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Old 08-08-2017, 05:25 PM   #76
spearq8
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Re: Pathos trigger Booster kit is here

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Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
Well I guess your point is that the Biller and other mechs I mentioned are not pushed to their absolute limit so the issues of wear are minimized?

I'm not trying to compare guns or range or number of bands, but rather the idea that some mechs (according to you) apparently need almost constant maintenance, while the guns I have mentioned can work - as designed - for a long time.
When I mention problems with triggers, I am talking about reverse triggers ... I just think that conventional triggers are too much of a compromise in a modern gun design and really haven't tested them that much. The ABBILLER is NOT a reverse trigger, and its default 2 x 16mm band loading with low power setting would not suffer the problems you see with the Pathos. That type of trigger does not allow a gun to be configured with a high handle, and that is why the ABBILLER is a low handle gun. To get the ABBILLER to shoot with equivalent power of a souped up Pathos 130 ... and still be controllable and accurate ... you would probably need to add 5 or maybe 10 pounds or of mass to the gun ... then a few more bands. Even then I am not sure it would offset the twisting recoil caused by having a handle that is low. The Pathos 130 weighs 1.7lbs ... and can shoot an 8mm shaft with 2 bands with more power than many 4 banded low handled guns weighing 10x more . One of the things that makes that possible is that it uses a reverse trigger. A reverse trigger can be designed very shallow ... thus it allows you to place the handle high in the CG of the gun ... making very high loadings that still keep the gun accurate and under control possible.

That is why there is such a big effort to make a reverse trigger work well ... it not only adds additional band stretch for the same footprint, it also allows the design of much lighter guns that are more powerful and more accurate than were possible with conventional triggers.
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Old 08-08-2017, 06:48 PM   #77
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Re: Pathos trigger Booster kit is here

Let's not talk about ABBiller, but as jfjf said, it is not normal for me to open gun mechanisms to polish them nor failure of them under normal loads. And I have been around for a while now...
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Old 08-08-2017, 08:00 PM   #78
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Re: Pathos trigger Booster kit is here

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Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
The ABBILLER is NOT a reverse trigger, ..........
With its sear lever pivot at the rear of the cassette I cannot see how that Sea Hornet/Biller mechanism is not a reverse trigger mechanism. The sear lever and trigger are switched around from the "standard" sear lever pivot at the front and the trigger pivot at the rear. Sure it is not a reverse trigger mechanism as the ones you are talking about here, but the guy who designed it, Wally Gibbins, told me the inspiration was to create a reverse of the then popular "Undersee" trigger mechanism. What makes it tall is it is a cam lock mechanism, the mechanism levers interlock, whereas many reverse trigger mechanisms bind their triggers on the cassette frame which allows the trigger pivot pin to be high in the trigger as the sear lever tip tries to turn the trigger into a blocking element traversing the frame.

Maybe a change in terminology is required to differentiate the types, but I will leave that to others.
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:05 AM   #79
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Re: Pathos trigger Booster kit is here

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Let's not talk about ABBiller, but as jfjf said, it is not normal for me to open gun mechanisms to polish them nor failure of them under normal loads. And I have been around for a while now...
Absolutely ... I had this problem the first time I tested the Pathos gun. Unlike some problems you get sometimes where you cannot repeat the problem at will, in this case to simulate the problem ... just shoot a few shots with the larger guns. Those guns were sold with the same trigger throughout the range. From 60cm guns all the way to 140cm guns. I can excuse the problem as a design oversight initially (things like that happen every once in a while), but what I don't understand is how Pathos can re-design the handle to a D'Angelo 3 handle ... and still use basically the same trigger. That is hard to excuse.

As for conventional triggers, I have not heard of similar galling problems. The normal ABBILLER triggers were not as good as the LTD versions for some reason. Also Riffe Euro triggers are absoutely perfect as are the Neptonics both Reef and Tuna triggers ... used those a lot. Of course everyone who has shot spearguns enough will face a problem with maybe a trigger tripping or firing by itself due to improper engaging or a safety not working or a shaft not engaging in the mech ... but those are usually not something you can get to happen in a predictable manner and just a one off thing that happens due to misuse or a freak one off manufacturing defect.

There is a certain point where the sears are at enough pressure when they slide over that causes galling. What that threshhold is I really don't know. Reverse triggers get to those pressures with less load than conventional triggers as a reverse trigger uses no levers. I tried different Stainless Steels including hardened 17-4 PH SS, but that just pushed the threshold a little higher (not much). I then figured the magic solution would be to use Nitronic 60 SS as it was specifically designed to handle galling. I was unable to find Nitronic 60 plates to cut sears out of so for a long while this was something that needed to be tested. Fortunately Tinman managed to somehow get his hands on Nitronic 60, but his results showed that this also suffered from galling. Some exotic hardening treatments proved extremely promising, but all had some drawback ... mostly a cost drawback. Thus the development of the double roller reverse trigger that dealt with both the damage caused by slamming of shafts into sear problem and the galling problem of frontal sears.
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Old 08-09-2017, 06:10 PM   #80
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Re: Pathos trigger Booster kit is here

I have a gun that has a copy of the D'Angelo I handle with 2 x 14 mm short bands and it works perfectly. Very smooth and short trigger pull. And it is reverse. I think it has more to do with the geometry of the parts than it's hardness. There's several mechanisms in the market that work very well over the years.

BTW, I hate how the D'angelo II feels in my hand.

This one:




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Old 08-10-2017, 02:45 AM   #81
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Re: Pathos trigger Booster kit is here

Yes geometry can help ... the less the sears have to slide over each other the less apparent galling is ... but it is there and you can only push things so much before that "slide" distance becomes dangerous and a shaft can slip the sear. With the Pathos sear kit for the Pathos Mario did 3 main things ... he changed the geometry so that there was no "uplift" before the shaft sear drops ... also reduced the distance the two sears rub over each other ... and of course widened the sear from 5mm to 6mm by using up the very loose tolerances that were in the Pathos box. Add to that the fact that the metal used was a harder 304 SS rather than the soft 316 SS used by Pathos and you got a huge improvement. This gets the trigger back to how it should have been in the first place. But galling will still happen at a much lower extent, it just won't be apparent and you probably wouldn't even notice it unless you get a new gun that still has crisp sears ... plus the chance of the gun completely seizing is totally eliminated. If you took the gun to the pool you will also not be able to get good groupings. Today I can immediately notice a trigger that is getting scratched ... the shot just doesn't come off at exactly the time you expect it to. The less predictable a trigger let off is the more accuracy will suffer. The higher you load the gun the more this problem happens.

I agree the D'Angelo 2 handle is not good except for maybe 1 out of 1000 people. The distance of trigger to palm is way too long ... that makes the recoil go straight into your thumb. The D'Angelo 1 handle is about 1cm closer. The D'Angelo 3 they fixed that distance back to how it was with the D'Angelo 1. The D'Angelo 1 also has a plastic trigger sear, so it doesn't suffer from galling and works really well ... ironic that the D'Angelo 2 handle with SS trigger was supposed to be an upgrade made for more powerful setups, but it really is just a downgrade
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Old 11-27-2017, 04:48 AM   #82
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Re: Pathos trigger Booster kit is here

I hate the trigger on my Pathos Sniper roller. It is a nice gun otherwise but after only half a season of use the trigger starts to feel increasingly hard to pull and the gun is only 95!
The upgrade seems an improvement but I am playing with the idea of installing the ermes sub double roller instead. I might have to adjust the trigger pocket but that doesn't scare me since I have the tools, machinery and experience to do so accurately. Before I order parts I would love to hear any recommendations or advice you guys may have.


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Old 11-27-2017, 07:31 AM   #83
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Re: Pathos trigger Booster kit is here

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Originally Posted by kodama View Post
I hate the trigger on my Pathos Sniper roller. It is a nice gun otherwise but after only half a season of use the trigger starts to feel increasingly hard to pull and the gun is only 95!
The upgrade seems an improvement but I am playing with the idea of installing the ermes sub double roller instead. I might have to adjust the trigger pocket but that doesn't scare me since I have the tools, machinery and experience to do so accurately. Before I order parts I would love to hear any recommendations or advice you guys may have.


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Didn't Majd mention somewhere that Mario might be working on a slimmer version of the the double roller mech and one that would be a straight replacement for the Pathos? Or is my mind playing tricks?
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:40 PM   #84
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Re: Pathos trigger Booster kit is here

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Didn't Majd mention somewhere that Mario might be working on a slimmer version of the the double roller mech and one that would be a straight replacement for the Pathos? Or is my mind playing tricks?


If that is correct that would be stellar! The season is over for me so I could wait a few months. Can anyone confirm or elaborate? Thanks.


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Old 11-27-2017, 03:18 PM   #85
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Re: Pathos trigger Booster kit is here

+1

dbl roll mech for the Pathos would be great!!!
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:10 PM   #86
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Re: Pathos trigger Booster kit is here

There will be a perfect solution for a Pathos trigger or similar trigger soon. Whether it is a double roller or other solution, still remains to be seen. I will test both and choose what works best. Problem with Pathos triggers or similar triggers is that they only have about 6.8mm room for sear width. It makes it very difficult to implement something similar to the traditional double roller front sear ... but this is a technical problem and usually there is a technical solution. So far things look really good and I have no doubt all problems with reverse triggers will be solved once and for all very soon.
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Old 11-28-2017, 04:10 AM   #87
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Re: Pathos trigger Booster kit is here

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Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
There will be a perfect solution for a Pathos trigger or similar trigger soon. Whether it is a double roller or other solution, still remains to be seen. I will test both and choose what works best. Problem with Pathos triggers or similar triggers is that they only have about 6.8mm room for sear width. It makes it very difficult to implement something similar to the traditional double roller front sear ... but this is a technical problem and usually there is a technical solution. So far things look really good and I have no doubt all problems with reverse triggers will be solved once and for all very soon.


That is lovely news! In that case I will save myself the effort of tinkering and wait until your solution is available. Could we expect that trigger before next season let's say April or is that too optimistic? Otherwise I may have to look into a temporary solution. I promised myself not to deal with that original frustrating trigger any more. The creep and grittiness has become...


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Old 02-21-2018, 10:52 PM   #88
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Re: Pathos trigger Booster kit is here

anyone heard any update re dbl roll mech for the Pathos?

the non-roll mech for Pathos on Mario's site looks great, but holding out for rumoured dbl roll mech as thats what ive got got in my other guns, nice to have identical pull and break btwn guns eh


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+1

dbl roll mech for the Pathos would be great!!!
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Old 02-22-2018, 06:33 AM   #89
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Re: Pathos trigger Booster kit is here

The new mech is on it’s way to my postbox. I suspect to receive it next week but I am not sure when I can test it. I will post pictures soon when I receive the mech. The picture below is the one Mario sent to me. I probably will start a new tread just about this mech.


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Old 02-22-2018, 06:46 AM   #90
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Re: Pathos trigger Booster kit is here




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