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Upper Gulfcoast This is the area for spearfishermen in Panama City, Destin/Ft. Walton, Pensacola, Alabama, Miss., and Louisiana.

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Old 02-21-2012, 07:36 PM   #46
kylo1597
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Re: some lessons learned

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Originally Posted by UaVaj View Post
my issue is with straight-up pros in regards to what cause X's air embolism.
Im not a straight-up pro but it seems you believe yourself to be one. Im no expert on PFO but I do like to think of myself as a well educated chemical engineering student. So here's a little more than one sentence to contradict your theory.

So im assuming you know every detail about the dive and can reply in the next post what happened from the time they entered the water to the time they got back on the boat?

Correct me if im wrong, BUT! Say I am on the boat about to start my first dive. I dive to 130ft, stay at the bottom only 2 mins. Now while ascending at the reccommended 1ft/sec I, Ascend to 90ft, make a 3 min safety stop. Ascend to 60ft, make a 3 min safety stop. Ascent to 30ft, make a 3 min safety stop. and Finally ascend to 15ft and make a 3 min safety stop. I think we can all agree that this is safety overkill. That being said, when i get back to the boat wouldnt I still have SOME excess nitrogen in my system? This quote is from the article spearmax linked us to. "With each heart beat or when a person with this defect creates pressure inside his or her chest - such as when coughing, sneezing, or straining during a bowel movement - the flap can open, and blood can flow in either direction directly between the right and left atrium. When blood moves directly from the right atrium to the left atrium, this blood bypasses the filtering system of the lungs (the lungs actually do dissolve tiny blood clots). If debris is present in the blood, such as small blood clots, it now passes through the left atrium and can lodge in the brain, causing a stroke, or another organ, such as the heart, eyes, or kidneys." So even if diver X followed this same diving profile we can all agree that he can still have some excess nitrogen bubbles in his system right? Well as quoted above, if diver X strained while swimming, he could have passed a residual nitrogen bubble through his heart and onto his brain causing the embolism. Whos to say the bubble didnt pass through his heart before he started to ascend given his heart condition? There's too many variables to know EXACTLY what caused it.

Can we stop this pissing match and get back to being the friendly, helpful forum we are?
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Old 02-21-2012, 08:18 PM   #47
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Re: some lessons learned

UaVaj Cracks me up. Do you follow the comics? Pearls before Swine..... gators Melvin and Bob. He has a place in that crowd.

Sorry to digress from my lurking status on this thread. With all the drama there are still valuable lessons. Thanks to all for posting.
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:03 PM   #48
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Re: some lessons learned

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you call me vaGina. yet, you are the one that needed to re-read? if I am a vaGina, I can only wonder what you are.

if you did read properly the first time. you would realize that my issue was NEVER with Billy. Billy did everything right given the situation. X lived to dive another day.

if you did read properly the first time. you would realize my issue is with straight-up pros in regards to what cause X's air embolism.
"still waiting for straight-up pros' one sentence answer to disprove my theory and the Dr.'s recommendation."

go back are re-read. then, perhap you will be better than a vaGina.
I had to go back and re-read because I thought I'd surely missed something, but it wern't so. It was clear after the doc said so that X had a bad ticker. Who'd a thunk it. What I'm still fuzzy on is, why are you such a prick. Clearly you do not process information and retain it any faster or better than anyone else here, so I wonder.
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:33 PM   #49
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Re: some lessons learned

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Originally Posted by kylo1597 View Post
Im not a straight-up pro but it seems you believe yourself to be one. Im no expert on PFO but I do like to think of myself as a well educated chemical engineering student. So here's a little more than one sentence to contradict your theory.

So im assuming you know every detail about the dive and can reply in the next post what happened from the time they entered the water to the time they got back on the boat?

Correct me if im wrong, BUT! Say I am on the boat about to start my first dive. I dive to 130ft, stay at the bottom only 2 mins. Now while ascending at the reccommended 1ft/sec I, Ascend to 90ft, make a 3 min safety stop. Ascend to 60ft, make a 3 min safety stop. Ascent to 30ft, make a 3 min safety stop. and Finally ascend to 15ft and make a 3 min safety stop. I think we can all agree that this is safety overkill. That being said, when i get back to the boat wouldnt I still have SOME excess nitrogen in my system? This quote is from the article spearmax linked us to. "With each heart beat or when a person with this defect creates pressure inside his or her chest - such as when coughing, sneezing, or straining during a bowel movement - the flap can open, and blood can flow in either direction directly between the right and left atrium. When blood moves directly from the right atrium to the left atrium, this blood bypasses the filtering system of the lungs (the lungs actually do dissolve tiny blood clots). If debris is present in the blood, such as small blood clots, it now passes through the left atrium and can lodge in the brain, causing a stroke, or another organ, such as the heart, eyes, or kidneys." So even if diver X followed this same diving profile we can all agree that he can still have some excess nitrogen bubbles in his system right? Well as quoted above, if diver X strained while swimming, he could have passed a residual nitrogen bubble through his heart and onto his brain causing the embolism. Whos to say the bubble didnt pass through his heart before he started to ascend given his heart condition? There's too many variables to know EXACTLY what caused it.

Can we stop this pissing match and get back to being the friendly, helpful forum we are?
Thanks for the constructive post.

I was not there. I can only go by accounts of what Billy posted. Given that limited particular dataset. Based on my knowledge of the concepts in play here, I have drawn this theory of what caused the air embolism. Even the Dr.’s recommendations coincide with my findings.

To truly understand what happened to X. One has to understand what an air embolism is and how an air embolism occurs. Next one has to understand what a PFO is and how a PFO affect vascular circulation. Now add diving. One has to understand how tissue absorbs gas under pressure at depth. Lastly one has to understand how tissue off-gas when pressure is reduced during ascends from depth.

As for the pissing match, I am done trying to educating folks to refuse to be educated. They already know it all, hence the straight-up-pro comments.





In regard to your profile. There are some holes, which is acceptable. You are an engineer profession, not a medical profession. You go by absolute. 2+2=4. In the medical profession, there is no absolute. There are only ranges and sometimes there are even extremes. sometimes 2+2=3 and ends up short.

For example regarding your profile: 1’/sec which is 60’/min. Ascend rate is the max safe recommended by DAN. Should be safe right? Not exactly. With a medical background, one would suggest 60’/min is for someone who is very healthy with an efficient cardio vascular system and definitely not safe for someone with a PFO. See how someone with your background could easily confuse this. Now imagine all the straight-up pro who are too smart to even post something constructive.

You may feel that such profile is an over kill. For someone like you who is a normal healthy person. Chances are, it could be an over kill. For someone like X who is abnormal. He needs that extra margin of safety. For him it is NOT overkill. As Billy pointed out, their profiles were safe, yet X still got hit.





If you still want to fully understand this topic further. Please feel free to PM me for contact info. I will explain it best I can and will point you to the proper references so you do not have to just take my word for it. Then you can draw your own conclusion.
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:38 PM   #50
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Re: some lessons learned

Haters gonna hate
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:40 PM   #51
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Re: some lessons learned

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I had to go back and re-read because I thought I'd surely missed something, but it wern't so. It was clear after the doc said so that X had a bad ticker. Who'd a thunk it. What I'm still fuzzy on is, why are you such a prick. Clearly you do not process information and retain it any faster or better than anyone else here, so I wonder.
a bad ticker?



You do realize that 20-25% of the population has a form of this condition and these folks live normal lives doing normal things - diving too. Heck you might even have it.

perhap re-read a third time.




just for you. Us medical folks, refers to PFO as "atrial septal defect." google it. you might learn a thing or two.
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:46 PM   #52
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Re: some lessons learned

In the infamous words of Rodney King...."cant we just all get along" and adding my .02 worth....and go back to talkin' about murdering FISH!
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:48 PM   #53
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Re: some lessons learned

Live everyday like it's your last, cause, one day, It will be ! You just never know !
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:50 PM   #54
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Re: some lessons learned

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Haters gonna hate
different folks with different strokes. no hard feelings. i have a thick flame suit.




for those who do wonders - why is there even a hole in the heart to begin with? (I am in a good mood so I will educate a little). becuase it is necessary for fetus vascular circulation. the fetus lung is not utilize when in the womb. mother cardio vascular system handle the gas exchange for the fetus. hence the need for the foramen ovale. so blood can skip the lung of the fetus.
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:56 PM   #55
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Re: some lessons learned

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Originally Posted by UaVaj View Post
different folks with different strokes. no hard feelings. i have a thick flame suit.




for those who do wonders - why is there even a hole in the heart to begin with? (I am in a good mood so I will educate a little). becuase it is necessary for fetus vascular circulation. the fetus lung is not utilize when in the womb. mother cardio vascular system handle the gas exchange for the fetus. hence the need for the foramen ovale. so blood can skip the lung of the fetus.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:00 PM   #56
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Re: some lessons learned

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Actually, it IS kinda cool. We were all freedivers, no breathing for 9 months.

Can I brag that I used to have a breath hold over 12 minutes when i was younger?
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:03 PM   #57
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Re: some lessons learned

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Actually, it IS kinda cool. We were all freedivers, no breathing for 9 months.

Can I brag that I used to have a breath hold over 12 minutes when i was younger?
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:36 PM   #58
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Re: some lessons learned

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a bad ticker?



You do realize that 20-25% of the population has a form of this condition and these folks live normal lives doing normal things - diving too. Heck you might even have it.

perhap re-read a third time.




just for you. Us medical folks, refers to PFO as "atrial septal defect." google it. you might learn a thing or two.
20-50% of the population will never dive to 100' and we all get it asshole. I now realize that we could go over this indefinitely and you would still miss the point. We can read and understand the big words and numbers just like you "medical" folks but most of us feed our egos with action or deeds. Your demeanor and profile name, not to mention the condecending way you speak, says it all....You're A Vagina. Sew it up bitch.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:13 PM   #59
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Re: some lessons learned

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Actually, it IS kinda cool. We were all freedivers, no breathing for 9 months.
I did not meant it to be interperted like that.
it amazing how words can get twisted. anyway thanks for the humor.





Quote:
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Can I brag that I used to have a breath hold over 12 minutes when i was younger?
yes you can brag that u have a breath hold over 12 minuites.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:20 PM   #60
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Re: some lessons learned

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20-50% of the population will never dive to 100' and we all get it asshole. I now realize that we could go over this indefinitely and you would still miss the point. We can read and understand the big words and numbers just like you "medical" folks but most of us feed our egos with action or deeds. Your demeanor and profile name, not to mention the condecending way you speak, says it all....You're A Vagina. Sew it up bitch.
what happen to showing a little professionalism. you know spewing stuff like that could get you ban.





btw. where did you get that statistic? please do share.

here mine, incase you want to verify it. Robbins Basic Pathology, 8th Edition, p. 384

here is another source, incase you are unable to properly read the first one. http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/890991-overview
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