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All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

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Old 08-23-2019, 11:04 PM   #16
CuzzA
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Re: Why do we open the end of an enclosed track?

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Originally Posted by Hpwatson View Post
I agree. Unfortunately I have to build what the client paid me for! What I do is I offer completely custom builds rather than pre-made designs. So people can tell me every detail of what kind of gun they want, from components all the way down to curves and colors. So I end up building a different gun every time I make something. I'm surprised how often I get asked to do an enclosed track.
I was never a big fan of enclosed tracks anyway but these recent discussions have got me even more on the other side. Unless it is unavoidable I will urging future clients to let me design their gun with an open track.
The solution I have seen for the muzzle issue with enclosed tracks (which I too am not a fan of) is to laminate about six inches of the muzzle with carbon fiber. Obviously this would add cost to your client, but it may save his gun from becoming a wall ornament when he shoots a big fish at close range.
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Old 08-24-2019, 03:38 AM   #17
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Re: Why do we open the end of an enclosed track?

Who here has broken the muzzle or damaged the track on an ET gun from shooting a fish at point blank range? I ask because I hear this said all the time, but I've never seen it or know anyone this has happened too. This meme gets repeated often, have any of you personally damaged the track/muzzle? I've shot a few large fish over the years with ET's from point blank range and never had this happen. After the shot I throw the gun back to get the shaft out of the track.
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Old 08-24-2019, 08:02 AM   #18
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Re: Why do we open the end of an enclosed track?

I snapped the timber muzzle off my gun when the 9 mm shaft hit the bottom as I rolled over to take the shot as the fish went by underneath me.
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Old 08-24-2019, 05:05 PM   #19
Spear One
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Re: Why do we open the end of an enclosed track?

I had a guy in the shop a couple years ago that told me he shot a big Cobia that was laying flat on the bottom and it let him descend right down on top of it. When he finally pulled the trigger he was so close that the shaft did not exit the gun. He shot it in the top of the head and when the Cobia bolted forward it snapped the end of the gun off.
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Old 08-24-2019, 05:37 PM   #20
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Re: Why do we open the end of an enclosed track?

I broke the end of the enclosed track on my big gun just from letting it bounce around in the boat a little bit running between spots. Happened before I had ever even shot a fish with the gun!
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Old 08-24-2019, 05:44 PM   #21
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Re: Why do we open the end of an enclosed track?

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Who here has broken the muzzle or damaged the track on an ET gun from shooting a fish at point blank range? I ask because I hear this said all the time, but I've never seen it or know anyone this has happened too. This meme gets repeated often, have any of you personally damaged the track/muzzle? I've shot a few large fish over the years with ET's from point blank range and never had this happen. After the shot I throw the gun back to get the shaft out of the track.
What is large to one person, may not qualify as large to another person

Sorry...just bustin your chops..
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Old 08-24-2019, 08:44 PM   #22
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Re: Why do we open the end of an enclosed track?

If you have ever shot a 25 or 30 lb Gag, a 70 to 100 lb Carbo, or a 50 to 70 lb Cubera snapper under a ledge or wreck, then you already know how easy these big fish can snap the muzzle on any gun. Often when you shoot a large fish under a ledge and you don’t stone it the result can feel something like a bomb going off. These fish go nuts. The difference between breaking a slip on plastic muzzle (ie. Ocean Rhino) and actually breaking off the wooden end of an enclosed track gun is huge. I can replace a broken Ocean Rhino muzzle in about 1 minute. Repairing the broken end of an enclosed track barrel......not so easy, if at all.

Think about it this way......you just shot a huge fish and it runs under a ledge or wreck. You load up your spare shaft and take aim at the fish. Just as you get ready to fire you think to yourself......if the shaft does not clear the barrel and I don’t stone this fish, I am likely gonna trash an $800.00 gun. Now ask yourself, just when you have the opportunity to harvest the fish of a lifetime, do you really want a thought like that running through your head? No, you don’t and you shouldn’t have to. Your only thought process should be on thinking the situation through, line up a great shot, and get ready to rumble.

I think enclosed track guns certainly have their place in the industry and many divers like them and use them in many different types of Spearfishing. However, I personally don’t think they are at their best when used as a lineshaft/Freeshaft down in the trenches scuba shootin’ gun.
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Old 08-24-2019, 10:10 PM   #23
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Re: Why do we open the end of an enclosed track?

I've repaired Multiple guns where someone has shot a big fish up close and the muzzle has been cracked because the Shaft hasn't cleared the track yet.
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Old 08-24-2019, 10:11 PM   #24
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Re: Why do we open the end of an enclosed track?

I much prefer an enclosed track gun, for scuba especially. The ease of loading is the biggest factor for me. I really have not seen evidence of a loss of power from friction in an enclosed track (but to be honest, I have never done empirical or objective comparisons).

As for the issue of shooting a large fish very close, the enclosed track and closed muzzle seem to have the same problem. You need to instinctively throw the gun back immediately after the shot and grab the shaft. That is pretty much what you want to do anytime shooting in a hole - I guess.

I once snapped the muzzle off the end of a gun which had a closed muzzle. Only happened to me once. Not something I really worry about.
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Old 08-25-2019, 12:42 AM   #25
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Re: Why do we open the end of an enclosed track?

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I much prefer an enclosed track gun, for scuba especially. The ease of loading is the biggest factor for me. I really have not seen evidence of a loss of power from friction in an enclosed track (but to be honest, I have never done empirical or objective comparisons).

As for the issue of shooting a large fish very close, the enclosed track and closed muzzle seem to have the same problem. You need to instinctively throw the gun back immediately after the shot and grab the shaft. That is pretty much what you want to do anytime shooting in a hole - I guess.

I once snapped the muzzle off the end of a gun which had a closed muzzle. Only happened to me once. Not something I really worry about.
Majd did a very thorough video on a Pathos (I think the 125 Sniper) which comes with an ET - which he then removed. He tested before and after he removed the track and the performance difference was def there. Then he went on to a whole host of his other little mods, but if I recall correctly there was no doubt the ET on that gun hurt the shaft speed/performance.
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Old 08-25-2019, 05:36 AM   #26
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Re: Why do we open the end of an enclosed track?

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I really have not seen evidence of a loss of power from friction in an enclosed track .
It's not just the friction of the shaft in contact with the enclosed track. As that shaft leaves the track it is Sucking water in behind it to fill the vacuumed void being left behind, which of cource is added resistance.
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Old 08-25-2019, 12:57 PM   #27
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Re: Why do we open the end of an enclosed track?

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It's not just the friction of the shaft in contact with the enclosed track. As that shaft leaves the track it is Sucking water in behind it to fill the vacuumed void being left behind, which of cource is added resistance.
That's an interesting thought but I wonder how much the water pressure reduces that issue. The deeper you take the shot, the more the pressure will help fill in that void faster.
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Old 08-25-2019, 02:12 PM   #28
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Re: Why do we open the end of an enclosed track?

All this being said, Theory and Static Testing vs. Real Life experience can at times be at odds and often don't take into consideration the individual. Recoil tolerance, diving style, aiming style, etc.. In the end, guys who are good divers who dive a lot, will use what works best for them. Enclosed Track Reef guns are very popular in Hawaii. The water is clear, the guns are longer, i.e. 120-130cm band stretch 2 bands, the shafts are a bit thinner i.e. 9/32" and 7.5mm, the guns are fairly low profile i.e. thin. And it is not easy to get a shot on a good fish and many Divers use Enclosed Track guns very effectively. The other day my buddy was using an Enclosed Track KAP and he hit all three of the very good eating reef fish he shot in the eye.. at 100'+ deep and fairly long shots. Am I going to tell him to stop using his ET guns because they are inefficient?
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Old 08-25-2019, 04:01 PM   #29
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Re: Why do we open the end of an enclosed track?

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That's an interesting thought but I wonder how much the water pressure reduces that issue. The deeper you take the shot, the more the pressure will help fill in that void faster.
It isn't a "thought" or a "Theory" it is science...and has been tested and proven...
But what ever...I sure don't care what anyone shoots. shoot what you like...PERIOD!
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Old 08-25-2019, 04:52 PM   #30
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Re: Why do we open the end of an enclosed track?

Seems that we are getting away here from the topic of the thread and that is why the track is opened up at the muzzle end. If the track slot is widened at a short taper rather than just ending abruptly it serves as a guide for the tabs as the shaft is inserted during reloading.

As for suction try pulling the shaft out by hand with your gun submerged or just pumping the shaft back and forth in the gun and you will find out if suction is a factor.
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