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Old 10-31-2016, 04:56 PM   #31
popgun pete
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

Here are more photos of the all important winding drums and the ball bearing supported axle where you can see how the components fit very closely together to make for an extremely compact installation in the muzzle of the "Dreamair" speargun.
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Old 10-31-2016, 05:44 PM   #32
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

are these going to make a huge BANG underwater when it fires? like the pneumatics do? - never cared for that feature. On scuba - it doesn't matter ass much - but for freediving - we try to be all quiet and stealthy and then BAM - someone fires off their pop gun- ahah
seriously - I love this idea - and have been thinking about this for a long time- as far as winding a spring on a wheel and using the release to shoot .
such a cool idea (i realize this is different - but sort of similar)
what seems like an issue - is both sets of "springs" have to be pulling at the same exact power for it to utilize the power of both at the same time - right?
is that a difficulty?
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Old 10-31-2016, 10:49 PM   #33
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

Hi Impaler, once again, so categorical in your statements;-)
You are partly right about the bang. But many pneumatics have moved on from since The Big Bang. And though there is a distinct sound of the piston hitting the shock absorber, my vacuum muzzled guns seem silent enough to take fish.
When a school is spooked I would be hard pressed to tell whether it is because one of their brothers got shot in their very midst or cuz of the sound the gun made in the process.

I did once dive with a French guy who said he could hear my gun more than his 110(?) RA. But then again, my gun would outperform his by a huge margin and I could always hear him let of shots, too;-). Come to think about it, I can often hear a band gun of a fellow diver even though they may be out of my viz.

I don't know if the gun in question will be very loud but I guess it depends on the newly incorporated shock absorber. Maybe a bit of a whoosh sound from the drums, like a Tesla?;-)
But actually, though the piston in this gun is bigger than in a regular airgun, it could possibly be easier to slow down as the spear is not jammed into it with a press fit. It could be that in total this piston carries less mass. So, perhaps the sound on impact wont be that bad.

Here's a quick video I compiled for another thread where we talked about Rainbow Runners and their behaviour, but it does give a bit of an impression of the sound of two of my vacuum muzzled guns. I notice that the sound of the reel is comparable to the shot itself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM45z6FtwC0
(read the video info about the size of guns and particular the low powered second shot)

Last edited by Diving Gecko; 10-31-2016 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 11-01-2016, 12:13 AM   #34
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

I don't want to be categorical in my statements- i have no idea what you mean by that - I have dove with guys with pneumatics and they were quite loud - I wasn't aware they had changed that.
my bad.

i will stay off your pop gun threads - since I noticed that - in spite of putting the thread in a public forum on a busy (all about guns) forum a few people seem to get quite annoyed by the comments and questions people who aren't pop gun disciples - (like me) seem to have.

Maybe there should be a separate forum category altogether for the pop guns- that way - your thread isn't always popping up in our faces which lkeads to questions and comments from the peanut gallery - that is obviously annoying you.
I have people outwardly hostile and will straight up personally disrespect me on my threads for saying I like this or don;t like that.
I just deal with it and take it in stride - since I put myself out there by posting a thread or commenting on someone else's
My point is - if you don't want to be bothered with simple questions from simple minds like mine- why post diagrams a nasa engineer would have trouble understanding?
There are like - maybe 5 people who understand those diagrams in a real world application - on SB - so you really aren't likely to get much more than categorically dumb questions from the other 2000 members.
If it were me- and I wasn't just showing off how smart I am to all the dummies - and I REALLY didn't want questions about pop guns gone wild - like this- I would just put it somewhere out of sight from us simple minded country folk.haha
Really though- there should be a pop gun category so this stuff is kept to the nasa engineers where it belongs and not annoying people like me making categorical questions about stuff that everyone already knows - like pop guns don't make alot of noise anymore. sorry about that.
I know I wouldn't want you jumping into my thread - while we are discussing rollers in trigger mechs - in the sear/trigger location and if they are necessary- i wouldn't want you to pop up and ask me why sears aren't made from wood or something idiotic like that.
I wouldn't like that either- and if the only reason you were ON the thread is because the kayak fishing thread and the trigger mech thread were in the same spot.
I would ask Tony to separate the two.
I saw a few posts on your thread accusing you of jibber jabber and hogwash or something like that- nobody responded to that post at all- but when I ask about pop noises - I got berated for it. Not sure about that line of reasoning - but the answer to it - is the same- put it somewhere else on the forum.
Doesn't that make sense.?
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Old 11-01-2016, 06:03 AM   #35
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

How noisy the "Dreamair" gun is when it shoots is something only the guys field testing the prototype guns know about. In a pneumatic speargun of the Mares "Sten" type most of the noise stems from the sliding piston crashing into the anvil of the muzzle's shock absorber. Situated right behind that anvil's impact face are the muzzle relief ports (usually four in number, but there can be more) which are placed there to channel water which otherwise would be unable to exit through the constriction of the muzzle bore. That muzzle constriction keeps the sliding piston trapped inside the gun.

The muzzle relief ports also create a direct pathway for impact noise to radiate out of the gun's muzzle, hence if the muzzle relief ports are totally eliminated, as they are in a vacuum barrel pneumatic gun, then the impact noise can only radiate from the body of the gun. Experience shows that vacuum barrel guns are less noisy than their wet barrel counterparts, so it should follow that the "Dreamair" gun will be less noisy than a regular pneumatic gun as it also has no relief ports, but it does have a much larger sliding piston. The recent photo of a sliding column shock absorber (see my earlier post above) indicates that the piston will be decelerated over a much longer distance in the "Dreamair" gun than it is in a pneumatic gun (in a pneumatic gun that "stopping distance" is only a few millimetres at most). Therefore the piston impact noise should be greatly reduced, but by how much we will not know until we see and listen to some videos of the "Dreamair" spearguns in action.

As for "springs"; the "Dreamair" speargun uses compressed air pressure to act as its energy storage medium, hence all the cables operate off the same "air column" spring which means that there is no side to side variation. However the winding drums have to wind in sync and to ensure that happens the winding drums are indexed on the axle by keyways that ensure that their spiral tracks are at the same angular rotation for both left and right hand side drums.

Last edited by popgun pete; 11-01-2016 at 06:20 AM.
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Old 11-01-2016, 07:28 AM   #36
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impaler Spearguns View Post
I don't want to be categorical in my statements- i have no idea what you mean by that - I have dove with guys with pneumatics and they were quite loud - I wasn't aware they had changed that.
my bad.

i will stay off your pop gun threads - since I noticed that - in spite of putting the thread in a public forum on a busy (all about guns) forum a few people seem to get quite annoyed by the comments and questions people who aren't pop gun disciples - (like me) seem to have.

Maybe there should be a separate forum category altogether for the pop guns- that way - your thread isn't always popping up in our faces which lkeads to questions and comments from the peanut gallery - that is obviously annoying you.
I have people outwardly hostile and will straight up personally disrespect me on my threads for saying I like this or don;t like that.
I just deal with it and take it in stride - since I put myself out there by posting a thread or commenting on someone else's
My point is - if you don't want to be bothered with simple questions from simple minds like mine- why post diagrams a nasa engineer would have trouble understanding?
There are like - maybe 5 people who understand those diagrams in a real world application - on SB - so you really aren't likely to get much more than categorically dumb questions from the other 2000 members.
If it were me- and I wasn't just showing off how smart I am to all the dummies - and I REALLY didn't want questions about pop guns gone wild - like this- I would just put it somewhere out of sight from us simple minded country folk.haha
Really though- there should be a pop gun category so this stuff is kept to the nasa engineers where it belongs and not annoying people like me making categorical questions about stuff that everyone already knows - like pop guns don't make alot of noise anymore. sorry about that.
I know I wouldn't want you jumping into my thread - while we are discussing rollers in trigger mechs - in the sear/trigger location and if they are necessary- i wouldn't want you to pop up and ask me why sears aren't made from wood or something idiotic like that.
I wouldn't like that either- and if the only reason you were ON the thread is because the kayak fishing thread and the trigger mech thread were in the same spot.
I would ask Tony to separate the two.
I saw a few posts on your thread accusing you of jibber jabber and hogwash or something like that- nobody responded to that post at all- but when I ask about pop noises - I got berated for it. Not sure about that line of reasoning - but the answer to it - is the same- put it somewhere else on the forum.
Doesn't that make sense.?
First things first:
I don't know what thread of jibber jabber and kayaking you are referring to? I think you were a bit fast on the trigger as I am quite sure you are mixing me up with someone else. When it comes to staying off each others threads, I am definitely not staying off your Wedge thread as there is a ton of good info going on over there that airgun aficionados can relate to, too;-). And I am really looking forward to some tests.

Now, on to the rest of your post.
You are being too sensitive;-)
When I replied to your 'Bang post' I had the winky smiley on, I explained that I felt that things have changed, then gave my view on your specific question in regards to how the new gun might sound and then finally, I shared a link for you to view. All that actually took me some decent time to put together. I think that should show you that I think you have every right to ask your questions and I am more than OK with sharing my thoughts. Otherwise, I would of course not have bothered to reply.

The thing I wanted to address was your comment about how all pneumatics make a big bang when fired. I am sure you are right in your observations that your friend's guns were loud. But it doesn't need to be like that at all, so not all airguns are loud as hell per definition - that's what was categorical about your statement:-).
On the same note, some band spearos also think that airguns have to be pumped up after each session. It's an understandable misconception, so it still pops up once in a while. It would be like me saying that Riffe guns shoot like crap not knowing that they have gotten better (have they, actually, haha?).

But as you know, a lot of people don't really do their own research but pick up things here and there online and make it their own truth. Sometimes, what they pick up is actually correct info but sometimes it is not. (For much the same reason, you are setting out to do your own in-depth testing which I applaud).
I, personally, think airguns are very often underestimated and it would be a pity if someone disregarded them completely because they read some outdated notions or misinformation.

Sorry for the derail, back to the airgun in question:-)

Last edited by Diving Gecko; 11-02-2016 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 11-01-2016, 02:08 PM   #37
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impaler Spearguns View Post
I don't want to be categorical in my statements- i have no idea what you mean by that - I have dove with guys with pneumatics and they were quite loud - I wasn't aware they had changed that.
my bad.

i will stay off your pop gun threads - since I noticed that - in spite of putting the thread in a public forum on a busy (all about guns) forum a few people seem to get quite annoyed by the comments and questions people who aren't pop gun disciples - (like me) seem to have.

Maybe there should be a separate forum category altogether for the pop guns- that way - your thread isn't always popping up in our faces which lkeads to questions and comments from the peanut gallery - that is obviously annoying you.
I have people outwardly hostile and will straight up personally disrespect me on my threads for saying I like this or don;t like that.
I just deal with it and take it in stride - since I put myself out there by posting a thread or commenting on someone else's
My point is - if you don't want to be bothered with simple questions from simple minds like mine- why post diagrams a nasa engineer would have trouble understanding?
There are like - maybe 5 people who understand those diagrams in a real world application - on SB - so you really aren't likely to get much more than categorically dumb questions from the other 2000 members.
If it were me- and I wasn't just showing off how smart I am to all the dummies - and I REALLY didn't want questions about pop guns gone wild - like this- I would just put it somewhere out of sight from us simple minded country folk.haha
Really though- there should be a pop gun category so this stuff is kept to the nasa engineers where it belongs and not annoying people like me making categorical questions about stuff that everyone already knows - like pop guns don't make alot of noise anymore. sorry about that.
I know I wouldn't want you jumping into my thread - while we are discussing rollers in trigger mechs - in the sear/trigger location and if they are necessary- i wouldn't want you to pop up and ask me why sears aren't made from wood or something idiotic like that.
I wouldn't like that either- and if the only reason you were ON the thread is because the kayak fishing thread and the trigger mech thread were in the same spot.
I would ask Tony to separate the two.
I saw a few posts on your thread accusing you of jibber jabber and hogwash or something like that- nobody responded to that post at all- but when I ask about pop noises - I got berated for it. Not sure about that line of reasoning - but the answer to it - is the same- put it somewhere else on the forum.
Doesn't that make sense.?
I hope you realize that your comments are mixing up two people here. I post the technical info and I don't participate in arguments or put downs, but I cannot speak for others on that score.
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Old 11-03-2016, 03:53 AM   #38
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

I have received some more photos of the axle components, winding drums and and the roller bearings which sit in the carriers, or support housings, on each side of the axle. Metal keys are used in the various milled slots on the axles in order to mount the drums on the axles so that they are at the correct angular orientation with respect to each other and maintain that alignment over the life of the gun.
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Old 11-03-2016, 04:11 AM   #39
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

The other aspect that needs to be controlled is the attachment of the cables to the winding drums. The cables have to be anchored at the exact location required for the cables to wind on and off properly both during loading and the shot. Note that a loop end created by splicing the cable allows each cable to be attached without resorting to knots and thus allows the cable length to be determined very accurately. This is important as the cable lengths side to side have to match the length of the spiral drum tracks which in turn control the operating stroke of the speargun, with an "extra" loop end being added for the actual "wishbone".
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Old 11-03-2016, 06:06 AM   #40
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

I am sorry ... but I just can't see this even remotely working well. Just way too many things happening and all way too delicate. We are just trying to propel a spearfishing shaft for God's sake ... surely this is not the way to go.

Is there any video of this thing being loaded and being shot. For all we know that fish with the gun next to it ... maybe they clubbed the fish to death
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Old 11-03-2016, 07:59 AM   #41
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

Majd, show some respect - you know that fish didn't die like that!
The old grouper obviously loved amazingly beautiful design (it's probably Italian born) and just felt it could die happy right there having seen the prettiest and highest handled gun in the universe;-)

Joke aside, the intellectual energy put into this gun is just amazing and I respect that. The industrial design and machining is stunning, too. I really, really wish my fears are unfounded and that the gun will be a laser blaster.

I get you though... I mean, in simple terms, you only get as much power in a shot as you can load the gun with in the first place. More bands on a band gun is one way to "cheat" this equation and stock more energy for that one shot, but this gun doesn't offer this. At least, I don't think it does? Unless, I am getting the function of the double wishbones wrong. Well, maybe I am wrong. Maybe you load one wishbone with all your might and pull the piston halfway up through its travel in the barrel and then you load the other wishbone which pulls the piston the rest of the way? But how would that work when releasing the shot? Would one wishbone not move at all for half the time? I am too tired to think that through...
Anyways, the question is whether this gun offers a way to partition the loading effort and store more energy than what would equate to a simple "singular loading effort" as in a traditional pneumatic or a single banded gun.
What do you say, Pete?

What this gun does, not counting the intricate parts and the added friction, is to change the loading curve and I guess the power delivery curve to the spear. The designer says, the altered loading curve makes you able to store more energy but how much more? Enough to overcome the added friction?
Whether the fine tuning of the delivery power curve makes much change, I have no clue about. Maybe it does, but how much? Enough to offset the added complexity of the gun?
I guess it delivers power to the spear more gradually, right? So does an inverted roller but some spearos feel that is not enough which is why they pair the inverted bands with a direct booster band, just to "wake up" the spear up and get it going.

I speculate that If it ends up as powerful as a one or two banded gun of the same length, most spearos will go for the simpler gun.
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Old 11-03-2016, 08:00 AM   #42
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

You (spearq8) will soon find out, and so will I, as Andreas Zournatzis has just sent me a message saying that he will be sending me a video and some more photos. By the way he is only sending me all this info as I decided to read up on this device when it was first brought to my attention some years ago by a third party. Thinking that it was a project doomed to failure I was initially very sceptical, plus inefficiency would probably gobble up any performance gains, so my first assessment was that it was unworkable, but never-the-less worth exploring from a purely technical viewpoint. Hence I unravelled the Physics behind the idea and wrote up a full analysis of it comparing it with a pneumatic speargun in terms of its energy storage capabilities. But what I never expected was the (very costly) engineering precision being brought to bear on the various problems, which may make the gun almost unaffordable, but you can make nearly anything work if you pour enough resources into it. How well it works may be another matter.

Anyway this analysis brought Andreas' attention to my musings and he decided to let me have some more info, so that is why you are seeing this stuff here, and elsewhere. I am not on the company payroll, nor a partner in the project, I am just an observer, like you are.

As for price, well who knows, but in a world where you and I may aspire to a Shelby Cobra or a Dodge Viper, there are many people out there who can splash out on a Bugatti Veyron or a McLaren F1 (or whatever their top model is now), so a speargun of a similar ilk will be no big deal for them. I know some collectors can barely wait to buy one, as long as the “Dreamair” gun works of course. Sixty years ago they would be buying the Rebikoff guns with their ratchet advancing handles, they cost a mint, as did those Hurricane “Carabine” dry spring guns I wrote about here.

P.S. I see in the time that I was writing this DG has posted something which I have not read yet.
P.P.S. If you want to read "chapter and verse" I churned my way right through the concept here, being a research scientist much earlier in my professional career https://forums.deeperblue.com/thread...eargun.101674/
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Old 11-03-2016, 09:36 AM   #43
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

I am an engineer ... so of course I can appreciate nice designs. But form has to follow function ... and if it looks but doesn't function well then ...

I think all this brain power can be used better to make existing designs better. I can think of a few right of the bat that would be very interesting.

1. Fix the low shooting of rollers and invert rollers. I think that is easy enough but still ... it needs to be done. As it is, the more pre-stretch used on rollers the lower they will shoot and the more unstable the shaft gets.

2. Design an invert roller that works single action on top (with #1 fixed) ... then with a press of a button it will load the bottom 32mm bands using a Lithium battery powered screw actuator . The battery could be part of the ballast and the actuator would be waterproof to 120 feet . The invert bands and pulleys would be concealed inside the stock making the gun super sleek. The bands would go all the way back to the butt of the gun giving max band stretch.

3. Design a slip tip that shoots as accurate or more accurate than a recessed floppered shaft!

4. Design a handle that reduces recoil and increases shaft velocity ... allowing the shaft to come out extremely stable and thus giving unbelievable accuracy and very high penetration without adding mass to the gun!
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Old 11-03-2016, 02:26 PM   #44
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

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Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
I am an engineer ... so of course I can appreciate nice designs. But form has to follow function ... and if it looks but doesn't function well then ...

I think all this brain power can be used better to make existing designs better. I can think of a few right of the bat that would be very interesting.

1. Fix the low shooting of rollers and invert rollers. I think that is easy enough but still ... it needs to be done. As it is, the more pre-stretch used on rollers the lower they will shoot and the more unstable the shaft gets.

2. Design an invert roller that works single action on top (with #1 fixed) ... then with a press of a button it will load the bottom 32mm bands using a Lithium battery powered screw actuator . The battery could be part of the ballast and the actuator would be waterproof to 120 feet . The invert bands and pulleys would be concealed inside the stock making the gun super sleek. The bands would go all the way back to the butt of the gun giving max band stretch.

3. Design a slip tip that shoots as accurate or more accurate than a recessed floppered shaft!

4. Design a handle that reduces recoil and increases shaft velocity ... allowing the shaft to come out extremely stable and thus giving unbelievable accuracy and very high penetration without adding mass to the gun!
Well you could always start a new thread on those topics, I am sure you will get plenty of input as spearfishing over the decades has continually come up with new ideas. Also old ones have been recycled, or more correctly reinvented as the earlier versions were forgotten. I have made a study of this by reading all the speargun related patents from the 1930's onwards in the various national databases. Not surprisingly in the earlier period some ideas were patented twice as database searches were not as thorough as they are today and some patents used exactly the same title, e.g. "the perfecting of the underwater rifle", or words to that effect, which were repeated almost ad infinitum.

We have actually been over this ground before in posts #5 and #6 on this thread, the "Dreamair" concept is actually rather simple, but it is the detail engineering required to make it work that is complicated. In speargun "engineering" terms that is. Once that set-up cost has been incurred then it may be possible to churn them out in quantity, but the metal parts quality is something that will need to be maintained.

Last edited by popgun pete; 11-03-2016 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 11-03-2016, 02:57 PM   #45
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Re: The Infinite Engines Dreamair moves from dream to reality

Durability may be an issue if those spiral tracks are damaged on the outer drums. Any nick, or dent, inflicted on the alloy grooving ridges will soon chew up (or "derail") the cables which serve as elongated wishbones. Hence the "Dreamair" gun will not like being bashed up on reef structure at the muzzle end, however the earlier concept drawings show protective covers that fit over the outer winding drums, but those slotted covers do not appear to have materialized at this stage.
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