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Spearfishing Regulations This area is for the topic of existing or proposed Spearfishing Regulations.

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Old 11-05-2007, 12:26 PM   #46
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Re: DEMA Disappointment

Biminibill, has no real interest in arguing facts or making solid educated points. His posts are intended to agitate and piss off as many people as possible. In doing so passionate shooters "vent" in a aggressive manner explaining to Bimini what they really think of him, his views and his BS propaganda. This ONLY gives him more ammo to misquote us and our true feelings.

His opinion that spearfishermen have a public relation problem holds little water. I dive and shoot with many Police and FWC officers with no such opinion. We need to focus on the issues at hand: Gag, Rd Grouper, Red Snapper, AJ and massive closures of the Gulf. If we aren't allowed to shoot fish then we aren't spearfishing. If we aren't spearfishing than we are only diving and we no longer have a "PR" problem.

Guys it's impossible to win an argument or prove your point to someone who has no intention of listening. Him taking shots at Denny and the FRA is a lame attempt to grasp at straws like a 12 year old kid with nothing intelligent to say.

Last edited by Gamble; 11-05-2007 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 11-05-2007, 12:33 PM   #47
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Re: DEMA Disappointment

It is interesting to watch this thread as a non-spearfisherman (although I have nothing against the practice), but as someone close to the new Flower Garden Banks Sanctuary Management Plan review process, and someone who knows the principals who were present when the Texas Flower Gardens were designated a sanctuary. Why don't we spearfish in the Sanctuary? Specifically because the divers and spearfishermen requested that when the Flower Gardens were designated a sanctuary, spearfishing not be allowed. In the new management plan review, public comment was still overwhelmingly in favor of closing the banks to ALL fishing, including spearfishing. Accordingly, the FGB staff will EVALUATE the impacts of different types of use, including fishing AND sport diving to detirmine the carrying capacity of the reef from both divers (photographers) and fishermen. I am told by the spearfishermen that the spearing on the rigs is better anyhow.

If the Elbow and Middle Ground become sanctuaries, does that automatically mean that there will be no spearing allowed there? I am pretty sure that there is spearing allowed in the Florida Keys and Greys Reef sanctuaries, although not in all areas such as SPA's.
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Old 11-05-2007, 12:38 PM   #48
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Re: DEMA Disappointment

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichT View Post
Bill,
If I hire someone to come and clean my house, and they proceed to steal all my stuff, I am not going to call them a maid. I am going to call them a thief.
Now... having said that, that doesnt mean all maids are thieves.
But, I will choose to work with the maids who are not thieves.
No dispresect but please tell me what part of this analogy alludes you and I will attempt to explain it in a manner you understand.
Rich,

As you failed to provide attribution, I'll clarify. I was the one that pointed out to you that your initial comment (about the maid being a thief) did not necessarily mean that all maids are thieves.

I trust that you have found a way to come around to more reasoned thinking on the analogous issue of fishery managers, scientists, and other stakeholders.

(BTW, I believe you meant "eludes"?)

Best regards, and good luck at the upcoming lobster meeting. I hope that the spearfishers and FRA representatives and counsel are able to present reasonable proposals for a fair and beneficial outcome.

Last edited by Seacidal; 11-05-2007 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 11-05-2007, 12:46 PM   #49
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Re: DEMA Disappointment

Quote:
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spearfishermen requested that when the Flower Gardens were designated a sanctuary, spearfishing not be allowed.
In a very non-agressive tone, I would like to ask you how you came to this understanding?
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Old 11-05-2007, 12:51 PM   #50
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Re: DEMA Disappointment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamble View Post
....

His opinion the spearfishermen have a public relation problem holds little water. .
I'm beginning to think otherwise myself.
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Old 11-05-2007, 12:54 PM   #51
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Re: DEMA Disappointment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seacidal View Post
Rich,

As you failed to provide attribution, I'll clarify. I was the one that pointed out to you that your initial comment (about the maid being a thief) did not necessarily mean that all maids are thieves.

I trust that you have found a way to come around to more reasoned thinking on the analogous issue of fishery managers, scientists, and other stakeholders.

(BTW, I believe you meant "eludes"?)

Best regards, and good luck at the upcoming lobster meeting. I hope that the spearfishers and FRA representatives and counsel are able to present reasonable proposals for a more fair and beneficial outcome.

Thanks for the spelling lesson Chip.
Ill try to use my spell check more often when posting just for you.
Sorry I did not give you credit for pointing out that all maids are not thieves. I do not think I ever implied such a thing in my original post but I will give you credit for "setting me straight".

I'm curious? In all your experiences, I find it extremely difficult to believe you havent come across at least a couple "maids" who were not thieves.
Did you choose to work with them, or oppose them and let people know who they are and why you think so?
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Old 11-05-2007, 01:02 PM   #52
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Re: DEMA Disappointment

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Originally Posted by wookie View Post
It is interesting to watch this thread as a non-spearfisherman (although I have nothing against the practice), but as someone close to the new Flower Garden Banks Sanctuary Management Plan review process, and someone who knows the principals who were present when the Texas Flower Gardens were designated a sanctuary. Why don't we spearfish in the Sanctuary? Specifically because the divers and spearfishermen requested that when the Flower Gardens were designated a sanctuary, spearfishing not be allowed. In the new management plan review, public comment was still overwhelmingly in favor of closing the banks to ALL fishing, including spearfishing. Accordingly, the FGB staff will EVALUATE the impacts of different types of use, including fishing AND sport diving to detirmine the carrying capacity of the reef from both divers (photographers) and fishermen. I am told by the spearfishermen that the spearing on the rigs is better anyhow.

If the Elbow and Middle Ground become sanctuaries, does that automatically mean that there will be no spearing allowed there? I am pretty sure that there is spearing allowed in the Florida Keys and Greys Reef sanctuaries, although not in all areas such as SPA's.

Im curious who these "spearfisherman" are as well.
Is it the same spearfisherman who said we should not be allowed to spear snook, permit, Redfish, trout and a host of other fish?
Is it the same one who said we should only be allowed to freedive spearfish?

Its interesting to note that you brought up Grays reef.
Are you aware that the FRA made several trips up there and and needed representatives on hand for nearly every single meeting? Even the CCA rep was outraged that The Marine Sanctuary people were trying to exclude spearfisherman with absolutely no scientific basis.
Are you aware the FRA nearly had to sue in order to have spearfishing allowed so long as hook and lining were to be allowed?

Last edited by RichT; 11-05-2007 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 11-05-2007, 01:07 PM   #53
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Re: DEMA Disappointment

[quote=RichT;601392]Im curious who these "spearfisherman" are as well.
Is it the same spearfisherman who said we should not be allowed to spear snook, permit, Redfish, trout and a host of other fish?
Is it the same one who said we should only be allowed to freedive spearfish?
QUOTE]

I think it might be the same spearfishermen that told Mr.Crabtree that they felt out Gag bag limits where two high.
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Old 11-05-2007, 01:19 PM   #54
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Re: DEMA Disappointment

Quote:
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Im curious who these "spearfisherman" are as well.
Likewise. Taken at face value, Wookie's statement seems absurd. Is there a more complete explanation that would make it seem reasonable?
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Old 11-05-2007, 01:29 PM   #55
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Re: DEMA Disappointment

The public comment meeting held in New Orleans (that I did not attend) was attended by Darrell Walker, owner of True Blue Watersports in Lake Charles, LA (he has a charter boat, and is an avid spearfisherman), you can also talk to Mike Cryer of Hydrosports Scuba in Lake Jackson, TX (hydrohunter on this board). When the Gulf Diving, LLC charterboats were owned by the previous owner, spearfishing was performed from the boats, but NEVER in the Flower Gardens, only on the rigs on the way home. Texas is a different animal than Florida, and with all on the artificial habitat available to us, most don't feel the need to also spear on the natural bottom, leaving a "set-aside" if you will for re-population of grouper, etc that spawn on the reef. As Mike Baronowski said, most of the fishing done at the Flower Gardens consists of recreational catch of Wahoo and Kings by hook and line, and commercial snapper boats fishing for grouper using bandit rigs. The statement about the headboat catching over 50 (the number was over 70 in 2 days) of Marbled Grouper is true, but did not happen in the sanctuary. Most of the headboat operators do not travel as far as the Flower Gardens.
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Old 11-05-2007, 04:06 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wookie View Post
The public comment meeting held in New Orleans (that I did not attend) was attended by Darrell Walker, owner of True Blue Watersports in Lake Charles, LA (he has a charter boat, and is an avid spearfisherman), you can also talk to Mike Cryer of Hydrosports Scuba in Lake Jackson, TX (hydrohunter on this board). When the Gulf Diving, LLC charterboats were owned by the previous owner, spearfishing was performed from the boats, but NEVER in the Flower Gardens, only on the rigs on the way home. Texas is a different animal than Florida, and with all on the artificial habitat available to us, most don't feel the need to also spear on the natural bottom, leaving a "set-aside" if you will for re-population of grouper, etc that spawn on the reef. As Mike Baronowski said, most of the fishing done at the Flower Gardens consists of recreational catch of Wahoo and Kings by hook and line, and commercial snapper boats fishing for grouper using bandit rigs. The statement about the headboat catching over 50 (the number was over 70 in 2 days) of Marbled Grouper is true, but did not happen in the sanctuary. Most of the headboat operators do not travel as far as the Flower Gardens.
Good to have your input Wookie. I do not know who you are, but you apparently have some historical factual knowledge of the Texas Flower Gardens situation and are posting it in a polite, non-inflamatory manner. I appreciate your speaking up on this thread. Many times on Spearboard, I see a tempest in a teapot generated over speculation. Improving our historical knowledge of how things came to be and how tradeoffs may or may not have ocurred is quite useful. Thanks for participating.
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Old 11-05-2007, 04:20 PM   #57
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Re: DEMA Disappointment

I wouldnt be against any sanctuary designation for a place that is truly in need of it. I dont think many here would. We all benefit from healthy fisheries. Im all for Looe Key, Penekamp Park, ect... . That being said, I am against the current environmental frenzy of being given an inch and taking a thousand yards. The aforementioned places were small, and certainly susceptible to overfishing. That is far from the case with the Middlegrounds. Im not positive but I think closing the Grounds would be the area equivalent to closing the entire Lower Keys. Then add The Elbow and whatever other famous fishing spots the mysterious people behind the "Islands in the Stream" decide to add to thier personal shopping list. No one should be able to sit down on their couch and arbitrarily hand pick giant sections of public water that they want closed to the public. These areas belong to everyone, not the anti-fishing contigient. There are measures being taken to address "over-fishing" of gags without area closures.

The Middlegrounds
1. Longlining already prohibited!
2. 70 miles from land at its closest. Not a place the everyday fisherman hits on Saturday afternoon, especially with gas prices this high. .
3. Grouper fishing closed for a month a year already.
4. If the bag limit goes lower on gags, even fewer people are likely to make the long voyage out there.
5.. Throw in days that the sea conditions are unfavorable you have substantial protection already in place.

This place is not overfished and not being subjected to unsustainable fishing or detrimental environmental pressure. Shouldnt this be a criteria for consideration of sanctuary status? If it isnt, then exactly who gets to decide where the public can and cannot fish? The anti-fishing lobby and their hired "scientists"?

Where is that going to lead us?
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Old 11-05-2007, 04:56 PM   #58
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Re: DEMA Disappointment

I would love to able to trust the folks who make regulations to build a sustainable fishery...a problem I see is that once they make the move and the fishery comes back to a good level they don't reinstate the old regs or adjust them to allow a larger catch. My thoughts stem from Redfish & Snook & Goliaths regs...and even the manatee...now that they're doing good we close our swimming & boating areas for them!!!

Someone tell me if I'm wrong in this view...
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Old 11-05-2007, 05:27 PM   #59
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Re: DEMA Disappointment

No arguments with you, Ed. As far as I know, Sanctuary designation is conferred on an area to protect a natural resource. Flower Garden Banks was to protect the corals, and all prohibitions there were specifically for coral protection, NOT for fish population protection. The prohibited activities are bottom longlining, trawling, and spearfishing was included because of the damage that a spear can do when it hits the coral (anecdotal reasons, not my own). Anchoring is also prohibited. Other sanctuaries are designated because of their shipwrecks (Thunder Bay, Monitor, and Stillwagen). Other sanctuaries are there to protect whales and marine mammals. I have not heard of anyplace being designated a sanctuary solely to protect a fish population. In more recent times, the decision has been made to protect the ecosystem rather than a part of it, hence the limits on fishing. I am not enough of an insider to know what decisions are being made at what level, but I do know that many fishing limit decisions are made based on what happened to the New England fisheries (cod, groundfish) and California fisheries (Abalone), and a fear that lowering the population so that a viable commercial fishery is no longer possible.

Tony, I am the charter operator that carries half the scuba divers to the Flower Gardens. I also carry Jerry Ault to the Dry Tortugas every other year. I have carried Felica Coleman and Chris Koenig to steamboat lumps. Please don't lob mortars at my boat, it's just a job. I must say, however, that since the 2000 closure at Dry Tortugas, we sure see a lot more legal sized fish within the sanctuary than we used to before 2000.
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Old 11-05-2007, 05:32 PM   #60
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Re: DEMA Disappointment

Really good point, Len. When the federal goverment takes away a freedom (even the freedom to hunt a single species of fish) it is almost impossible to overturn. It becomes a precedent. In legal terms, Stare Decisis.

Some of the pending legislation that many are promoting as "compromise" or "quid pro quo" are not management moves (raising or lowering a bag limit, changing total length of fish, shortening a season) but new legal precedents that open the door to increased federal regulation and decreased state control (and less voice for the residents of the state in question) for the use of our taxpayer Gulf resources.

Stand your ground and support those that do. I don't give sharks fish from my stringer, and I don't concede regulators our fishing rights. The sound of feeding just brings more in.
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