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Old 03-02-2017, 08:41 AM   #31
spearq8
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

I tested the 1.4mm (rated 300lb) stiff spectra with the crimping method I put up here, and have to say I was pretty surprised with the results. The shaft speed was way better than 300lb mono and I used an 8mm @ 160cm shaft on the Sniper 125 I modified in another post ... penetration was dramatically increased on the 6m Tuna Penetration Test even though I was using a full bore Devotosub 8mm shaft with around a 12 mm cross section. Penetration was so much improved I got the feeling it would even pass the 7m test !!! It is like the gun gained an extra band !!! Shots were also a little flatter ... I am almost certain there was an improvement in shaft speed over mono.

I am not really sure why there is an improvement in performance as I thought the spectra would have more drag. The 1.4mm stuff certainly does not and it seems to be floating around a lot more. It is possible that the line unravels much better than mono ... I have know for a while that the way a line unravels off a speargun can affect shaft performance ... and with mono you get these memory kinks in the line that might cost a lot of shaft energy to unravel. Whatever it is ... this is interesting and now I am really curious to how the other lines and cable affect performance.

One thing I want to note is that Rob Allen and Paul have both been testing the stiff spectra ... and both have told me that the line is breaking at about 50% of rated strength ... so the 300lb would be around 150lb. The crimp gives better results than the knot in breaking strength. I am sure the crimp is much more streamlined than a knot as well ... so that seems the best way to go. It seems that the spectra just doesn't like turns. So it is possible that the best way to crimp the line is just a normal crimp ala mono and then at the end of the line (after the crimp) you tunnel the end into the other line and burn the end (this is to prevent the looping from closing). The results is a line that has zero 360 degree turns and might be stronger.
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Old 03-02-2017, 08:47 AM   #32
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

You know I have been on the spectra wagon for a while, but I got a band tangle last week with benthic 1.9mm and it pissed me off so much that I have everything re-rigged with mono at the moment. I never had a problem using an ET but seems to be more trouble with an open track... maybe I'll just live with the possibility that it can happen when using spectra, but I hate not having 100% confidence in a gun.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:06 AM   #33
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

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I did some more work on crimping the stiff spectra line. On the original protocol if you pull hard enough you could slip the loop. While that won't lose the fish it will screw up how your line is attached to the shaft and you most likely have to re-tie your line after stressing it severely. I think with this new protocol the crimp is still very streamlined but there is no way it is going to slip. This time I tried it with the 1.7mm stiff spectra rather than the 1.4mm stuff ... and I just couldn't slip the knot or break the line. It does look like it is worth trying out in actual hunting conditions. I actually tried this also without even crimping ... and seemed very strong!

On another note, Paul Hutchings has been testing with different crimping and tying setups and hopefully he will share all his information. It is not the same spectra line and his line is made by another company ... and it was breaking at way below what it is rated for. But the crimping looks very promising and was holding up better than knots strength wise ... I will send him this latest protocol to see if he can try it out. I think this Benthic stuff is very strong but I haven't tested it to breaking point to verify actual strength. Hopeful Paul will post his findings or at least allow me to post them.







Perhaps, the second knot close to the end of the line, if placed on the end part, may be less subject to pinching under tension. If the crimp is not done correctly it may also weaken the line by pinching it.

Tight turns in knots add weakness, and if bends are introduced they may be stronger if the line is doubled or spread over greater surface. It may be interesting to try some other examples of loop knots retaining high pull strength, with relatively low bulk, including:
- Bimini Twist, claimed to preserve 100% of the line's breaking strain but a bit tricky on a spear. http://www.animatedknots.com/bimini/...om#ScrollPoint
- Non Slip Mono Knot, http://www.animatedknots.com/nonslip...om#ScrollPoint
figure of 8 follow through stopped, which can be made quite flat and rigid with a drop of superglue http://www.animatedknots.com/fig8fol...om#ScrollPoint
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Old 03-02-2017, 01:08 PM   #34
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

Paul mentioned that super glue on knots simply didn't work. The back knot is to prevent the loop from closing as the line slide inside the crimp. I was able to slip the loop if I pulled really hard ... with the knot at the end nothing slipped. Of course the knot will reduce the strength of the line to around 50%. All knots seem to weaken the spectra so ideally we have to find a way to crimp with zero knots. The best way I can think is to just crimp normally and then use a pointed needle to tunnel a hole to pull the end of the line after the crimp through it ... then burn the end. The idea being that pulling the line through and then burning might prevent the loop from closing since you don't have that loop I made anymore. This would be zero knots but not sure if the burned end will be strong enough to not go through the crimp without the loop. Needs to be tested.
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Old 03-02-2017, 01:49 PM   #35
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

Question for the Braided Shooting line users.

Our standard Mono Shooting line is 2.2mm diameter. 400lb breaking strength. We can use a smaller diameter braided line like a dyneema and get increased breaking strength.

My question. Does anyone have problems with this thinnner braid as a shooting line slicing through fish if you shoot through them and they play on the shooting line? You could get away with even 1.4mm and still have similar breaking strength, but that line has a little texture to it and I'm thinking of than thin line sawing right through a Wahoo?
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Old 03-02-2017, 02:42 PM   #36
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

Majd, a couple of questions for you. If the knots are cutting breaking strength in half then are you suggesting a crimp at the other end as well (i.e. the end attaching to the gun, breakaway, etc.)? I understand your initial intention was for increased accuracy, but with your results maybe we should crimp both ends of the shooting line. My other question is related to your mention of a needle to pull the line through. Perhaps I am reading wrong, but seems to me you are going towards splicing, however, I didn't think this line could be spliced. Could you perhaps clear that part up for me? I'm not sure I quite understand.
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Old 03-02-2017, 04:06 PM   #37
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

Jon, I'm slightly unsure if you are referring to the stiff spectra or a different line. If you are referring to the stiff spectra I can tell you that the line creates friction comparable to mono when dragged across a given surface. Indeed, the line has texture, however, the threads are so tight and it almost feels like their is a coating (perhaps there is) that it creates much less friction than other line. I have shot completely through the soft flesh fish of our CA waters where I have the fish playing on my shooting line both with mono and the stiff spectra. I would say the fish was equally sliced.
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:47 PM   #38
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

What size spectra were you using that was comparable to mono. The 1.4? Thinking about trying it but don't want the tangles but don't want to loose to much shaft speed
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Old 03-03-2017, 01:25 AM   #39
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

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Majd, a couple of questions for you. If the knots are cutting breaking strength in half then are you suggesting a crimp at the other end as well (i.e. the end attaching to the gun, breakaway, etc.)? I understand your initial intention was for increased accuracy, but with your results maybe we should crimp both ends of the shooting line. My other question is related to your mention of a needle to pull the line through. Perhaps I am reading wrong, but seems to me you are going towards splicing, however, I didn't think this line could be spliced. Could you perhaps clear that part up for me? I'm not sure I quite understand.
I actually did not test the breaking strength of these lines and am just going by what Paul Hutchings and Rob Allen told me in their testing. Both have been testing these lines pretty intensively and they seem to have had very similar results. The spectra is just not happy with knots somehow ... and with a crimp things seem to be improved. The ideal situation would be to crimp and not have a knot. You cannot splice this thick stiff spectra as it is not hollow core ... but I think that with a needle you can tunnel through it. My idea was to just make a normal loop just like a mono loop and put the crimp just like mono ... but then on the end which goes behind the crimp you tunnel through the other line and burn the end. The idea being is that by burning the end you would have enough to prevent the line from pulling through the crimp ... and at the same time prevent the loop from closing ... all this while not creating any knot. This is all theory of course and haven't tried it.

The 1.4mm spectra did work much better than mono. I never felt mono was a good line for spearfishing, but that is the thing that is most abundant at the moment. Mono tends to get memory kinks when you wrap the line ... and these can't be good for performance. I am sure that a good spearfishing line has yet to be formulated.
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Old 03-03-2017, 01:54 AM   #40
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

I just check near me there s many rope specification but only 2 can be used 16/ 12 strand Jacket braid rope or 16 / 12 strand hollow braid rope both in 2.1mm strength 950 Ib
anyone have idea which one can be used ?available also at 1.6 mm little less strength
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Old 03-03-2017, 11:43 AM   #41
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

My bad, based off yours and their results combined is really what I mean. So based on the results available do you think the answer for this line is a crimp over a knot, and if so, should be done on both ends of the shooting line?

I understand it is simply theory now regarding the needle, so let's theorize. I fear that using a needle to get the line to run through itself would compromise the breaking strength more than a knot. A big one up it has on mono is that it is abrasion resistant in comparison. If we send a needle through aren't we starting off on the wrong foot? My thought is that sending a needle would compromise the individual threads that make up the line in that perhaps it would cause minor abrasions that perhaps we could not see either with our naked eye or on the inner part of the line. My thought is maybe some threads could be snagged/cut as the needle was sent through.

I don't know. I've just been bouncing a bunch of ideas in my head for some time regarding this line... in fact since I made the switch. I am with you in that I feel mono is a terrible line for spearfishing. I don't know if this Aussie Reel USA (Benthic) line is the answer, but I feel it is the best we have available to us now. That being the case I think we need to roll with the punches and figure out the best method of rigging. I've been trying different knots to find the most streamline while still maintaining strength. I even had an idea of heat shrinking the knot thinking it would help streamline and possibly even work similar to a cone in helping break through the water, but quickly threw that thought out the window. If the consensus, however, is that knots are not working than perhaps I am going the wrong direction.
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Old 03-03-2017, 03:20 PM   #42
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

I too have looked at the Bimini twist that Silvertriton suggested. Had some downtime at work and had some of the Aussie line on me so I gave the knot a go. The knot is indeed thinner, however, I believe the figure 8 may be the better option. The Bimini twist seems too long and I fear that would cause more drag than a bulkier, but lighter figure 8. Anyone else want to give that knot on this line a try to see their thoughts (fair warning, it is a bitch to tie with this line)? For now, I am split between keeping with the figure 8 or going Majd's route of a crimp.
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Old 03-03-2017, 04:00 PM   #43
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

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I too have looked at the Bimini twist that Silvertriton suggested. Had some downtime at work and had some of the Aussie line on me so I gave the knot a go. The knot is indeed thinner, however, I believe the figure 8 may be the better option. The Bimini twist seems too long and I fear that would cause more drag than a bulkier, but lighter figure 8. Anyone else want to give that knot on this line a try to see their thoughts (fair warning, it is a bitch to tie with this line)? For now, I am split between keeping with the figure 8 or going Majd's route of a crimp.
what line thickness were you using for the Bimini twist? I think with spectra it may be possible to do it with only a few twists. I have not yet seen the Benthic line, is it a little waxed as the Riffe 1.7mm 600lb?

I have been using the Riffe line with a figure of 8, flattened and with a drop of glue for a couple of years on my Denson 120 and I have yet to break it even with large Cuberas going for the rocks. I have changed the line a couple of times due to a little wear by the spear hole attachment but nothing else.
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Old 03-03-2017, 04:16 PM   #44
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

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what line thickness were you using for the Bimini twist? I think with spectra it may be possible to do it with only a few twists. I have not yet seen the Benthic line, is it a little waxed as the Riffe 1.7mm 600lb?

I have been using the Riffe line with a figure of 8, flattened and with a drop of glue for a couple of years on my Denson 120 and I have yet to break it even with large Cuberas going for the rocks. I have changed the line a couple of times due to a little wear by the spear hole attachment but nothing else.
I am using 1.9 so mine is a little thicker than what Majd is using. When I did the Bimini twist I didn't do as many twists as suggested. I think I only did about 10. It is a little waxed, but totally different than the Riffe line. I have been using the figure 8 on this line for a year or so (maybe it's been a couple of years) and haven't had a problem, but I don't want to risk any problems either. I, however, do not use glue. Below is a side by side comparison of the Bimini twist and the figure 8 using the Aussie (Benthic) line. As you can see, even using less twists than suggested, the knot is much longer, but not too much thinner than the figure 8.

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Old 03-03-2017, 04:22 PM   #45
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Re: Crimping stiff spectra

Mono actually is a good shooting line for a few reasons. It's cheap, easy to source, easy to replace, readily comes in so many different diameters, comes in different stiffness (There's a big difference between a supple line line a Momoii and a more rigid line like a standard mono) and most importantly.. it shoots fast. Mono can snag, so can Braided lines. Where they differ is in the way they unravel. Same with Cable. Cable basically drops lower than the gun and moves as it's pulled out. Braided lines are similar in the way they move as they are pulled out. Mono has a tendency to move in big arcs and wavelengths and stay high in the same plane as the bands..so depending on the length of the gun and how the line is wrapped, that wavelength may lead to loops interacting with the bands, even temporarily throwing off a shot. Ever take a shot and you are like Damn.... how the heck did I miss that as the shaft misses the fish? Chances are you had a self resolving snag..

We've been developing a new Shooting line for a while now and should be bringing it to market within the very near future. I think it's the best of both worlds. Stronger than Mono, but without the kinking of braids. Spliceable, Crimpable, or Knotable.

Here's some raw video from Peter Tylor testing one of the earlier generations of this line. This line in the test had 650lb Breaking strength and measured @ 1.8mm so it's no surprise that it had more hydrodynamic resistance than 250lb mono. This is just raw video testing lines and wraps and how they might interact with thin bands. (thinner the bands more likely to have band tangles) You can see a mono band grab on one of the shots. It completely resolves itself but throws off the shot.

Can't say enough about the value of this kind of video analysis in development of new products. Thanks Heaps Peter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guyF...ature=youtu.be
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