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All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here! |
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09-05-2003, 02:36 PM | #1 |
Dive Instructor & Captain
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Isles of Capri, FL
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Daryl Wong's Words (on the MG Special)
There has been a lot of talk about this new gun being capable of doing it all, and it probably comes closer than most ever could, but...
Read Darly's comments below: "Of the guns available for the Florida area, I think this would be one of the most versatile guns to have simply because it can be free shafted, lined shafted, and used with a reel if wanted." "You can load up to six 9/16 bands in the aluminum muzzle or just use it with two or three. The problem with loading more than three bands would be dealing with the recoil. It is not internally ballasted like the blue water guns so loading up on bands could affect the accuracy." "If the divers want to load up on the bands, then I would recommend the Mahi gun which is the same length as the MG special. Its listed as 55in but it is actually the same stock length as the MG Special gun." Daryl Wong
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Capt Chad Carney Please No PMs Text my cell 727-423-7775 or e-mail chad.carney@yahoo.com www.floridaskindiver.com - 35+ Years Instructing Freediving, Scuba, Tech & Spearfishing Located in Isles of Capri, FL Charters for Spearfishing, Wrecks & Reefs in SW Florida |
09-05-2003, 03:56 PM | #2 |
Retired Comm. Shooter
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Largo, Florida
Posts: 5,138
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Chad, why would you want to put three bands on a freeshaft? Doesn't the accuracy diminish as you add bands? Is distance the only real benefit to this? Won't three bands cause excessive shear and damage to the barb and pin as well as quickly blunting the point when you shoot it into the rocks?
I have always felt that the greatest advantage to freeshafting (other than no line) came from the simplicity of one band, very accurate, quick repetition shooting. Triple the band cost as well!
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Ocean Rhino Spearguns: Designed & Built By Commercial Spearfishermen Manufactured By: Spearfishing Specialties (727)-548-7686 E-mail: oceanrhino@gmail.com Web: OceanRhino.com |
09-05-2003, 04:06 PM | #3 |
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Location: thinking of JLB
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Kind of throws the whole speed of the quiver out the window, when you are forced to load the gun by sticking the shaft in the small whole in the muzzle. No more reloading before you look to see where the first shaft went. Beautiful gun, but I don't see how the benefits out weight the negatives for a reef gun. For a single fish and a single shot I'm sure it would be great, but on the reef?
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Brian C. Seeman Just happened to be in the right place at the right time. |
09-05-2003, 04:15 PM | #4 |
Spearboard Historian
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Boca Raton
Age: 62
Posts: 4,391
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I don't think that it designed to be a production gun (capable of shooting many fish quickly). It's designed more as a highly accurate tool to take a few select fish. I think that the 3 or more band comments may have been prompted more by Iya's input and questions than anyone considering freeshafting with that many bands. A different tool for a different purpose. I doubt that it would replace a gun like the Commercial in the Middlegrounds unless you are using it just to trophy hunt. It probably has more East Coast practical applications and may replace more Riffes and Billers here.
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09-05-2003, 05:08 PM | #5 |
Dive Instructor & Captain
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Isles of Capri, FL
Posts: 3,031
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MGS
Guys,
You can speculate all you want to, but since this weekend is out for diving, I'll reserve all judgement until I shoot the gun! What I do know is I have two 5/8" x (24", I think) bands, not 9/16", and hip loading each of these bands to the second pin is all that I can do. A lot of guys can't hip load it at all. It feels about like taking my 52 Seahornet back to it's second notch with a 3/4" x 26" band. (FYI that's a lot stronger than a 22" x 5/8" band on the same gun.) As far as speed loading, I just tried the MGS in my living room. It took about 6 to 7 seconds to load the empty gun with a spear and cock one band to the second pin. I can't do it by feel yet, but that'll come as I get to know her a little better. I usually load my SH in 4 to 5 seconds and can do it in the dark, or more importantly while I'm looking at the next fish, but I've had that gun longer than my wife of 19 years! I'll keep you posted on it's performance. Chad
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Capt Chad Carney Please No PMs Text my cell 727-423-7775 or e-mail chad.carney@yahoo.com www.floridaskindiver.com - 35+ Years Instructing Freediving, Scuba, Tech & Spearfishing Located in Isles of Capri, FL Charters for Spearfishing, Wrecks & Reefs in SW Florida Last edited by Chad Carney; 09-05-2003 at 10:52 PM. |
09-05-2003, 09:56 PM | #6 |
Registered User
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The gun will not loose accuracy because you can increase the power linearly and have no whipping because of the enclosed track. There are pluses and minuses depending on who you are and what you sell. There is no way that a one band gun will get you the same distance that 3 bands will. Accuracy wise, there is nothing better than an enclosed track as the shaft must come out completely straight. To take a 20 foot shot, give me a 3 band enclosed track any day. One band and 5/16 shaft???? not very long shots which are sometimes needed. On the enclosed track you can load one, two or three bands depending on what you see. The shaft tip will only take a beating if you shoot with three bands into a rock......why would you??? The main thing about the enclosed track is its accuracy and the fact that you have very little recoil so powering up the gun for a long shot is never an issue. However if i am hunting holes, I would only load one band and now I have the same as a sea hornet with a much smoother, quiter and balanced gun. I will never understand how this gun would be considered a replacement for a riffe or biller but not a sea hornet??? The riffe is a much better gun and much quieter too. I have used the Daryl wong Mahi with 1, 2 3, and four bands. Nothing like being able to power up when you need to and still have the ability to shoot into a hole or rocks with extreme silence and accuracy. But then again, if youre shooting one band youre shooting from very close range which is the most correct way to spearfish. In Miami, we sometimes get lucky and get close to fish but the majority of the time, youre looking at 20 foot shots if you are going to land a grouper thats not holed up.
I spoke to Jay Riffe about his gun and he feels his gun (biased) would outperform any other gun under the same circumstances. A Riffe or Daryl Wong will shoot and reload just as quickly as any other gun provided you are using the same amount of bands. The fact that is has an enclosed track will never, ever cause you delay once you get used to loading the gun. I typically grab the shaft by the middle and it just drops right in. 4 or 5 second reload time. It doesnt get much better than that. my .02
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09-05-2003, 11:02 PM | #7 |
Bubble Pack Junkie
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Spearboard, Dummy!
Age: 68
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JC............The Southern Open is the perfect opportunity to bring all your guns over and knock the snot out of us SS, Sea Hornet, and Biller users. You will even have a chance to whip up on the SS gun St Pete Open winners. Can we count on ya?
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09-06-2003, 12:19 AM | #8 | |
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Location: Boca Raton
Age: 62
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Quote:
The Wong would certainly compete with the lineshaft Riffe that currently meets my needs for lineshafting on the East coast. From your comments, I would suspect that they are amore accurate tool for this purpose. When I go to the Middlegrounds, my Riffe is a backup gun to my Commercial guns. I do not drop on a spot with my Riffe unless I expect to shoot one or two trophy fish. Otherwise, I use my Commercial (sea hornet) so that I can reload more quickly, freeshaft (although I now understand that this can also be done with a Riffe) and also carry a spare shaft or two. Unless the Wong can be modified to carry more than one shaft and can quickly be converted to a line gun when necessary (as the SS gun can), I don't see it as a replacement for the sea hornet (SS) gun in the Middlegrounds because it is not as versaitile a tool. Different guns for different purposes. I just think that the Wong will replace more guns that I would otherwise use on the East Coast (Riffe and Biller) than the sea hornet (SS ) gun that I would otherwise use on the West Florida Coast. No offense to you or certainly Mr.Wong. That is all that I meant. Hope to see you at the Southern Open! |
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09-06-2003, 01:47 AM | #9 |
Dive Instructor & Captain
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Isles of Capri, FL
Posts: 3,031
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Middle Grounds Special
Wow, I'm amazed at how many of you think you can guess what this gun can do and can't do just by hearing about it, from the descriptions of others who shot something else!
I've shot Seahornets from Biller and SS, Riffes, JBLs and bunch of other guns we don't need to drag into this, and it comes down to this...with a freeshaft and in the hands of an experienced freeshaft shooter every one of them can take down a lot of bottom fish, of all sizes, in a very short period of time, just about anywhere in Florida! I know that the Wong "Middle Grounds Special" will be no exception because I can shoot it with a single strong band the same way I have all the others. The MGS was designed to be a freeshaft gun for the Grounds and deeper, where you can still run into 50 to 80 lbs groupers, fast mutton or red snappers, schools of 8 to 10 lbs mangroves, or a pack of 20 to 30 lbs gags. (I won't speculate about the advantages of enclosed tracks and multiple bands until I've shot it. Those features will be great if they can make for longer shots when you really need them on big spooky fish.) I can load it up with shaft and light holders but I'll start out without them and see how it shoots first. I may get another one pretty soon and leave it rigged as a line gun. Thats the way I like to pack. As far as it being better as an East coast gun? That makes little sense. Most of the Wong reef guns that are being shot over there are 48 to 50 inches with 9/32" shafts for agility and quickness for the generally smaller fish that frequent that coast. (Except in deep water, during cold water upwellings and in the late Fall, Winter and Early Spring.) Those guns can shoot pretty big fish too, but I know 9/32" shafts were not strong enough or heavy enough for me in the Grounds and deeper waters of the Gulf, Marquesas and Tortugas. When I dove scuba on the rigs the last two years, both of my Seahornet line guns, (one Biller and one Australian or SS) where out of their league trying to make longshots for spooky red snapper and groupers. Most of those guys out there have switched to Riffes and some are now going to Wongs. While freediving in bluewater that's also almost all you see. I look forward to finally having a powerful accurate gun for those trips. But as Daryl said this is not a gun to load up 5 big bands for tuna, but it will probably be fine with three. It's a damn shame the weather's so bad, but it'll have to wait! Chad
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Capt Chad Carney Please No PMs Text my cell 727-423-7775 or e-mail chad.carney@yahoo.com www.floridaskindiver.com - 35+ Years Instructing Freediving, Scuba, Tech & Spearfishing Located in Isles of Capri, FL Charters for Spearfishing, Wrecks & Reefs in SW Florida Last edited by Chad Carney; 09-06-2003 at 01:51 AM. |
09-06-2003, 08:03 AM | #10 |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Pompano Beach
Posts: 746
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Chad, very well said. I think you are going to be absolutely astonished when you try your new “MG”. Too bad everyone couldn’t get a chance to try your gun.
Another beauty of the Wong gun is that they are custom. We all have our style of diving. What works for us, may not work for others. We dive in different areas, have different conditions, different objectives, and so on. Wong can make a gun for your needs. I do a lot of diving, 5 days a week weather permitting. So time-to-time, I change up the type of hunting I do. I’ll end up with 3 Wong guns, the 50” rear-handle plus, my custom 45” I just ordered, and a “MG” when I can afford one, only difference will be that I will most likely have the “MG” negatively weighted. Another point, line shafting with a Wong gun does not affect accuracy as it does with production guns. However, it still slows you down reloading. I guess the bottom line is whether you’re on the east coast, west coast, need a big gun, small gun, line shaft, free shaft, 1 band, 2 bands, 3 bands, or more, Daryl can make the perfect gun for you! Dave |
09-06-2003, 08:15 AM | #11 |
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Tampa, Florida
Age: 54
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Hey Chad,
Can I try your gun next week |
09-06-2003, 08:46 AM | #12 |
Retired Comm. Shooter
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Largo, Florida
Posts: 5,138
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Hey guys, I did not make any reference in my questions as to any particular brand of gun or how it may or may not be capable of performing. I'm not rying to start a "brand" debate here. My questions were specifically directed at a style of shooting (freeshaft), logistics, rigging, and practical application.
I understand the 3 band freeshaft idea in principle, but very long shots in really deep water (180ft or more) are not a high % shot. These long shots will usually result in poor shot angle, and or, less than optimal shot placement. Poor angle and shot placement on a big fish will usually result in frequent "shaft tear outs". Add excessive depth to this, and you have serious issues to deal with. The most effective way to stop a big fish with a freeshaft is to stick the shaft in the fish in a manner that will best impede his ability to swim or fight back. When freeshafting big fish you are really hoping for one of two things to happen after you hit the fish with shaft. 1) You stone him! 2) He immediatly rocks up! Either way, you now have a very good chance of getting the fish. Long shots with poor shot placement greatly reduce the chances of either #1 or #2 occuring. No matter how accurate a gun is, it is only as accurate as the person shooting it. There is no right or wrong in this debate, it simply boils down to matching the right equipment to the demands of that particular dive. As we spread the "art of freeshafting" out to other areas of Florida, as well as the rest of the world, it is important to make sure that everyone reading about this new style of spearfishing, understand that there can be just as many "sub styles" to freeshafting as there are different styles of lineshafting. These different styles have evolved due to different laws, fish varieties, and diverse waters around the world. There is simply no "one gun" that is going to fill all these needs. This thread is a perfect example of what is right about Spearboard. This exchange of information from experienced shooters is what the new or lesser experienced spearfisherman need and want to hear. There has never been a "mass media" availability of this type of information (other than a few books) before Spearboard came along. Even though I manufacture and distribute spearguns, I do not try to sell or promote our products in my posts. However, I will respond to specific questions from members pertaining to a particular product. I prefer it this way because the message or information contained in a thread may be lost if there is selling or advertising contained in a post. The post will also lose it's objectivity. I much prefer to let customer feedback, positive or negative, be the focus. I have quite a bit of spearfishing experience in practical application as well as speargun building and rigging. However, my experience has been restricted to the guns that I build and the area I gained my experience in. I have limited knowledge about multiple band spearguns and the waters they are used in. Because of this, I will sometimes ask a question just as any other member would. I'm not tying to start a heated debate, I'm just trying to gain knowledge. Isn't that the primary function of Spearboard? IMHO, it is the diversity of Spearboards members that make it useful and strong. Experience, knowledge, technique, and technology are usesless if you do not share it. Spearboard has given spearfisherman a great voice, lets try to keep it singing "on key".
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Ocean Rhino Spearguns: Designed & Built By Commercial Spearfishermen Manufactured By: Spearfishing Specialties (727)-548-7686 E-mail: oceanrhino@gmail.com Web: OceanRhino.com Last edited by Spear One; 09-06-2003 at 02:28 PM. |
09-06-2003, 10:33 AM | #13 |
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Hey I applaud spear one and chad for their comments. they are obviously correct in each of their comments. A lot of shooters here can excahnge ideas and mutually learn from each other in the process. There should be no brand debate. Daryl wong is a good friend and I love his guns, however, I think chad is more equiped to answer issues about the middle ground type hunting as is spearone due to his knowledge of his product. It is threads like this where I am in tune to other experienced shooters that I learn the most. I want to clarify that I may have come accross as a brash person but I am not better than anyone and I dont think anyone is better than me. Just a healthy competitive spirit. However, i am not going to sit here and argue with spearone who has daily experience with his product s and knows its strtengths and weaknesses better than anyone since it is his product and I do like many of the things the ss guns have. I also would not argue about the type of hunting in the middle grounds with chad since i know the guy by reputation and after 25 years out there he must know the fish by name. I will never argue with anyone that has more experience than I do on a particular subject. I simply try to learn from them in order to become better.
Screenname, I will certainly try to make it but would like to go with someone who knows the area as I have no local knowledge. I am not interested in beating anyone, I am interested in competing for sure but that does not mean I am out to prove I am better or that my guns are better than anyone else's . I will tell you pure and simple what my father and grandfather taught me about spearfishing....... Sometimes its the indian and not the arrow that leads to success. But on any given day, anyone can beat anyone and if you dont know that by now, then this would be the wrong conversation to have. I have been in tournaments where I thought I would win hands down only to have someone at the last minute show up with a monster fish. It happens as this sport is very much, knowledge, experience, and lots of LUCK!!!! However, with that said, I am defitnitely going to try to make it and if you have a place for me in your boat I am in. I am sure I will learn a lot from you guys because the hunting you do is so different than what I do. I see it as an opportunity to get better and learn a new way of catching fish. I am usually happy with two or three fish when I hunt because thats all i am going to see on a given day. I cant imagine loading, shooting, string, reload and shoot another fish and so on and so on. That would be amazing to me and I am sure you guys can teach me quite a bit. So my real interest would be to meet other experienced hunter and learn the way you guys do it over there. Just like you have an open invitation to dive with me in miami where you wont need to freeshaft because you will be looking at very long shots most of the time. The need to reload quickly is also a mute point here so I am sure that would be something good for you as your stalking techniqes will be immensely improved. I am not looking to start any debates whatsoever. I think my comments about you guys on the above pretty much clearly shows my intentions are to establish comraderie and experience. The one thing you will see in me is that I am very very experienced, I am an excellent shooter at any range and I stalk fish with the best of them. Other than that, I am open to anything I can learn in order to make myself better. I think this board opens the door for some real insight and I love it including those I disagree with. However, I will always show respect for each and everyone here. If i started on the wrong foot which I know I did, I apologize to each and everyone i may have offended. That is not my nature. I am at least man enough to post this where all of you can see it and decide for yourselves whether I am the same person who originally posted here. Thanks to all of you for your insights into this great board.
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09-06-2003, 10:52 AM | #14 |
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Shooting Styles and Spearboard
Kevin,
Well said! Even though we disagree on a few shooting styles I respect your opinions, you've paid your dues in developing them. Here's an ironic note taken from the same e-mail from Daryl Wong as my first quotes: "Personally we try to shoot the fish as close as possible and I rarely take a shot more than ten feet away. My rule of thumb is to try and shoot within two shafts lengths, which is about 10-12 ft. Our fish here in Hawaii aren't that big, so the farther away, the smaller the fish looks. I wish they were bigger like the ones you target in Florida." "One day I'll have to get up to Florida and see the style of diving you guys do. All you have to do is check out the gun and dial in the aiming and let those shafts fly! Now you have a goal for your boat to be finished to test the MG on the Middle Grounds!" Aloha, Daryl. Pretty funny right? Daryl agrees with your style even though he's a freediver, rather than many of my alternative styles. Namely the: *Take the longshot, hit 'em, hole 'em up and dig 'em out style. Or the: *Hit 'em with a LS, hit 'em again, & take 'em in the open style. Or my favorite the: *Hit 'em with a LS & roll 'em over style! It all comes down to how accurate I am with my freeshaft gun and for me that puts the real sizzle in the sport, on scuba or freediving! (One added note is that I believe in pursuing every fish until every effort to retrieve it has been exhausted, including subsequent dives and my buddies and I practice proper dive planning for those possibilities.) Ditto that about Spearboard being a great media! Chad
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Capt Chad Carney Please No PMs Text my cell 727-423-7775 or e-mail chad.carney@yahoo.com www.floridaskindiver.com - 35+ Years Instructing Freediving, Scuba, Tech & Spearfishing Located in Isles of Capri, FL Charters for Spearfishing, Wrecks & Reefs in SW Florida |
09-06-2003, 11:07 AM | #15 |
Dive Instructor & Captain
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Isles of Capri, FL
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MGS
Oh yeah John,
Sure you can try it out! I may not shoot it in the Southern Open unless I can get it dialed in by then. Dave, The boat goes in on Monday for the new 500HP Yanmar, so get ready for that Grounds run, it'll be ready around the end of the month! JC, You were just s*** faced that weekend when you first posted, right? Chad
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Capt Chad Carney Please No PMs Text my cell 727-423-7775 or e-mail chad.carney@yahoo.com www.floridaskindiver.com - 35+ Years Instructing Freediving, Scuba, Tech & Spearfishing Located in Isles of Capri, FL Charters for Spearfishing, Wrecks & Reefs in SW Florida |
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