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Old 11-19-2009, 02:49 AM   #1
Bretto
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60" Timber enclosed track gun in the making!

Hey all, thought I'd post up a new thread about the latest 60" mid handle project gun I'm going to be working on. It's going to be running a Riffe 8mm shaft with slip tip, Neptonics reef mech, ramsis or neptonic handle (undecided) and will probably be making a few bits and pieces along the way. Here is a few pics of the work done so far...

West Systems for laminating



In the clamps



All trimmed up ready to go



Delrin muzzle guards ready to go



This was my first attempt at making a enclosed track gun so i took it nice and easy and triple checked everything so i didn't mess it up! I started the track off by making about 3 small passes with a 1/4 flush bit to make it easier to run the ball bit through. Once i routed the enclosed section with the ball bit i then opened up about 2 inches at the front of the delrin to make it easy for the shaft to slide into the enclosed section... So far so good!





I also routed and chiseled out the mech slot to suit the Neptonics reef mech






Last edited by Bretto; 11-19-2009 at 03:30 AM.
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Old 11-19-2009, 08:14 AM   #2
Tin Man
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Re: 60" Timber enclosed track gun in the making!

Looks like another great build. In the first pic, it looks like you are scoring the mating surfaces? Are you then using filler with the epoxy? I think Wood Guy did some unscientific testing a while back and found that a smooth planed joint was stronger than one with rough saw marks, but I don't know how that would compare to a planed and scored surface. Not really my specialty, so I'm honestly curious.
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Old 11-19-2009, 11:55 AM   #3
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Re: 60" Timber enclosed track gun in the making!

The scientific testing (not conducted by me but rather reviewed by me in a trade publication not too long ago) found that when laminating oily woods, such as Teak, the method yielding the best results was to mill the wood smooth with a surface planer or hand plane, and then to lightly abrade the surface with sandpaper to give the adhesive more of a mechanical bond. Picture the surface magnified, all those minute scratches increase the surface area that is available for bonding.
I run all of my stock through a timesaver (wide belt sander) this accomplishes both things simultaneously and without tear out in difficult woods with roey grain.
Glue joints off the table saw, except in the rarest of circumstances, are not a good idea. The idea is to have two completely flat surfaces that mate together perfectly. To that end you need to watch out for snipe when surface planing. You can use a hand plane to remove the snipe after surfacing, alternatively you can leave all your stock long until after surfacing and then cut the snipe off. This usually requires around 3" per end.

As far as the Acetone is concerned, and if you are using it to clean the surface of the wood just prior to laminating; I have had bad results with this method in the past, as have a few of my peers. This was also one of the methods tested in the aforementioned study. They experienced a higher rate of failure with this method. One can only speculate as to why but I guess this is why experience is so expensive.

Wow that would have been easier to say than it was to type. I've gotta go to work now. I've got some oily wood to glue up.
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Old 11-19-2009, 01:37 PM   #4
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Re: 60" Timber enclosed track gun in the making!

Good info. I didn't sand smoother than the faster speed of my 2 speed planer gave me, and I've had good success with bonding at that speed (roughness?). I've never used the acetone- just wiped the excess dust off with a clean cloth. I've been able to avoid the sniping by taking a small cut and keeping the lams 5/16" minimum thickness. I do try to make the glue up 6" longer than I need, however, just in case.

In the unscientific testing jeff mentioned, I was unable to break the piece at the joint in every case if the surfaces were planed as described above, even when the wood was supported with welding clamps. Glued up pieces with saw marks could be broken at the glue joints. Seems pretty consistent with the scientific testing you referred to.

Can you provide a link to the article you mentioned?
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Old 11-19-2009, 01:58 PM   #5
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Re: 60" Timber enclosed track gun in the making!

Sorry. Honestly I'm not entirely certain where I read it, I get several trade publications. But I am fairly certain it was on paper and I read it on the throne because that's where all those magazines are kept.
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Old 11-19-2009, 02:09 PM   #6
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Re: 60" Timber enclosed track gun in the making!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post
Looks like another great build. In the first pic, it looks like you are scoring the mating surfaces? Are you then using filler with the epoxy? I think Wood Guy did some unscientific testing a while back and found that a smooth planed joint was stronger than one with rough saw marks, but I don't know how that would compare to a planed and scored surface. Not really my specialty, so I'm honestly curious.
Cheers Tin Man! Yeah mate i do use a West Systems filler mixed in with the epoxy. Be honest I'm not 100% sure which method is better for laminating, i have been told in the past from some experienced gun builders and boat builders that scoring and rubbing down with acetone was the way to go for getting a better bond but that could be totally wrong and I'm not sure how correct the information is. How ever i have done it on a few gun now and they seem to be holding up just as good.

Cheers,

Brett
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Old 11-19-2009, 02:21 PM   #7
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Re: 60" Timber enclosed track gun in the making!

Nice looking blank, Brett! If it ain't broke.....
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Old 11-19-2009, 02:45 PM   #8
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Re: 60" Timber enclosed track gun in the making!

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Nice looking blank, Brett! If it ain't broke.....
Thanks Bill! The delrin turned out great! Thanks for your help and advice with the timber/delrin enclosed track, it was all very helpful

Cheers,

Brett
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Old 11-19-2009, 07:11 PM   #9
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Re: 60" Timber enclosed track gun in the making!

How will you secure that delrin to the wood? Is it done the same way as a fully enclosed umhw track, a screw on the back end away from the muzzle?

Lookin' good by the way, as always.
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Old 11-19-2009, 07:11 PM   #10
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Re: 60" Timber enclosed track gun in the making!

Looks like you have another great gun underway. Can't wait to see how it turns out! Anytime I see the attention to detail that you have with your guns the expectations are pretty high! Cheers!
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Old 11-20-2009, 12:52 AM   #11
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Re: 60" Timber enclosed track gun in the making!

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Originally Posted by wrasselin View Post
How will you secure that delrin to the wood? Is it done the same way as a fully enclosed umhw track, a screw on the back end away from the muzzle?

Lookin' good by the way, as always.
Thanks wrasselin! I will be securing the delrin as you have mentioned with a screw at the back end of the delrin
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Old 11-20-2009, 10:59 PM   #12
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Re: 60" Timber enclosed track gun in the making!

I stayed up late last night working on the gun and managed to do a little more work on it today. I have drilled and pinned the Neptonics reef mech into place and also drilled and put a temporary set screw in place so i could fit the line release till i get some 1/8 stainless roundbar pin.







The delrin muzzle guard is a very tight snug fit but i still fixed it into place by countersinking a stainless screw just under the enclosed track to prevent any movement





I also glued a section of teak horizontally under the back end of the gun, i needed to do this to allow for the push rod set up, to give me a bigger surface area for the butt section and for more surface area if i decide to use another set of inlays on this gun. I was origanally going to run a horizontal piece the full length of the gun but would of ended up to bulky for this particular gun I'm building. Should look really nice once it's shaped and i route the edges.





I'll pull it out of the clamps in a couple days and progress with it all

Cheers,

Brett
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Old 11-21-2009, 12:25 AM   #13
Wood Guy
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Re: 60" Timber enclosed track gun in the making!

Lookin' good! Do you plan to rig this gun with just the shooting line, or with a reel or float line?

Why are you going to use a 1/8" pin instead of the set screw? It seems like the only bending force on the set screw would come from the bungie on the shooting line, which I wouldn't think would be all that much. What am I missing? Have you or others had problems with the set screw bending or tearing out?
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Old 11-21-2009, 02:04 AM   #14
Bretto
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Re: 60" Timber enclosed track gun in the making!

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Originally Posted by Wood Guy View Post
Lookin' good! Do you plan to rig this gun with just the shooting line, or with a reel or float line?

Why are you going to use a 1/8" pin instead of the set screw? It seems like the only bending force on the set screw would come from the bungie on the shooting line, which I wouldn't think would be all that much. What am I missing? Have you or others had problems with the set screw bending or tearing out?
Thanks Bill! It will be rigged for a float line set up and break away set up, depending on the area i will be diving at the time.

No not bending or tearing out but from what i have read in my previous gun build thread a few people mentioned that they have had some troubles in the past with the set screw stripping out which makes it a pain in the arse to get out if need be.

I have to admit though the set screw does have a nice clean finish!
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Old 11-21-2009, 12:31 PM   #15
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Re: 60" Timber enclosed track gun in the making!

I guess they are referring to the hex socket which, since it's so small, could strip fairly easily if it hit the tab or the pilot hole was too tight. In that case the threads could make it hard to drive out, even if the hole was drilled all the way through.

I've got some 0.1" spring stainless that I use for solid wire wishbones that would work great for a pin if you're still looking for something.
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