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Old 05-09-2016, 01:03 PM   #1
spearq8
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Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

Spent 10 sessions with the roller kit testing different configurations and comparing them with a simple classic setup. Initially wasted a few days that I will never get back as I couldn't figure out why I was not getting good accuracy. I figured maybe the line was snagging somewhere on the kit or maybe I was drinking too much coffee. Turned out to be just that the Pathos shaft was bad! The facets were not cut centered and the shaft was very soft ... bad combination as with the roller shots would dive down and with classic setup shots were spraying all over the place. I didn't have any other shaft at 120cm so ended up grinding the tip to Pencil point and added a cone ... that settled things down and with weaker loads it shot well but with high loads it would shift right. Later on I did manage to get a nice Sigalsub shaft @ 7mm and things improved. Also decided to test a Sporasub 130cm shaft on the classic setup just to see if shaft whip was a problem. It turns out that even at 6.5mm shots were perfect even with high loads. My guess is that the ultimate setup would be with a Sporasub 125cm @ 6.75mm.

I couldn't put all the tests I did as already the video is about 30 minutes! I chose the most relevant tests. I was really amazed at how powerful an 82cm gun could be made. I had a batch of very thin 14mm small ID bands that measured at 13.7mm and I used a bit of that batch for the bands in this test. No drama just cut them at 360% and super easy to load. Performance was incredible and you really realize how much these small ID bands have changed things even with such small guns. Easily passed the King Mackerel Penetration test with all shafts at 5 meters with excellent accuracy ... you run out of line at about 5.4 meters with 2 wraps ... so if your line can reach it the fish is in trouble.

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Old 05-09-2016, 04:15 PM   #2
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

How long were the small id 14 mm bands cut ?
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Old 05-09-2016, 06:07 PM   #3
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

My god you are so thorough.. It makes me realise i should rally optimise all my setups, because small changes can have such a large impact on performance.

I think i am going to add some more pre-stretch to my Seal 80 double roller, on the small guns looks like it adds a lot.
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Old 05-09-2016, 07:35 PM   #4
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

Very interesting, you're really redefining what's possible with conventional band guns. An 82cm gun with 5m of range is off the charts, most people would consider that a murky water/hole gun size.
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Old 05-10-2016, 03:48 AM   #5
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

Bands were cut @ 360% ... you take distance from band hole to shark fin and then multiply by 2 and divide by 3.6 With the Sporasub shaft the bands were on a much lower stretch as the first notch much be 10cm or more forward and the back notch also a couple of cm forward. Still the performance was excellent even with the reduced stretch ... but that was a light 6.5mm shaft and those thin 13.7mm small ID bands really push that shaft easily. Of course you could optimize for that shaft and keep it at 360% or go 380%, but I really didn't feel like making new bands. For the 7mm shaft ... maybe a slightly thicker band at about 14mm or 14.2mm would do better ... maybe not.

Results really surprised me as I used a Beuchat 85cm for many years as close reef gun setup with a single tight 20mm band. I had problem penetrating even small fish at the end of two wraps ... the penetration test would be similar to the 20mm single band test in this video ... about half a flopper ... and it was agony loading that damn 20mm band. Wish I had these thin bands then! To give you an idea what it takes to go through 10cm 35cfm styroboard ... at 1 meter longer distance (6m) I spent ages trying to get a 7mm @ 160cm shaft loaded with 3 x 16mm bands on a Riffe 120X to pass it with no success! Of course today things are different and 2 x 14.5mm small ID bands on a good setup would pass it no problem ... but this is to give you an idea of the power required to go through that styroboard. Again power is the result of proper choice of band and shaft with good gun design ... if the shaft is stable it can give a huge boost to power and the by product is also excellent accuracy.

As for rollers ... I think there is a fundamental design flaw that needs to be addressed and that is shooting low. I feel it is something that can be fixed design wise. The more power you add the lower the gun shoots. That might seem like it is not a big problem and you just adjust aim ... but it is much more than that. The shaft is diving and not shooting flat ... when hunting fish you need a flat shooting setup as it is really difficult to gauge distance accurately and you don't want to have to deal with that. The less guesswork the more accurate your shots will be. I am surprised that people don't complain about low shooting with rollers ... personally I find they all shoot low ... unless you power them down. Again I feel this can be fixed ... but even then the power of a single roller cannot be compared to a good classic 2 banded setup. I need to really test out an invert roller as the ones I have tried seem to push power much more ... but they also shoot low!
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Old 05-10-2016, 04:45 AM   #6
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

Why don't the manufacturers of these guns test them and get them firing properly. Surely it would increase sales. A 80cm gun shooting 5mts is insane.
Love ya vids. Definitely turned me off rollers.
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Old 05-10-2016, 06:58 AM   #7
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Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tottenham View Post
Why don't the manufacturers of these guns test them and get them firing properly. Surely it would increase sales. A 80cm gun shooting 5mts is insane.
Love ya vids. Definitely turned me off rollers.


Exactly...why don't they? Pool testing is the most important thing a gun builder can do. They should use it to fix flaws and then figure out exactly what the potential is of each gun in their line. You wouldn't believe the crap we got on these forums from builders saying that pool testing isn't that important because it isn't subjected to the conditions you would encounter while hunting, etc. Now the funny thing is since Majd turned everything upside down and started putting out objective data and the real truth with these videos, the same builders are pool testing and preaching the importance HAHA.

People don't like change, and they want to believe what they want to believe. Even after this proof, you will still see people posting in other threads how their roller conversion kits are more powerful...but just because they want them to be won't make it true.

Last edited by jstiver09; 05-10-2016 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 05-10-2016, 07:34 AM   #8
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

Thanks for the effort Majd, really great. I'm also blown away at the power of the 82cm with classic setup, I thought 3.5/4m would be the max you could expect to land fish at, 5m though - very impressive.
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Old 05-10-2016, 11:13 AM   #9
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

Majd, would be interesting to get one of best in your hands, something like the Alemanni or the Roisub have great reputation and of course have been tested extensively. I never had an opportunity to shoot either, but what I've seen in videos and heard from knowledgeable friends is impressive?

Stiver, always with the sharp tongue. What gun builder would think that static testing is of no value? I don't think anyone ever took that stance? Every gun builder friend I have has been using static testing since before the internet. It was actually considered secret in the past.. The ease of video these days is a breakthrough, and the bands have changed which is really what all of the stir up has been about in classic banded guns over the past two years. Any gun can have better range using the newer bands. But of course the most important part of testing is extended field testing.. That's where you find out what fails or what needs to be changed for real life use.

People are afraid of change? It doesn't look that way to me at all. Look at the amount of divers trying out Rollers, Inverted, new band configurations, new handles, new pneumatics, composites, printed guns, Bluewater Polespears, etc........ speak for yourself.
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Old 05-10-2016, 11:18 AM   #10
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

Jon, the vast majority of spearguns sold have never been static tested, tweaked, etc. That is a fact. If it isn't then the builders simply don't want their guns to shoot well. How can you argue this after watching video after video of Majd testing stock guns setup to the builders recommendations and having them shoot horribly? Am i missing something?


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Old 05-10-2016, 11:21 AM   #11
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

Look back through the archives and read some of the old threads when the small ID bands first were talked about, you'll see reputable builders trying to discount their effectiveness from the get go...many examples. Same applies to gun design. Of course when the evidence becomes such that you cannot ignore it the same guys change their tone.


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Old 05-10-2016, 11:27 AM   #12
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

Quote:
Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
Bands were cut @ 360% ... you take distance from band hole to shark fin and then multiply by 2 and divide by 3.6 With the Sporasub shaft the bands were on a much lower stretch as the first notch much be 10cm or more forward and the back notch also a couple of cm forward. Still the performance was excellent even with the reduced stretch ... but that was a light 6.5mm shaft and those thin 13.7mm small ID bands really push that shaft easily. Of course you could optimize for that shaft and keep it at 360% or go 380%, but I really didn't feel like making new bands. For the 7mm shaft ... maybe a slightly thicker band at about 14mm or 14.2mm would do better ... maybe not.

Results really surprised me as I used a Beuchat 85cm for many years as close reef gun setup with a single tight 20mm band. I had problem penetrating even small fish at the end of two wraps ... the penetration test would be similar to the 20mm single band test in this video ... about half a flopper ... and it was agony loading that damn 20mm band. Wish I had these thin bands then! To give you an idea what it takes to go through 10cm 35cfm styroboard ... at 1 meter longer distance (6m) I spent ages trying to get a 7mm @ 160cm shaft loaded with 3 x 16mm bands on a Riffe 120X to pass it with no success! Of course today things are different and 2 x 14.5mm small ID bands on a good setup would pass it no problem ... but this is to give you an idea of the power required to go through that styroboard. Again power is the result of proper choice of band and shaft with good gun design ... if the shaft is stable it can give a huge boost to power and the by product is also excellent accuracy.

As for rollers ... I think there is a fundamental design flaw that needs to be addressed and that is shooting low. I feel it is something that can be fixed design wise. The more power you add the lower the gun shoots. That might seem like it is not a big problem and you just adjust aim ... but it is much more than that. The shaft is diving and not shooting flat ... when hunting fish you need a flat shooting setup as it is really difficult to gauge distance accurately and you don't want to have to deal with that. The less guesswork the more accurate your shots will be. I am surprised that people don't complain about low shooting with rollers ... personally I find they all shoot low ... unless you power them down. Again I feel this can be fixed ... but even then the power of a single roller cannot be compared to a good classic 2 banded setup. I need to really test out an invert roller as the ones I have tried seem to push power much more ... but they also shoot low!
When you add more power to a roller the shaft just leaves the band's behind earlier,( same with a normal gun with too thick of bands ) a roller needs to have the band's balanced with the shaft dia so that the shaft.is geting pushed all the way to the muzzle , if the band's are too strong the shaft will leave the band's behind and if you keep adding power the shaft will keep geting less and less power . Rollers need heavy shafts to work right .
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Old 05-10-2016, 11:43 AM   #13
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

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Originally Posted by jstiver09 View Post
Look back through the archives and read some of the old threads when the small ID bands first were talked about, you'll see reputable builders trying to discount their effectiveness from the get go...many examples. Same applies to gun design. Of course when the evidence becomes such that you cannot ignore it the same guys change their tone.


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No we all pool ( target shoot in the ocean )test , what we did say is pool testing and a gun that works great in a static envirment doesn't eqiate to a gun actualy working the best in a real hunting situation . And that what is best for you isn't best for everyone .

And on a side note there is no new band formula its the same old stuff ,the batch before this was cured wrong and should have never left primline ( they said something about it was unusualy cold out and it took longer than normal to cure ) ,it was.way too hard ,the "new ,small id" batch cured on the soft side and is working really well , we will see how the next run comes out , if I was you I would stock up now since this batch works well for you

Both batches are on the market right now ,that's what u ou hear about a hard to pull back and a ez batch of small id , it's still.debatable weather the small ID is changing anything or if it's just that the small ID stuff just came from a really good batch , time will tell
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Old 05-10-2016, 12:50 PM   #14
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

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Originally Posted by phil herranen View Post
No we all pool ( target shoot in the ocean )test , what we did say is pool testing and a gun that works great in a static envirment doesn't eqiate to a gun actualy working the best in a real hunting situation . And that what is best for you isn't best for everyone
I don't quite understand this. In a pool, you can test almost everything.

#1 You can test how long the loading process is (evident in video)

#2 Test accuracy of guns

#3 Test accuracy of shafts and sliptips

#4 Test penetration

#5 Test lateral movement of guns

#6 Test the effects of shooting lines ect.. wire vs mono, Thin mono vs Thick mono, dyneema

#7 Test band setups. Which thickness and lengths suit best for the gun.

#8 Test band alignment (are bands vibrating when moving gun)

#9 Test recoil if it is acceptable

If a gun has great penetration, accuracy, movement and has fast loading process in the pool, it will have the same in the ocean.

The problem with testing in the ocean is there are other variables.

For example, the distance of the shot on a fish can never be determined with certainty. Shooting down at a fish is not the same as shooting across.

Ocean testing is good for other things that I will explain later
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Old 05-10-2016, 01:12 PM   #15
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!

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No we all pool ( target shoot in the ocean )test

Who is "we all"? Bleutec recommends (on their website) the wrong setup for their guns, Aimrite sends their guns setup horribly, the Ulusub stock setup tested poorly, same with Pathos, Rob Allen, and the list goes on. They don't test them, and if they do they don't want their guns to shoot well. I am pretty sure Majd has not had a stock gun perform even close to its potential. If a gun builder sends a gun away with a poor setup or recommends a poor setup, they deserve every negative review they get.
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