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All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

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Old 09-02-2019, 06:57 PM   #1
Pancakes
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Doggies - can an inverted roller really cut the mustard??

I am about to buy a new purpose built doggie gun, but am starting to wonder about inverted rollers. I have resisted roller guns through their recent fashionable rise (I could see more negatives than positives) but I can see some merit in inverted rollers. But can they really match it on a bluewater gun?

I have shot doggies with 10mm shafts and while I think that is ideal it can be dangerous diving for doggies with a true 'cannon' in currents and deep water etc. So I have mostly been using 3 rubber 8mm shaft traditional setups on mid-sized timber guns. It works but less is never more with DT.

So I am looking at something more along the lines of a KOAH Bluewater gun (equivalent custom build) https://www.koahspearguns.com/bluewater-series.html

Surely none of the inverted rollers match it with a gun like this (or have I had my head in the sand for too long?!)

cheers in advance
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:08 PM   #2
popgun pete
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Re: Doggies - can an inverted roller really cut the mustard??

Probably depends on how much rubber is crammed on it and the reloading time. A three band standard gun is quick to reload and is a very simple gun, whereas with the inverted roller the gun has to be flipped around to pull all the bands up on their respective anchors. More rubber, more power, but rollerguns have some inefficiency which makes them less jerky shooters with all the extra parts moving through the water.
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Old 09-02-2019, 11:47 PM   #3
Diving Gecko
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Re: Doggies - can an inverted roller really cut the mustard??

Rollers, inverted rollers, pulley rollers and a combination of all three are definitely taking doggies these days. I have seen a fair bunch of guns like these in Indo and amongst a group of very good divers and builders, there's a push for them there these days.
I think you are very much on the right path already when you are linking it all to shaft mass/size. I think any gun that can fully power up an 8.5-9mm, +150cm shaft is a very capable gun for big doggies.
Now, here's the catch, I can't tell you exactly what config of rubber will get you that power as I am on a path to try to make airguns into bluewater guns, so though I have seen the DT rubber weapons and know that they work, I can't recall details of how they were set up.

That said, I have dived with guys using a variety of guns and once you get into a four banded gun, I think you loose much of the argument about how rollers may be more complicated to load and not simple enough. And if you are looking at that Koah, then perhaps look up Majd's work on pushing an Abellan Albacore 130 to its limits. I think you will be pleasantly surprised what a well set up three banded gun with a high handle, ergo grip and optimized rubber and shaft selection can do in terms of power.

My friend has an Albacore 130 and while there's no doubt that even in stock form, its a highly optimized and accurately shooting gun, personally I don't like how much it kicks. But then again, I am used to airguns which have very little recoil. I have only shot the Albacore a handful of times, but enough to know that I would really appreciate a gun with less recoil - even at the cost of simplicity.

Another point is, and you mention this already, diving for doggies can be hard work. Sometimes deep and often in strong currents. I would personally not like to dive with a gun any bigger and bulkier than it absolutely has to be. I am not huge and buff, I am just a medium sized dude, and I think the biggest gun I would ever want to dive with is something the size of the Albacore - but preferably even smaller.

As for the loading and the simplicity and speed of it - if you are on a boat with great boat guys and buddies you trust 100%, I think most doggie hunters keep their guns loaded between drops, though it's not talked about much... If you can't do that, then loading time does become a factor on 'currentey' drift dives where you want to get dropped as close to your spot as possible to increase the chances of the current taking you exactly where you want to be. But this gives you less time to breathe up and load.

Looking forward to more practical advice and less rambling from other, more experienced spearos here

Last edited by Diving Gecko; 09-03-2019 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 09-03-2019, 07:52 AM   #4
2fishin2
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Re: Doggies - can an inverted roller really cut the mustard??

I agree with everything Gecko said. Deeper dives in current. Not great places for large guns. Although I did shoot my largest DT 75kg with a 140

Although I do still have an Albacore 130, I have since "learned" to enjoy the benefits of the shorter inverted guns. I have a Roisub 115, Alemani 120 and Carbonia 115. Notice the shorter sizes I shoot 8.5 shafts on all of them and they can be configured with 9mm shafts.

These short guns have more stopping power and NO recoil. A real pleasure to shoot for sure. After shooting them, Ill never go back to long guns.
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Old 09-03-2019, 08:27 AM   #5
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Re: Doggies - can an inverted roller really cut the mustard??

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fishin2 View Post
I agree with everything Gecko said. Deeper dives in current. Not great places for large guns. Although I did shoot my largest DT 75kg with a 140

Although I do still have an Albacore 130, I have since "learned" to enjoy the benefits of the shorter inverted guns. I have a Roisub 115, Alemani 120 and Carbonia 115. Notice the shorter sizes I shoot 8.5 shafts on all of them and they can be configured with 9mm shafts.

These short guns have more stopping power and NO recoil. A real pleasure to shoot for sure. After shooting them, Ill never go back to long guns.
Was hoping you'd weigh in. Personally, since I am still at the beginning of my own DT hunting path I am very happy to hear your take on the advantage of shorter guns.
On that note, what spear lengths do you shoot on those three guns?

Last edited by Diving Gecko; 09-03-2019 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 09-03-2019, 10:43 AM   #6
2fishin2
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Re: Doggies - can an inverted roller really cut the mustard??

150's and 160's with double floppers for doggies. And for the naysayers....last year with my Roisub I put an 8mm shaft completely through the thickest part of a GT's head. I could have never done that with the same size double rubber gun, no possible way.

For the record also, I use Addiction shafts from Dean. There aren't any better custom made shafts anywhere, seriously. Only downside is you will pay for them. Hunt shafts are ok but, don't hold any water to Dean's welding creations.

And I don't buy this "reload" argument either. When you shoot and miss a fish, most of the time the rest scatter. Of course, on occasion, they might hang around but normally they are gone. Quicker reload is BS. I can't ever remember a time where I was able to reload after missing fish and then get a 2nd good shot off.

Are inverted rollers more difficult to load? For a person who has never actually shot one, probably. But after using them for a while they are absolutely not. People just get all caught up with all the moving parts and dont understand them....when they don't even own the gun.

Go to the internet sometime and watch Alemani or the Carbonia guys load the guns. You will see, not difficult at all.

So many of world class spearos have moved to the inverted style guns....and its not because big 3 band wood guns are better Not saying there isn't a place for them because there is.

Probably going to treat myself to Alemani travel gun sometime end of the year

Last edited by 2fishin2; 09-03-2019 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 09-03-2019, 11:01 AM   #7
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Re: Doggies - can an inverted roller really cut the mustard??

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fishin2 View Post
150's and 160's. And for the naysayers....last year with my Roisub I put an 8mm shaft completely through the thickest part of a GT's head. I could have never done that with the same size double rubber gun, no way.


And I don't buy this "reload" argument either. When you shoot and miss a fish, most of the time the rest scatter. Of course, on occasion, they might hang around but normally they are gone. Quicker reload is BS. I can't ever remember a time where I was able to reload after missing fish and then get a 2nd good shot off.

Are inverted rollers more difficult to load? For a person who has never actually shot one, probably. But after using them for a while they are absolutely not. People just get all caught up with all the moving parts and dont understand them....when they don't even own the gun.

Go to the internet sometime and watch Alemani or the Carbonia guys load the guns. You will see, not difficult at all.

So many of world class spearos have moved to the inverted style guns....and its not because big 3 band wood guns are better Not saying there isn't a place for them because there is.


Probably going to treat myself to Alemani travel gun sometime end of the year
Thanks for elaborating, it all makes sense to me. I always felt that if my love affair with pneumatics came to a halt, a pulley gun would somehow fit me, my personality and my diving preferences. I don't view them as complicated or difficult to load - and besides the lack of recoil, the sight line is great, too which is another thing I am used to from uncluttered pneumatics.

The airgun I brought on my most recent trip shot a 8mm x 145cm shaft which could be considered low in mass for DTs. But I think shaft speed is high out of my gun. I did shoot the whole shaft straight through the skull of a 20kg DT. That was a second shot on a friend's fish, but still not particularly close. My own catches were smaller but still shot straight through most of them - and it was not belly shots. I don't think I would have taken the shot on a huge fish, but had I seen a 30-40kg specimen, I feel like I would have had the power.
But for my next build I will aim for a gun that shoots an 8.5-9mm x 150cm shaft and be happy enough to take a shot if something really big comes my way.

Also, you really need proper shaft mass to carry the thicker and heavier shooting line needed for these fish. You guys have talked about that before and Majd's testing opened my eyes to it, but now I have personal experience, too;-). I am almost at the point where I would say that the set up and size equation could start there. Since DT often come close enough that you don't need a huge, huge gun - but you do need a certain shaft size and power to pull "heavy tackle" if you want to land the fish.

The part about fast loading was to do with what you could call "short drift diving". Some of the spots we dove on my latest Indo trip had currents that were not the easiest to read and were not slow either. So, in order to increase our chances at drifting to the exact (small) spot for the dive, we tried to get dropped as close as possible to the spot. But while more efficient, this approach also leaves you with very little time for loading and breathing up. I know it's a niche type of diving but that's when I realized that if we hadn't been able to keep the guns loaded on the boat between drops, loading time does become a factor.
My gun actually took a fair bit longer to load than my friend's three banded Albacore and that was too long for this type of diving. So, had I shot a fish on a previous dive and entered the boat unloaded, I had to ask the boat to drop us further up-current for the next one. Though we were all good friends on the boat, it kinda felt shitty. But I can get around that on the next build. Lesson learned

Apologies to the OP for the airgun talk - this thread was just a chance for me to pick 2fishin2's brain a bit to firm up my own ideas for the future.

Last edited by Diving Gecko; 09-03-2019 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 09-03-2019, 11:41 AM   #8
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Re: Doggies - can an inverted roller really cut the mustard??

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fishin2 View Post
150's and 160's with double floppers for doggies. [EDIT]
I might as well ask you here as I have seen it mentioned a few times that staggered double floppers do well, but haven't been able to picture why that is. I know you prefer to shoot the doggies very close to the head to be able to wrestle them a bit easier away from a downwards direction and that you don't like slip-tips (any longer?).
But what's the deal with the offset floppers? Why do they work? Is it the safety of having two "chances" if you get enough penetration and still having the one flopper if you don't get full penetration?

Last edited by Diving Gecko; 09-03-2019 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 09-03-2019, 12:30 PM   #9
Castronova
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Re: Doggies - can an inverted roller really cut the mustard??

This may not be applicable to this situation, I'm guessing you try to get in really good position and close to doggies before pulling the trigger but after buying the Alemanni 120 and testing it a bit I noticed one thing I didn't not think of... you are limited to close to 6m. There is less length of line because of the short gun stock and the line starts to pull tight and that can effect the shot at longer distances. Just something to think about.
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Old 09-03-2019, 08:32 PM   #10
Pancakes
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Re: Doggies - can an inverted roller really cut the mustard??

Thanks for the great feedback so far

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fishin2 View Post
These short guns have more stopping power
Is this merely your subjective experience? I accept that an inverted roller can throw a shaft faster, but it's generally a much shorter shaft, and ordinarily (but not always) thinner in diameter. It is that loss of mass that is critically of concern.

I am not concerned with:-

- Loading short rubbers (I've still got a little strength)
- Long guns (unwieldy and poor tracking)
- Fast reload (rarely an issue)
- Recoil
- 10m potshots (am not one of those guys)

I am concerned with

- Bulky guns (dangerous in challenging conditions)
- Drag resistance (pushing heavy tackle)
- And ultimately, punch power (think big fish with ridiculously thick heads at mid to short range)

I am no physicist but I would expect that the amount of additional speed required to make a 150cm shaft comparable to a 190cm shaft (same diameter), in terms of punch power on your typical shot, would have to be extraordinary.
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Old 09-03-2019, 09:31 PM   #11
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Re: Doggies - can an inverted roller really cut the mustard??

Shaft energy is mass of projectile x velocity squared when the shaft hits the fish. Longer shaft has a greater surface area and more drag from “skin friction”, but not a lot in it. Mass increase is proportional to shaft length.

190/150 is 1.27 or 27% increase in mass for the 190 cm shaft of the same diameter
KE 190 = x mass190 x v1 squared = KE 150 = x mass 150 x v2 squared, so what is v2?
Divide both sides by mass 150 and multiply by 2

We get KE = v1 squared x 1.27 = v2 squared x 1.0

Therefore v2 = sqrt (v1^2 x 1.27) = 1.125 x v1

1.266666 repeating, square root is 1.125463 rounded

This gun seems to do the job.

Last edited by popgun pete; 09-04-2019 at 01:46 AM. Reason: actual numbers
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Old 09-03-2019, 10:36 PM   #12
kavachi
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Re: Doggies - can an inverted roller really cut the mustard??

Some of the best dogtooth hunters in the world have moved to the big Alemanni rollers so they can use 10mm shafts without savage recoil. At somewhere north of four thousand dollars landed in Australia [and still have to get it out to the islands] for one gun, thats not a club i’m about to sign up for.

BUT I would love to have a try of one, on a longer shot on a 50kg+ dog, see why those guys have invested there. Those heavy shafts the Alemannis are throwing just have so much more stopping power than an 8.5mm

An Abellan Albacore with a really well-tuned recoil handle, grit grip, and three 15mm small ID bands at 380% pushing an 8.5mm shaft is one hell of an effective weapon for big dogtooth, and a helluva lot more compact and manouverable diving currents and dropoffs than big four or five band midhandled cannons.

My next build is Albacore-style three band for a 150 x 9.5mm Hunt Doggie shaft, working to get more manouverability without losing punch on those long shots. But alas its summer in Italy and those shafts are taking forever
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Old 09-03-2019, 10:49 PM   #13
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Re: Doggies - can an inverted roller really cut the mustard??

For me the double-offset-flopper shafts are just so much better for dogtooth

Having the whole shaft in the fish rather than just a slip tip makes a big difference in slowing that insane swimming power doggies possess.

I work bloody hard to get good holding shots on big dogs - have missed so many opportunities cos just wasnt quite close enough or couldnt see the head and shoulders and didnt take the shot. But inevitably I do end up with body shots sometimes, and the double offset floppers hold even when the doggie hits the end of the tuna board line and god knows how much shock load is on the gear. Have had sliptips rip thru doggies.

With a tuned-up Albacore and a close shot you can end up stringing a big dog, and in that case the whole shaft toggles like a giant sliptip, no way that is going to rip out. Downside is the shaft is going get seriously bent ; )

Lastly, no dicking around with setting sliptips whilst getting thrown around in rough weather

Last edited by kavachi; 09-03-2019 at 11:16 PM.
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Old 09-04-2019, 01:51 AM   #14
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Re: Doggies - can an inverted roller really cut the mustard??

I've seen many a doggie lost due to people taking long/poor 'prayer' shots (we all start there) but I've never seen a slip tip tear out on any well placed through-fish shot. I have landed my big doggies with slip tips and remain loyal to them, but their downside is that an incredible amount of force is required to fully penetrate a good fish with a slip tip. The upside is very few bent shafts. I can see the appeal of using double floppers but have never done so (I've had singles fail) although I can definitely see the appeal, undoubtedly they would work better on marginal shots and less powerful guns through better penetration alone. I can also see the benefit of the shaft remaining in contact with the fish, on certain shot angles.... mmmm lucky Christmas is around the corner.
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Old 09-04-2019, 04:48 AM   #15
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Re: Doggies - can an inverted roller really cut the mustard??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castronova View Post
This may not be applicable to this situation, I'm guessing you try to get in really good position and close to doggies before pulling the trigger but after buying the Alemanni 120 and testing it a bit I noticed one thing I didn't not think of... you are limited to close to 6m. There is less length of line because of the short gun stock and the line starts to pull tight and that can effect the shot at longer distances. Just something to think about.
Maybe a silly question, but can't you just put on another wrap? Or a part wrap using an offset line anchor further down the stock?
I run three wraps on my airguns to make up for their shorter size but I don't have bands to contend with in terms of risking band tangles.
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