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Old 01-04-2017, 05:25 PM   #16
Ren
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

I figure if there is a fish big enough to break spectra I better be using a breakaway or let go of the gun and let the floatline/float handle it.

Thanks for posting this up.
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Old 01-09-2017, 02:53 AM   #17
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

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Originally Posted by FreediveCA View Post
Even if spectra has a poor ability to withstand shock, wouldn't bungies help? If my shooting line is rigged to my gun I have a muzzle bungee, with a reel it is shooting line>muzzle bungee>reel line, and breakaway shooting line>bungee. It isn't like the line is being yanked from a deadlock. There should still be some give by other means.
Yes ... for fish like Wahoo ... you really need to put a nice bungee to absorb that crazy initial run the Wahoo does if you don't get a disabling shot. I use about 10 feet of rubber with heavy spectra inside it ... keep about 2.5 to 3x more line inside the bungee than the rubber length. This works really great for Wahoo. With fish like Dogtooth ... I prefer to use two floats ... one will do the initial absorbing of shock ... and the other prevents the fish from tangling deep on the reef. Big Dogtooth will pull a 35L float down like it wasn't even there, and if you have your second float with too much line you will end up with a fish that is tangled deep. I have had to go down with scuba gear to get my gear back way too many times with Dogtooth and now I just fight like hell to keep it off the reef. I have lost more gear to Dogtooth Tuna than all other fish combined. With really big Dogtooth it really is better to just avoid a shot unless you can get a good stone or disabling shot.

As for this spectra line breaking due to a sudden pull ... I guarantee you that there is no fish on earth that can break the 1.9 mm spectra. Most likely the shark fin or some other item on your float line will break before that line does.
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Old 01-09-2017, 12:02 PM   #18
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

Great idea! I'll give this a try myself and see how it works on some big jacks soon. Another line I've been trying to get ahold of for testing is a monofilament made out of PEEK. It's expensive and is pretty much made to order so it's been hard to make happen on my own. I wish a large manufacturer would get on board with some of the new materials available now. If I'm able to get some I'll send you a sample and see what you think!
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Old 01-14-2017, 04:18 AM   #19
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

So, take this with the proverbial grain of salt, but I am unfortunately still not convinced.
Main issue with my testing is that I don't have a stiff non-core line like Majd's. But I did just test the stiff dyneema-cored 2mm line that I do have.

I tried Majd's new 'crimp plus loop' and the first time around it started slipping at 60kg on the test bench. Failed at around 80kg when the burned ball got pulled straight through - like on my earlier tests.
This is with a 2.2mm crimp crimped as hard as I could with my hands.
Then I thought, well now for sure the dyneema has been pre-stretched and thus packed tight - perhaps better resembling the stiffer dyneema - so why not try again.

I crimped it again, this time I put all my weight on the crimping tool - literally with feet off of the ground.
No sliding of the crimp on this attempt but the line broke right on the inside of the crimp where the line makes a loop - which makes sense as most lines just don't like to take sharp turns.
It broke at 110 kg. This is for a line which broke at 168kg when using some longer fishing style knots. I don't know what the breaking strength is for this line in itself as I can't splice it so, so far, all my attempts have it break at the knot.
Whether 110kg is a lot or a little is up to you.

Again, this is not the line you guys are talking about - but at least I think it is safe to say you really, really have to crimp hard. Now, if anyone feels like shipping me a handful of tightly woven dyneema to Shanghai I can certainly try again

Or for all you guys who have a 200-300kg digital scale, you are just a metal profile and a truck cargo strap away from testing this stuff yourself:

Last edited by Diving Gecko; 01-14-2017 at 04:31 AM.
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Old 01-14-2017, 07:28 AM   #20
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

You can't compare hollow core spectra with the stiff spectra ... completely different lines. The hollow spectra will give way as it has nothing in the core and is loosely woven and thus when you crimp you are crimping mostly air. I tried the 1.4mm spectra with crimp and managed to break it ... there is no way I think I can break the 1.7 or 1.9mm line unless I use some mechanical device. The 1.4mm I put on my hook embedded in concrete and pulled as hard as I could. The line finally did break and it broke a little before the hook. The crimp did slip but held firm. I can tell you without doubt that the line will break before the crimp gives way on the 1.4mm line ... now the other stuff we need to test.

The crimp I used on the 1.4mm was a mini crimp ... probably a longer aluminium or copper crimp will do better. Crimps come in many different wall thicknesses and some are very thin walled and might not work with this well. Anyway it is worth trying things out and the best way is to test to breaking point. Here is a picture of the line after I managed to break it.

As for crimping ... you don't have to crimp hard ... that might actually work against you. Just a simple press with your hand like you do with mono is enough.




Last edited by spearq8; 01-14-2017 at 07:41 AM.
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Old 01-14-2017, 08:08 AM   #21
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

My line was a cored line, not hollow. Pretty stiff and much stiffer and more compact on the second test as it had already been "prestretched" with 80kgs of force. But I will redo the tests if I ever get the tightly woven stuff. I have no need for it now, I think.
Well come to think about it... I might have an Indo trip come up, so perhaps if we end up going after doggies, I should rig some of this as for shooting line. Decisions, decisions...

In reg. to your latest test - when the knot breaks before the crimp, that's a good sign and already an improvement. So far, in the tests I have done line with knots tend to break at 50-65% right at the knots.

On a related note, and you seasoned guys know this - I just had two tuna clips fail at about 150-160kg (they start opening at 60-80kg). Same for both the locally sourced one and the one I got from a US shop. That's for the 100mm x 2.6mm ones. If you do want to use tuna clips in heavy blue water rigging, I suggest you make sure you get the ones that are 3.5-4.0mm thick gauge.
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Old 01-14-2017, 10:00 AM   #22
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

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Great idea! I'll give this a try myself and see how it works on some big jacks soon. Another line I've been trying to get ahold of for testing is a monofilament made out of PEEK. It's expensive and is pretty much made to order so it's been hard to make happen on my own. I wish a large manufacturer would get on board with some of the new materials available now. If I'm able to get some I'll send you a sample and see what you think!

I did contact a tennis racket manufacturer to see if they can develop a mono with spectra or kevlar line filaments in the mono. I couldn't seem to get them interested but I am sure there is something there. If you do manage some of that PEEK line send me a sample. I am planning a big test of many different lines (mono, cable and spectra) to see how strong they are and how they affect accuracy and shaft performance.
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Old 01-18-2017, 01:37 PM   #23
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

It's been a very slow process but if I can manage to get some made up I'll send some your way. After speaking to a few mono manufacturers, anything made will probably need to have a fiber additive to really get any good abrasion and cut resistance. They do not have a way of testing and rating it so we would just have to come up with our own method.
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Old 01-18-2017, 03:02 PM   #24
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

and the proverbial gates of heaven now open....spearq8 probably have 9 recipes for cord ingredients already sitting on the shelf. I know he has explained it about 9300 times over the years, but me thinks this thread is just about to turn interesting
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Old 02-26-2017, 03:28 AM   #25
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

I did some more work on crimping the stiff spectra line. On the original protocol if you pull hard enough you could slip the loop. While that won't lose the fish it will screw up how your line is attached to the shaft and you most likely have to re-tie your line after stressing it severely. I think with this new protocol the crimp is still very streamlined but there is no way it is going to slip. This time I tried it with the 1.7mm stiff spectra rather than the 1.4mm stuff ... and I just couldn't slip the knot or break the line. It does look like it is worth trying out in actual hunting conditions. I actually tried this also without even crimping ... and seemed very strong!

On another note, Paul Hutchings has been testing with different crimping and tying setups and hopefully he will share all his information. It is not the same spectra line and his line is made by another company ... and it was breaking at way below what it is rated for. But the crimping looks very promising and was holding up better than knots strength wise ... I will send him this latest protocol to see if he can try it out. I think this Benthic stuff is very strong but I haven't tested it to breaking point to verify actual strength. Hopeful Paul will post his findings or at least allow me to post them.







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Old 02-26-2017, 02:01 PM   #26
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

Have you shot the 1.4 spectra in the pool? How did it shoot? Did it tangle. Did you notice a difference between that and the 1.7. Thanks
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Old 02-27-2017, 04:26 PM   #27
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

From rock-climbing where pull test and slippage can make a life or death difference, I have learned that the strongest tie-in knot is the figure-of-eight follow-through, which, when pull-tested, breaks at 75 to 80 percent of the rope’s full strength. The bowline is a slightly weaker knot, at 70 to 75 percent, followed by the double fisherman’s at 65 to 70 percent.

I have use the figure-of-eight follow-through with the 1.7mm Riffe 600lb spectra for my reef guns and never had a failure. The knot can be laid reasonably flat by controlling the overlaying of the line and when tight give it a few taps with a light tool to make it flatter. I also add a drop of glue to hold everything together. Perhaps encasing the knot in a streamlined shape, using a material like Sugru could be the best option?

For reef use, the 1.7mm spectra is my favorite even though on occasions it tangles a bit more easily than mono. I have a friend who uses the Riffe 2mm 1000lb on his Riffe 130 as a shooting line and he is quite happy, catching 40-50lb snappers which often hole up and destroy spears.

For Blue water hunting, the snap pull failure comments made are valid but I guess that are also valid for the steel cable which is still widely used for big game, including by myself and I suspect that the 2mm spectra may be better than cable both in terms of strength and safety in case it needs cutting, or not?
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Old 02-28-2017, 01:10 AM   #28
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

I think I need to test how different knots vs. crimps perform with regards to actual performance in water. I did try stiff spectra 1.9mm, but it was in hunting situation and not in the pool ... however I felt a huge difference in impact point shift where the shots were much lower that with mono or kevlar+pvc coat. This could be due to the spectra line itself having much higher drag, or because the knot was causing this drag. This is why I like the idea of the crimp on this stiff spectra. I need to test this in the pool to see how these different setups react and affect performance. I do plan to make a comprehensive test using cable, mono, spectra ... knot and crimp. Many believe in cable and even 1.2mm cable is quite strong ... but cable will slice through bands like a hot knife in butter as the cable is serrated. Now there is this covered cable which is smooth ... but it bulks the cable to 1.4mm ... that shows a lot of promise. But again needs to be tested. I don't think I would ever shoot cable that is not covered, but covered might be worth testing. Theoretically you can have high visibility cover on cable ... and the thin cable can be cut with a proper designed knife.

In the end you are only as strong as your weakest link. 300lb mono can take 200lb load without breaking ... but run that line by sharp coral and the strength drops to about 20lb. Now you get cable at 275lb ... it will hold 200lb pull ... yet that strength will be the same if line wraps around coral. Spectra is very strong and much more resistant than mono abrasion wise ... but it does float around all over the place and might tangle more. The stiff spectra seems much better with regards to tangling.
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Old 02-28-2017, 04:48 AM   #29
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

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Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
I think I need to test how different knots vs. crimps perform with regards to actual performance in water. I did try stiff spectra 1.9mm, but it was in hunting situation and not in the pool ... however I felt a huge difference in impact point shift where the shots were much lower that with mono or kevlar+pvc coat. This could be due to the spectra line itself having much higher drag, or because the knot was causing this drag. This is why I like the idea of the crimp on this stiff spectra. I need to test this in the pool to see how these different setups react and affect performance. I do plan to make a comprehensive test using cable, mono, spectra ... knot and crimp. Many believe in cable and even 1.2mm cable is quite strong ... but cable will slice through bands like a hot knife in butter as the cable is serrated. Now there is this covered cable which is smooth ... but it bulks the cable to 1.4mm ... that shows a lot of promise. But again needs to be tested. I don't think I would ever shoot cable that is not covered, but covered might be worth testing. Theoretically you can have high visibility cover on cable ... and the thin cable can be cut with a proper designed knife.

In the end you are only as strong as your weakest link. 300lb mono can take 200lb load without breaking ... but run that line by sharp coral and the strength drops to about 20lb. Now you get cable at 275lb ... it will hold 200lb pull ... yet that strength will be the same if line wraps around coral. Spectra is very strong and much more resistant than mono abrasion wise ... but it does float around all over the place and might tangle more. The stiff spectra seems much better with regards to tangling.
is that dyneema 12 Strand Braids or 8 Strand ?
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Old 02-28-2017, 10:15 AM   #30
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

Just saw this thread for the first time....
I actually broke that 1.7mm line from benthic a few weeks ago...
It was my first time out with that setup to do some testing so the line was fresh... I was doing a quick accuracy test because i found it strange i was missing all of my shots, so I loaded the shaft but didn't wrap the line and didn't notice the line was behind the handle and just fired. Heard a snap and felt a sharp pain on my wrist and hand. On inspection i noticed what had happened.... It snapped somewhere in the middle of the line... My assumption is that it rubbed against the back of the handle edge where the handle fits between your thumb and trigger finger and that's where it snapped....

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