seriousness, considering that this thread was initiated based on the loss of a friend.
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Old 11-18-2010, 10:21 AM   #36
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Re: SWB Enough is Enough

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And I suspect Inletsurf is being a wise ass on a thread that should probably be treated with some respect and seriousness, considering that this thread was initiated based on the loss of a friend.
No, I'm being serious. A freediver can't be an elitist or purist and take huge risks then reject those risks when the results are not favorable, seeking technology as an answer. Sorry about your friend, but, he chose the sport of freediving with the risk associated just like you have. Now if one is looking towards technology to prevent SWB when yesterday that same person was preaching all that elitist crap, then basically it defines anyone who uses an anti-SWB apparatus as a HYPOCRITE. You can't be a purist and use technology. Or can you? If you can, now where is the purist line drawn?

My point is that the lines between freediving purism and scuba become blurry when you use anti-SWB or other technology, and I would expect freedivers to recognize this in future discussions.

Good luck, my condolences to you regarding your friend.

Last edited by inletsurf; 11-18-2010 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 11-18-2010, 10:47 AM   #37
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Re: SWB Enough is Enough

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.................................................. ... then basically it defines anyone who uses an anti-SWB apparatus as a HYPOCRITE. You can't be a purist and use technology. Or can you? If you can, now where is the purist line drawn?

My point is that the lines between freediving purism and scuba become blurry when you use anti-SWB or other technology, and I would expect freedivers to recognize this in future discussions.

Good luck, my condolences to you regarding your friend.
So freedivers should eliminate all technology? ie mask & fins etc.

You seem to miss the point; ADDING SAFETY to our sport, breath hold diving. The SWB technology is designed to bring one to the surface; NOT supply breathing gas while underwater!!!

Dr. Maas's vest is the current BEST solution; the major problem is price.
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Old 11-18-2010, 10:56 AM   #38
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Re: SWB Enough is Enough

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So freedivers should eliminate all technology? ie mask & fins etc.
Absolutely not, they do not change the nature of breath hold

Quote:

You seem to miss the point; ADDING SAFETY to our sport, breath hold diving. The SWB technology is designed to bring one to the surface; NOT supply breathing gas while underwater!!!

Dr. Maas's vest is the current BEST solution; the major problem is price.
Perhaps I did jump the point a bit, but not so much as many freedivers have missed a point in a scuba thread to call out their agenda.

Sorry to disagree on opinions, though, as I believe the buddy system is the best solution. You still need a buddy to be ready to retrieve the floating vest-donned unconcious person. Although Terry's system has probably been tested, I doubt it has been proven by public use yet. Putting 100% faith and life in relatively new technology and discrediting the buddy system is not a wise choice IMO.

-edit- I mean TRAINED buddy system.


Freediving fins, masks, all the technologically advanced gear helps anyone extend their capabilities to deeper depths and longer durations. Depending on personal discipline, this could mean either added risk or reduced risk. To an average freediver, I believe it presents an opportunity of added risk, as the person will likely attempt to extend their capabilities using those products. So is the answer in this case to design an automated float vest to retrieve an unconcious diver? With this vest are divers likely to extend their capabilites even more with the false confidence that this is the BEST solution? Scuba was invented as safety and convenience to eliminate breath hold and that line is obviously clear now....but in the future with advancements will it continue to be so clear? What is next after the vest? Initially before I saw JFJF's post about being a wise ass, I was going to post a real idea different from the freedive vest...but it is something that draws closer to a redundant breathing system than the vest. But I had to meet his expectations .

How about this: 1) know your limits. Not everyone is equal in capability and health. Some are just naturally great breath-hold divers (like Blesum, Cam, etc). Find a comfort zone that works and stay there. If you do try to extend your range, do it under tightly controlled environments for a period of time before you "trust" yourself. 2) Train your buddies well.

Otherwise, freediving is a matter of personal risk management. If you go deeper or longer, the risk gets higher. Everyone who freedives is subject to this, whether they recognize it or not. Where do you draw the line? Should I know my capability and abide by it or should I buy a vest and feel confident?

Last edited by inletsurf; 11-18-2010 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 11-18-2010, 11:13 AM   #39
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Re: SWB Enough is Enough

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Absolutely not, they do not change the nature of breath hold



Perhaps I did jump the point a bit, but not so much as many freedivers have missed a point in a scuba thread to call out their agenda.

Sorry to disagree on opinions, though, as I believe the buddy system is the best solution. You still need a buddy to be ready to retrieve the floating vest-donned unconcious person. Although Terry's system has probably been tested, I doubt it has been proven by public use yet. Putting 100% faith and life in relatively new technology and discrediting the buddy system is not a wise choice IMO.

-edit- I mean TRAINED buddy system.
Is you opinion based on any significant freediving experience? I don't recall you making freedive reports?

The vest is designed to support the diver in a face up position. If the vest functions in this manner and the diver has been brought to the surface "soon" after the BO, it is reasonable to believe that it is likely that the diver will recover on thier own.

The buddy system is great, but when visibility conditions are poor (exactly like the area where you dive) the ability to constantly track, support and recover a breathhold diver from the surface can not be assured and in many situations it is impossible. The buddy system is IMPRACTICAL and of very limited utility in certain challenging dive conditions.

Utilization of a safety device does not imply that a freediver is putting 100% faith in the technology and I'm sure that the people marketing that vest promote it as an enhancement rather than a replacement of the buddy system.
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Old 11-18-2010, 11:36 AM   #40
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Re: SWB Enough is Enough

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Is you opinion based on any significant freediving experience? I don't recall you making freedive reports?

The vest is designed to support the diver in a face up position. If the vest functions in this manner and the diver has been brought to the surface "soon" after the BO, it is reasonable to believe that it is likely that the diver will recover on thier own.

The buddy system is great, but when visibility conditions are poor (exactly like the area where you dive) the ability to constantly track, support and recover a breathhold diver from the surface can not be assured and in many situations it is impossible. The buddy system is IMPRACTICAL and of very limited utility in certain challenging dive conditions.

Utilization of a safety device does not imply that a freediver is putting 100% faith in the technology and I'm sure that the people marketing that vest promote it as an enhancement rather than a replacement of the buddy system.

So Jim, if I don't make freediving reports that must mean I don't freedive by your logic, right? How many reports have I posted on spearboard in 4 years Jim? Zero. Zero reports Jim. Does that mean I don't spearfish or dive? No. It means I do not post reports.

I might not freedive 100% of the time, nor take it as seriously as the guys pushing out to 80+ feet, but I'd say I make dives on nearly every trip that qualifies as freediving. I also have cracked cressi fins and no camo wetsuit, can my opinion still be made?

If the visibility conditions are poor, maybe you shouldn't dive, ever think of that? And if you do dive in shitty conditions, then you should be aware and accepting of the increase of risk. You say that utilization of the safety device does not imply 100% faith, but the comments already made certainly does.

I can research all the forums and find instances of freedivers saving their friends/buddies from SWB, but I have yet to read one instance of the vest saving a life. Maybe because its not in production yet, I don't know...I haven't been following it. However, I do know that the real test of a product is a real life scenario. I am awaiting a good report of the vest in this case, but either way, it should not supercede good buddy practice and respect of one's limit of capabilities.
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Old 11-18-2010, 11:43 AM   #41
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Re: SWB Enough is Enough

Sorry to Behslayer if I seem out of line...re-reading it I do seem callous given the circumstance and I apologize, however my points would be the same given the subject matter without the personal tragedy connection.
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Old 11-18-2010, 07:53 PM   #42
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Re: SWB Enough is Enough

Inlet Surf, I'm still waiting on the idea. We are looking for discussion on ways to improve safety and decrease the odds of divers dying from SWB. The rest is padding.

JFJF. Your point is very valid. Ofcourse this line needs to be easily removeable, ie UnClipped, or ditch the belt, as it is tied on anyways. The idea is when diving with a Buddy, and specifically in areas where you know you are going fairly deep, to use a reel and a Floatline Clipped off to your belt. Could a fish wrap the line? Could a Shark etc get involved, etc. etc. yes. I'm not suggesting this for all situations, but for the situations in which my friends have died, it would have helped. If nothing else we could have recovered the body, which has not happened. We were able to recover the guns in both cases as they were loaded.. attached to the Float.

Another friend of mine has suggested some kind of EPIRB for Divers.. are there any Depth proof EPIRBS out there? Used properly, this would have saved another friend of mine a 12 mile overnight swim thorugh a Deep, currented, Sharky, Channel last year.. and also would have probably allowed us to find my friend who dissapeared last week.
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Old 11-18-2010, 08:00 PM   #43
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Re: SWB Enough is Enough

Perhaps there is some distinct, measureable, physiological pattern that occurs when someone blacks out which could be sensed by a watch and auto trigger a timer countdown to inflate a smaller vest? If 99% of SWB occurs within 15ft of the surface... it would only require a minimal amount of lift, ie a small float collar and small apparatus to lift a victim to the surface.
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Old 11-18-2010, 09:51 PM   #44
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Re: SWB Enough is Enough

I'm wondering. . . one thing that is important is to be able to block water from being breathed in, if a SWB occurs. . . a trained buddy is most useful, as he can dive down, secure the diver, hold his mouth shut and the mask on his face, while bringing him to the surface. (Protecting the airway). . .not sure a vest could do something like that. . . though time is of the essence and floating them from 15 feet depth, or less, quickly, might just do it.

As far as what may trigger the device. . .I don't know what TMaas has found, but I would think that a detection of low PPO. . . maybe at 11-12% would be a somewhat useful, additional? decent trigger. (Safety margin of maybe 1-2%). . . use a pulse oximeter or similar, but more accurate device of some kind to detect low oxygen (PPO)????

Keep going. . . you're doing good. . .

BTW. . .why do you even bother diving, when you're got awesome surfing waves like in your website??? LOL! Just kidding. . .

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Old 11-18-2010, 10:11 PM   #45
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Re: SWB Enough is Enough

[quote=Behslayer;1322790]Inlet Surf, I'm still waiting on the idea.


I believe he's talking about SCUBA, which does come with it's own dangers as well.
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