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Old 10-29-2018, 04:33 PM   #76
Xylophone
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Re: Trigger safeties: To have or not to have

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Originally Posted by popgun pete View Post
Why such a personal comment? I had hoped for intelligent and thoughtful debate leavened by experience, not personal put downs or slurs. Many of us here have decades of spearfishing experience, even in the most adverse of circumstances re surface conditions and at times gun control can be lost, even with the best of intentions, but effort is always expended to regain it.
Whether shooting or diving, muzzle control should be #1. Sorry, but if you are getting so caught up in helping your buddy handle a fish that you aren't aware of where your spear is pointing I don't want to be within the range of that gun. It's basic hunter's safety that you learn when you're 10. You never point any kind of gun at something you aren't ready to kill. Is it ok to muzzle sweep your buddy with a shotgun while dove hunting because the safety is on?
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Old 10-29-2018, 05:57 PM   #77
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Re: Trigger safeties: To have or not to have

Here is an example of a well-engineered safety on the "Ocean Rhino" speargun. Note that when engaged the trigger is totally immobilized and yet the safety cannot be applied if the trigger mechanism is not locked. The actuating safety lever or knob is positioned on both sides of the gun and has a positive action so that you cannot flip it on or off by accident.

This is a review I wrote on it after I had examined a gun.

Just examined the safety on the "Ocean Rhino" speargun. A highly visible red lever on either side of the rear handle section allows you to swing a blocking cam in behind the trigger and this impacts at about mid-lever length on the rear of the trigger arm, so it blocks any further motion as any trigger pull will push the cam down, but a small step at the interacting faces halts any further relative movement between the two components.

A good feature is the safety is positioned away from where you can easily activate it like a light switch, surely the cause of many safety complaints as divers have unintentionally left it on at the wrong moment. Operation of the safety should not be confused with safe operation of the gun, the latter is entirely up to the diver and his alertness to dangerous situations developing where a gun should be immediately debanded to remove any possibility of a shot.

I guess it depends on your philosophy, my gun is always ready to shoot once I have cocked it, I don't use the safety except during loading, line wrapping and rig checking, and only then as a precaution, not a guarantee. Some divers swim with the safety "on" until the moment they see something to shoot. This is aided and abetted by "light switch" quick flick safeties rapidly activated by the trigger finger, but I believe the safety application/release should be more of a deliberate and planned act, not a spur of the moment decision as the underwater situation rapidly changes. Evidently the "Ocean Rhino" safety's placement on the grip handle is of the "deliberate act" line of thinking, not the rapid "will I or won't I" action switch whose exact status ("on" or "off") is often forgotten in the heat of the moment. They also encourage a false notion of "safety". On some guns (no names, no pack drill) the safety pushes the trigger mech to full lock, so remove it at your peril! Being a cam lock trigger the "Ocean Rhino" locks without such assistance.
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Last edited by popgun pete; 10-31-2018 at 12:19 AM. Reason: added note to photo of safety cam engaged trigger
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Old 10-29-2018, 07:45 PM   #78
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Re: Trigger safeties: To have or not to have

Quote:
Originally Posted by popgun pete View Post
Here is an example of a well-engineered safety on the "Ocean Rhino" speargun. Note that when engaged the trigger is totally immobilized and yet the safety cannot be applied if the trigger mechanism is not locked. The actuating safety lever or knob is positioned on both sides of the gun and has a positive action so that you cannot flip it on or off by accident.

This is a review I wrote on it after I had examined a gun.

Just examined the safety on the "Ocean Rhino" speargun. A highly visible red lever on either side of the rear handle section allows you to swing a blocking cam in behind the trigger and this impacts at about mid-lever length on the rear of the trigger arm, so it blocks any further motion as any trigger pull will push the cam down, but a small step at the interacting faces halts any further relative movement between the two components.

A good feature is the safety is positioned away from where you can easily activate it like a light switch, surely the cauvse of many safety complaints as divers have unintentionally left it on at the wrong moment. Operation of the safety should not be confused with safe operation of the gun, the latter is entirely up to the diver and his alertness to dangerous situations developing where a gun should be immediately debanded to remove any possibility of a shot.

I guess it depends on your philosophy, my gun is always ready to shoot once I have cocked it, I don't use the safety except during loading, line wrapping and rig checking, and only then as a precaution, not a guarantee. Some divers swim with the safety "on" until the moment they see something to shoot. This is aided and abetted by "light switch" quick flick safeties rapidly activated by the trigger finger, but I believe the safety application/release should be more of a deliberate and planned act, not a spur of the moment decision as the underwater situation rapidly changes. Evidently the "Ocean Rhino" safety's placement on the grip handle is of the "deliberate act" line of thinking, not the rapid "will I or won't I" action switch whose exact status ("on" or "off") is often forgotten in the heat of the moment. They also encourage a false notion of "safety". On some guns (no names, no pack drill) the safety pushes the trigger mech to full lock, so remove it at your peril! Being a cam lock trigger the "Ocean Rhino" locks without such assistance.
Hey Pete, thanks for the positive comments on the Ocean Rhino safety design. When we were designing the new Ocean Rhino Speargun back in 2008/2009 I was determined to finally design a speargun with a safety that was effective, reliable, and user friendly. Based on your above comments and almost 10 years of positive consumer experience, I feel we have achieved our design objectives.

Prior to introducing the Ocean Rhino Speargun in May of 2009, I had mostly used Sea Hornet/Biller triggers in my spearguns. I was also the North American distributor for Sea Hornet spearguns from 1999 thru late 2008. As a result, I am extremely familiar with Sea Hornet style triggers and their design.

The safety on the Sea Hornet had a light gauge compression spring that supplied tension on the safety knob and cam. From my experience this compression spring was a little undersized and did not apply sufficient pressure to keep the safety in the selected position. This created issues because the safety would sometimes rotate to the “on or off” safety position without the user being aware of the rotation. Some users felt the best solution was to just remove the safety and many did. I asked Glen Preece to increase the spring tension on the safety when I was the USA distributor but my request was never acted upon. Its not that the Sea Hornet safety was a bad design, it just needed to be tweaked a little to make it perform more reliably. The Biller safety is essentially the same as a Sea Hornet but they use a much stronger spring and their safety lever/knob is lower profile so their safety tends to stay in place better than the Sea Hornet did. Unfortunately there are many speargun brands out there that have unreliable safety designs or designs that are not user friendly. When safeties do not perform as intended, the end users often tamper with them in an effort to “fix” them (which often makes things worse) or they simply remove them if the design allows for that.

As Pete points out in his review above, we have solved all of these issues with the Ocean Rhino safety design. We actually have a hidden feature on our safety that most users are unaware of. This feature is: the tension on the safety knob/cam is “tension adjustable”. The left side screw on the safety lever can be tightened or loosened to adjust the amount of pressure it takes to rotate the safety levers. Pete, did I ever mention this feature to you before?
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Last edited by Spear One; 10-30-2018 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 10-30-2018, 06:53 PM   #79
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Re: Trigger safeties: To have or not to have

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Originally Posted by Spear One View Post
Hey Pete, thanks for the positive comments on the Ocean Rhino safety design. When we were designing the new Ocean Rhino Speargun back in 2008/2009 I was determined to finally design a speargun with a safety that was effective, reliable, and user friendly. Based on your above comments and almost 10 years of positive consumer experience, I feel we have achieved our design objectives.

Prior to introducing the Ocean Rhino Speargun in May of 2009, I had mostly used Sea Hornet/Biller triggers in my spearguns. I was also the North American distributor for Sea Hornet spearguns from 1999 thru late 2008. As a result, I am extremely familiar with Sea Hornet style triggers and their design.

The safety on the Sea Hornet had a light gauge compression spring that supplied tension on the safety knob and cam. From my experience this compression spring was a little undersized and did not apply sufficient pressure to keep the safety in the selected position. This created issues because the safety would sometimes rotate to the “on or off” safety position without the user being aware of the rotation. Some users felt the best solution was to just remove the safety and many did. I asked Glen Preece to increase the spring tension on the safety when I was the USA distributor but my request was never acted upon. Its not that the Sea Hornet safety was a bad design, it just needed to be tweaked a little to make it perform more reliably. The Biller safety is essentially the same as a Sea Hornet but they use a much stronger spring and their safety lever/knob is lower profile so their safety tends to stay in place better than the Sea Hornet did. Unfortunately there are many speargun brands out there that have unreliable safety designs or designs that are not user friendly. When safeties do not perform as intended, the end users often tamper with them in an effort to “fix” them (which often makes things worse) or they simply remove them if the design allows for that.

As Pete points out in his review above, we have solved all of these issues with the Ocean Rhino safety design. We actually have a hidden feature on our safety that most users are unaware of. This feature is: the tension on the safety knob/cam is “tension adjustable”. The left side screw on the safety lever can be tightened or loosened to adjust the amount of pressure it takes to rotate the safety levers. Pete, did I ever mention this feature to you before?
Yes Kevin you did and for anyone wondering how this adjustment works it increases pressure on the "O" ring used as a friction element in the safety knob base; this photo from your site shows the position of this "O" ring. Actually the friction tweaking adjustment arrow is shown here on the wrong side, I had no room to put it on the left hand side of the photo, but everyone should get the general idea.

You have hit the nail on the head re safeties, the main problem is many are an afterthought and not engineered to do the job, yet it is not difficult to do it properly if the safety design is part and parcel of the trigger design and adequately tested. This then can be communicated to the users who can then understand what the safety actually does and how it works.
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Last edited by popgun pete; 10-30-2018 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 10-30-2018, 06:58 PM   #80
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Re: Trigger safeties: To have or not to have

Thanks Pete, I did neglect to mention how the tension adjustment actually worked.
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Old 11-18-2018, 06:07 AM   #81
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Re: Trigger safeties: To have or not to have

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One type of speargun where the safety is of no assistance in checking the mechanism for proper operation is the pneumatic guns with the tipping "see-saw" type sear lever (which is most of them). There the trigger only pushes the sear lever over to shoot, it does not hold it back, there is no interlocking action of the trigger with the sear lever. The same could be said for remote trigger guns, unless the push/pull rod is hard linked to the components at either end, such as in the "Ultimate" bullpup guns (the pull rod is "all thread" with clevis pins at each end connecting the components). However by being drilled into developing a "safety habit", even with a pneumatic gun, I never forget to methodically engage the safety and then remove it once the hunt was on.
They say a picture is worth a thousand words, so here are the "Ultimate Double" internal parts. The lower trigger has a cylindrical transverse slide safety to positively lock it out and the upper trigger has a protruding cam that you squeeze against the handle frame in order to pull the upper trigger back and shoot. The hooking action lower trigger is somewhat problematic, so a good safety there is essential.
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Old 02-25-2019, 05:49 PM   #82
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Re: Trigger safeties: To have or not to have

Ultimately if we have accidents where guns have discharged through negligence or operator stupidity, or a combination of both, then regulators and legislators will come looking to decide the future of our sport. We have had up until now a pretty free hand as few other classes of weapons allow them to be home-made and untested and carried in public on a beach or environs. This could all come to an abrupt end if we had a well-publicized incident where the haters of spearfishing and hunting in general decided to mount a grand campaign on protecting public safety, the environment and all life on Earth as we know it by eliminating the speargun. Sounds over the top, but I can assure you those people are out there and will look for any opportunity to prosecute their case.

A speargun safety does not guarantee that there will not be accidents and does not absolve the user from personal responsibility, but it makes a statement about the sport to regulate itself. If we do not do it then you can be certain others will.

Hyper-ventilators and hysteric types nearly wiped spearfishing out in the very beginning in some locations and fortunately in those days there was no social media and the person making the final decision said the naysayers were wrong, the sport was staying and that was that and anyone else claiming anything different could just pull their head in. Today it would not be that simple.
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Old 02-25-2019, 06:08 PM   #83
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Re: Trigger safeties: To have or not to have

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Originally Posted by popgun pete View Post
Ultimately if we have accidents where guns have discharged through negligence or operator stupidity, or a combination of both, then regulators and legislators will come looking to decide the future of our sport. We have had up until now a pretty free hand as few other classes of weapons allow them to be home-made and untested and carried in public on a beach or environs. This could all come to an abrupt end if we had a well-publicized incident where the haters of spearfishing and hunting in general decided to mount a grand campaign on protecting public safety, the environment and all life on Earth as we know it by eliminating the speargun. Sounds over the top, but I can assure you those people are out there and will look for any opportunity to prosecute their case. A speargun safety does not guarantee that there will not be accidents and does not absolve the user from personal responsibility, but it makes a statement about the sport to regulate itself. If we do not do it then you can be certain others will.Hyper-ventilators and hysteric types nearly wiped spearfishing out in the very beginning in some locations and fortunately in those days there was no social media and the person making the final decision said the naysayers were wrong, the sport was staying and that was that and anyone else claiming anything different could just pull their head in. Today it would not be that simple.
There several groups out there that absolutely hate spearfishing and/or harvesting of fish period. Their long term goal is to eliminate or greatly reduce the harvest of the worlds oceans. They know they cannot attain their goal in one fell swoop. However, they know if they keep chopping away, regardless of how small each chop is, they will likely end up attaing their goal. Eliminating or greatly restricting gear types is a tactic they often use. Never underestimate how opportunistic these groups can be. You open the door, even just a crack, and they will will do anything and everything they can to take full advantage of it.
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Old 02-25-2019, 08:23 PM   #84
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Re: Trigger safeties: To have or not to have

Thanks Kevin. Now those who remove their safeties from their guns may realize that in doing so they may be putting all the rest of us "in the gun" so to speak, when prosecuting counsels start asking probing questions at an inquest for them to defend their actions. Not very likely you may say, well once will be more than enough!
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Old 02-26-2019, 08:11 AM   #85
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Re: Trigger safeties: To have or not to have

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Thanks Kevin. Now those who remove their safeties from their guns may realize that in doing so they may be putting all the rest of us "in the gun" so to speak, when prosecuting counsels start asking probing questions at an inquest for them to defend their actions. Not very likely you may say, well once will be more than enough!
Cant remove what you never put in in the first place!
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Old 02-26-2019, 02:29 PM   #86
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Re: Trigger safeties: To have or not to have

Having been in court a couple of times I have watched counsel turn the most confident of types into very nervous subjects as the shallow self-serving reasons for their actions have been methodically demolished. Believe me "safeties cost fish" will not cut it with the Jury especially when the Judge chimes in and makes you look very foolish. If in doubt on this one then just ask Jay Riffe! He will soon tell you why all his guns have a safety mechanism that works.

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Old 02-26-2019, 02:45 PM   #87
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Re: Trigger safeties: To have or not to have

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If in doubt on this one then just ask Jay Riffe! He will soon tell you why all his guns have a safety mechanism that works.


Canít say I heard that story. Hopefully I donít end up in that position.


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Old 02-26-2019, 02:50 PM   #88
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Re: Trigger safeties: To have or not to have

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Canít say I heard that story. Hopefully I donít end up in that position.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Just search the Web and you will find it, from memory it was along the lines of someone stoning their instructor by shooting him in the back. Paralyzed as a result, big dollars were at stake, very big dollars that could wipe a business right off the map!
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Old 02-26-2019, 02:58 PM   #89
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Re: Trigger safeties: To have or not to have

Damn that sucks for all involved
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Old 02-26-2019, 03:23 PM   #90
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Re: Trigger safeties: To have or not to have

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Just search the Web and you will find it, from memory it was along the lines of someone stoning their instructor by shooting him in the back. Paralyzed as a result, big dollars were at stake, very big dollars that could wipe a business right off the map!


I canít find anything on this
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