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Old 02-21-2020, 07:57 PM   #181
popgun pete
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

Meandros have their own roller tooth trigger mechanism, but here it looks like the roller tooth engages the side slots in the housing, so this will need the eurogun ramped or curved spear tail notch to work.
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Old 03-11-2020, 07:39 AM   #182
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

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Originally Posted by kodama View Post
@Popgun Pete
I would love to see you discuss the (very long) reverse trigger that is installed on Seals 130 gun you bought!

It is located so far back that it almost reminds me of a remote trigger you find on mid-handles.

I suppose we could decrease overall speargun length by elongating the trigger sear even more and having the spear end going all the way back into the loading butt. It will make loading hot bands more challenging but it would still be possible with the under-the-leg-loading-technique.



With the understanding of trigger physics combined with a nice double roller design I could envision some gains in overall length.



Anyway please discuss the trigger including pictures once you have received the gun. I would certainly appreciate your effort.

I now have the gun and will be taking a closer look at it, but first impressions are everything is very well made and the carbon fiber work is excellent. The gun does have a very long trigger mechanism as can be seen in these images.

There is another gun remaining that is identical to this one, but it has no hardware mounted even though the gun body is completely finished with camo paint and the name stencilled on.
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Old 06-08-2020, 04:26 PM   #183
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

As someone asked for it elsewhere here is the Beuchat Mundial trigger mechanism. It is one of two dipping sear tooth trigger mechanisms, the other was produced by Sporasub. As they both held the patents their guns worked OK, but copyists had to make changes and their own guns were more troublesome. The curved slots that controlled the sear tooth movements were in the metal inner cage of the Beuchat design and in the sear lever itself for the Sporasub version, hence in the latter the sear lever slid on a stationary pivot pin.
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Old 07-27-2020, 05:35 PM   #184
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

The main reason for adopting reverse triggers is that they are shallow and can allow the grip handle to sit higher up so that the spear axis is not far above your hand. The downside is that they only dry fire thanks to the weight of the sear lever arm as they usually have no biasing spring on that arm. Exceptions are the Sea Hornet and Biller which use a leaf spring to bias both levers, but that deepens the mechanism housing. If you want more band draw then you need a longer gun. It would be possible to bury a standard trigger in the speargun grip and fire it via a remote trigger from in front of the grip, much like a mid-handle gun using a short link or pushrod. From memory Omer tried this with a gun where the trigger pushed on a second trigger or locking arm snugged in just behind the externally visible trigger.

The sear lever pivot pin position with respect to the sear lever tooth determines how readily the sear lever rolls. On standard mechanisms it usually sits below and just behind the tooth, but on reverse mechanisms it can be found further back. This may tend to cause drag on the tooth as the sear lever tips through a smaller arc, unlike standard mechanisms where the sear lever tips through a much larger arc to let the shaft go. The adoption of roller tooths will lessen this dragging as the spear tail rides up the tooth on the roller, the actual "tooth" being the cup that the roller sits in on the sear lever. Angled spear tail notches, i.e. eurogun shafts, will push the roller tooth down, square cut tails need to act on the cup, thus the roller tooth has to be free of the housing to ensure that it is not caught on any imprisoning housing side slots.

Last edited by popgun pete; 07-27-2020 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 07-28-2020, 12:52 AM   #185
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

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Originally Posted by popgun pete View Post
The main reason for adopting reverse triggers is that they are shallow and can allow the grip handle to sit higher up so that the spear axis is not far above your hand. The downside is that they only dry fire thanks to the weight of the sear lever arm as they usually have no biasing spring on that arm. Exceptions are the Sea Hornet and Biller which use a leaf spring to bias both levers, but that deepens the mechanism housing. If you want more band draw then you need a longer gun. It would be possible to bury a standard trigger in the speargun grip and fire it via a remote trigger from in front of the grip, much like a mid-handle gun using a short link or pushrod. From memory Omer tried this with a gun where the trigger pushed on a second trigger or locking arm snugged in just behind the externally visible trigger.

The sear lever pivot pin position with respect to the sear lever tooth determines how readily the sear lever rolls. On standard mechanisms it usually sits below and just behind the tooth, but on reverse mechanisms it can be found further back. This may tend to cause drag on the tooth as the sear lever tips through a smaller arc, unlike standard mechanisms where the sear lever tips through a much larger arc to let the shaft go. The adoption of roller tooths will lessen this dragging as the spear tail rides up the tooth on the roller, the actual "tooth" being the cup that the roller sits in on the sear lever. Angled spear tail notches, i.e. eurogun shafts, will push the roller tooth down, square cut tails need to act on the cup, thus the roller tooth has to be free of the housing to ensure that it is not caught on any imprisoning housing side slots.
what about Durability ? I have been using regular Neptonic trigger for long time and never have issue at least for 5 triggers I bought but for other new roller reverse brand I didn't try them for long time , BTW they are doing fine till now (2 years)
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Old 07-28-2020, 01:22 AM   #186
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

Durability depends on extent of use and how well guns are maintained. Everything wears out eventually, but some never put a lot of shots through their guns, so short of accidents the mechanism could last for decades and different owners. Because manufacturers don't expect guns to be molly coddled they make them to be reasonably rugged and they only need some occasional rinsing to get salt and sand out. For long term storage cleaned parts only need a shot of WD40. Over loading and using the mechanism as a vice while removing hard to budge speartips can bend parts, so is not recommended. The sear tooth only holds the shaft while the spear tail cannot jump over the top of it, hence the nip of the sear box roof should not be compromised nor axles bent.

Mechanisms with plastic parts after careful design are reasonably durable if the gun is kept within its design limits, copies made by pirates maybe not so durable when they have no idea what they are copying and what it is actually made from, plastic ain't always plastic, but they don't care about that.

If you buy from someone who has a reputation to keep then the products will be good, provided they did their homework such as testing and durability assessments. Few guns have come out with rubbish mechs and they were almost immediately binned once the word got out.
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Old 09-06-2020, 01:15 AM   #187
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

Does salvimar revised their metal trigger in the last 4 years ? I read other posts in 2016 discussing the salvimar first metal trigger and many comments was comparing the thin roller pin to ERMESSUB and how salvimar was weak , recently there is trigger called Heavy duty metal from salvimar , I have seen their speargun tomahawk and hero is widely used in my place and many guys said its very accurate and smooth,but gun setup 6.5 mm /7 mm with 2 pair of rubber ,I am not sure if it can be used for building a wood gun with 3 rubbers ,anyone try that trigger for long time ?
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Old 09-06-2020, 03:27 AM   #188
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

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Does salvimar revised their metal trigger in the last 4 years ? I read other posts in 2016 discussing the salvimar first metal trigger and many comments was comparing the thin roller pin to ERMESSUB and how salvimar was weak , recently there is trigger called Heavy duty metal from salvimar , I have seen their speargun tomahawk and hero is widely used in my place and many guys said its very accurate and smooth,but gun setup 6.5 mm /7 mm with 2 pair of rubber ,I am not sure if it can be used for building a wood gun with 3 rubbers ,anyone try that trigger for long time ?

You cannot compare the new Ermessub triggers with the Salvimar. The Salvimar Metal trigger has a 2.5mm roller while the Hero roller is a little more at around 3mm ... compare that with the Ermessub which is 6mm and it is obvious that the 6mm roller will distribute load much better at high loads as the roller has much larger surface area to work with

But the main problem with the Salvimar trigger is that they have incredibly poor tolerances. I measured the shaft sear pin hole at 4.15 mm !!! and they are using a 4mm pin for that sear. Roller triggers need very high tolerances so that the rotational contact is precise and ideally you want to have between .02 to .04 mm tolerance between pin and hole. With the Salvimar trigger the loose tolerance allows the entire sear to move forward and thus the rotational contact gets screwed up and the shaft sear gets jammed into the trigger sear and doesn't allow it to function properly. I have a few of those triggers and I found a very simple fix. If you have a lathe, just take a 5mm 316 SS rod and shave it down to 4.12 mm and use that as your trigger sear pin. Of course you will need to slightly enlarge the mech box pin holes to allow for the larger diameter pin. This is a good solution if you want to upgrade a pathos speargun as the Salvimar Metal handle is dramatically better design than the Pathos and once you fix the trigger it really is a great upgrade to any Pathos pipe gun. Locally I can get those handles for less than $20 with trigger ... they are being sold cheap as they are seen as defective, but once you fix the trigger they really are a great bargain.
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Old 09-07-2020, 07:10 PM   #189
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

Hero trigger works fine. Metal doesn't.
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Old 09-24-2020, 01:58 AM   #190
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

Someone recently asked me about the Ermes-Sub double roller and its gearing advantage which can be appreciated more if you think of the cupped cut-out in the sear lever arm as actually being the sear tooth. That means it is on a line with the sear lever pivot pin at the rear. What pushes the sear lever down is the fact that the cupped cut-out is effectively an angled tooth which directs a component of spear pull force downwards. You can think of the spear tail notch and intervening roller as a single part pushing on the sear lever, then once it rolls the two components separate. Wear on the roller and cupped cut-out "tooth" remains to be seen in the long term when used in the sea. Clearances are now not just the nip between the sear box roof and sear tooth top, but between the sear box roof, roller and sear lever cupped cut-out, it being the effective “tooth”.
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Old 06-27-2021, 09:18 PM   #191
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

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Originally Posted by popgun pete View Post
As someone asked for it elsewhere here is the Beuchat Mundial trigger mechanism. It is one of two dipping sear tooth trigger mechanisms, the other was produced by Sporasub. As they both held the patents their guns worked OK, but copyists had to make changes and their own guns were more troublesome. The curved slots that controlled the sear tooth movements were in the metal inner cage of the Beuchat design and in the sear lever itself for the Sporasub version, hence in the latter the sear lever slid on a stationary pivot pin.
The diagram disappeared because the thread it referenced is no longer linked, so here it is direct.
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Old 07-01-2021, 09:32 PM   #192
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

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Originally Posted by popgun pete View Post
Someone recently asked me about the Ermes-Sub double roller and its gearing advantage which can be appreciated more if you think of the cupped cut-out in the sear lever arm as actually being the sear tooth. That means it is on a line with the sear lever pivot pin at the rear. What pushes the sear lever down is the fact that the cupped cut-out is effectively an angled tooth which directs a component of spear pull force downwards. You can think of the spear tail notch and intervening roller as a single part pushing on the sear lever, then once it rolls the two components separate. Wear on the roller and cupped cut-out "tooth" remains to be seen in the long term when used in the sea. Clearances are now not just the nip between the sear box roof and sear tooth top, but between the sear box roof, roller and sear lever cupped cut-out, it being the effective “tooth”.
As shown in this photo with the sear lever swung out which can be used to illustrate the point made above if you think of it as the mechanism being cocked with the lever sitting in the horizontal plane.
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Old 11-07-2021, 07:14 PM   #193
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

Ummmmm i need help reassembling my AB Biller safety…. Any help??
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Old 11-08-2021, 01:46 AM   #194
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

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Ummmmm i need help reassembling my AB Biller safety…. Any help??
The AB Biller trigger mechanism is similar to the Sea Hornet but has some important differences. On the opposite side of the grip to the red safety lever is a round red plastic bush that the control rod slightly pokes through. This red bush is sprung loaded by a short coil spring sitting underneath it and if you push the red bush inwards it will partially disappear into the black grip handle thereby exposing a metal wire circlip that is holding the red plastic bush onto the control rod. Using a screwdriver or a rod you have to hold the bush down while prying the circlip loose which will pop off suddenly and disappear to parts unknown unless you do this work indoors over a clean work surface so you can find the circlip again. Once the circlip is off the coil spring underneath pushes the red bush up and you can easily remove the spring and the metal washer sitting underneath it. The safety lever and the control rod can then be pulled outwards from the other side of the grip handle as one assembly and then the metal safety cam will fall out of the cassette housing. The metal control rod is of square cross section as is the hole in the safety cam so you need to refit the cam in the correct orientation for it to work properly. The safety cam shape is the same basic shape as the cam used in the Sea Hornet so you position it to sit in the same orientation on the control shaft. The Biller is designed to swap the safety lever to either side of the gun as the idea is the user’s trigger finger can flip the safety lever “on” or “off” while still holding the grip whether you are left or right handed. Standard the gun is set up for right handers.

Reassembly is the reverse of removal, it can be a bit fiddly to do, but is not that difficult once you have a suitable rod to depress the plastic red bush and an awl to manipulate the wire circlip.
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Last edited by popgun pete; 11-08-2021 at 02:17 AM. Reason: Added a diagram to show the parts and where they go.
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Old 11-08-2021, 02:09 AM   #195
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

To save you looking it up elsewhere here are the safety cam positions.
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Last edited by popgun pete; 11-08-2021 at 02:12 AM. Reason: added a photo
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