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Old 06-17-2018, 08:51 AM   #1
ARK
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Lion fish population declining?

Observation from my neck of the waters ( Sebastian Inlet): noticed significant decline of Lion fish population. When we started targeting them couple of years ago we used to get 75-100 lbs a trip. Over last couple of weeks we only got 5-10 lbs. We used to see them on every dive, now we see them every 2-3 dives and usually a couple of fish on the reef. Are our removal efforts so efficient or some other factors are taking tool on their population? I am posting in both, East coast and Invasive Species forums becasue I am interested in local observations.
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Old 06-17-2018, 09:54 AM   #2
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Re: Lion fish population declining?

I see the decline as well. I lend it to the fact that they now have a decent price on their head.. im sure a couple native species are figuring out they can eat them as well, probably while the lionfish are small.
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Old 06-17-2018, 11:40 AM   #3
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Re: Lion fish population declining?

I’ve noticed a decline in the Keys after the hurricane. I’ve also heard they’ve just moved to deeper water
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Old 06-17-2018, 04:48 PM   #4
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Re: Lion fish population declining?

We talk with commercial LF hunters in the keys, Panhandle and east coast. Everyone's numbers are down about 15 - 25%. More importantly is what's happening to the average size. It's down almost half. The FWRI and Sedar guys we're working with are getting tons of data. Come to the huge LF summit Oct 2 -4 in Cocoa, that's when the data and research summary will be released and presented.

If you really want to see something wild,,wait til you see the newest bug numbers {standard data, not the Monday July 2nd shocker coming up}
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Old 06-17-2018, 05:00 PM   #5
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Re: Lion fish population declining?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnoly View Post
We talk with commercial LF hunters in the keys, Panhandle and east coast. Everyone's numbers are down about 15 - 25%. More importantly is what's happening to the average size. It's down almost half. The FWRI and Sedar guys we're working with are getting tons of data. Come to the huge LF summit Oct 2 -4 in Cocoa, that's when the data and research summary will be released and presented.

If you really want to see something wild,,wait til you see the newest bug numbers {standard data, not the Monday July 2nd shocker coming up}
Cool info, thanks.
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Old 06-17-2018, 05:29 PM   #6
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Re: Lion fish population declining?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnoly View Post
We talk with commercial LF hunters in the keys, Panhandle and east coast. Everyone's numbers are down about 15 - 25%. More importantly is what's happening to the average size. It's down almost half. The FWRI and Sedar guys we're working with are getting tons of data. Come to the huge LF summit Oct 2 -4 in Cocoa, that's when the data and research summary will be released and presented.

If you really want to see something wild,,wait til you see the newest bug numbers {standard data, not the Monday July 2nd shocker coming up}
Give us a hint on the lobster numbers
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Old 06-17-2018, 08:52 PM   #7
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Re: Lion fish population declining?

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Give us a hint on the lobster numbers
The big secret for ALL FISH numbers is going to be published July 2nd. Now that they are doing rec survey's by mail/electronic instead of phone calls, it's a big jump. They have no money and time to hold new Sedar meetings and Magnuson-Stevens (M/S) mandates "best available" numbers which will be 7/2. The Eco's want to just plug in the new 7/2 higher catch numbers without changing the total ACL(annual catch limit) so it results in a smaller slice of the pie. They want the Rec's daily catch numbers reduced for ALL FISH. They know that 7/2 is a holiday week with few people online so hoping it will be a... quiet riot. Then just blame everything on M/S.

For lobster,,,it's the big hit of IRMA !!! But we really need to see the new updated numbers from the coming July 2nd publication and if they change it. Miniature baby lobsters that grow to legal aren't born in Florida and lobster larva released in FL doesn't stay in Florida unlike fish. So IMHO, Rec bugs should stay the same (but won't know until 7/2)

Here are the bug numbers so far, look at the change last year:
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Lobster_Landings2017-2018.pdf (150.9 KB, 204 views)
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Old 06-18-2018, 05:32 AM   #8
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Re: Lion fish population declining?

I've experienced the lionfish population decline from where I hunt also. I've fed small lionfish to goliaths, and they eat them just fine. I've noticed the larger lionfish are starting to get scared of hunters, they try to hide and swim away instead of just sitting there like a few years ago.

Johnoly, are you suggesting we will experience reduced rec bag limits because of the better rec survey data showing a higher rec landing?
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:32 AM   #9
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Re: Lion fish population declining?

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...Johnoly, are you suggesting we will experience reduced rec bag limits because of the better rec survey data showing a higher rec landing?
Yes, but the biggest problem is they are not going to go back and increase the total ACL (ie increase the size of the population pie). Just plug in the higher rec numbers which will trigger AM(accountability measures). AM's were established years ago and when OFL numbers (overfishing limits) are hit, they automatically trigger AM's which is closure / reduced season / reduced catch.

Again there is no money or time to go back and study / increase total ACL. And MS mandates immediate corrective action by law. I'm not saying what the 7/2 numbers are yet, but there up.
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Old 06-25-2018, 07:06 AM   #10
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Re: Lion fish population declining?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnoly View Post
Yes, but the biggest problem is they are not going to go back and increase the total ACL (ie increase the size of the population pie). Just plug in the higher rec numbers which will trigger AM(accountability measures). AM's were established years ago and when OFL numbers (overfishing limits) are hit, they automatically trigger AM's which is closure / reduced season / reduced catch.

Again there is no money or time to go back and study / increase total ACL. And MS mandates immediate corrective action by law. I'm not saying what the 7/2 numbers are yet, but there up.
I’m kinda confused as to why they should increase the ACL because they have found out that the recreational sector is actually killing more fish. ACL is determined by the acceptable amount of fish that can be taken out of an ecosystem so why would that change because we now know more fish are being taken out than previously estimated? Maybe that would explain why we still see decreasing numbers in certain fish stocks even though we have “scientific” measures in place to prevent overfishing?
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:29 PM   #11
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Re: Lion fish population declining?

{ My apologies in advance for the use of so many acronym letters like ACL, OFL etc. But in working with SEDAR and FWRI, so many people were throwing out different words to mean the same thing but everyone was getting confused. So SEDAR established a list of agreed upon acronyms that everyone understands exactly what that number represents and that's why we use acronyms instead of words.}



Quote:
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ACL is determined by the acceptable amount of fish that can be taken out of an ecosystem
ABC is actually the amount of fish that can be taken out of the ecosystem before harm. ACL is set below that so no harm is done


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...I’m kinda confused as to why they should increase the ACL because they have found out that the recreational sector is actually killing more fish.
All of the models start with determining the total Biomass. This is the hardest number to agree on... "how many total fish of that species are out there". That number comes from the models which include a bunch of different parameters. One of those key parameters is both the commercial and recreational landings added together.

With the new electronic reporting data, they are finding out there are more fish than they knew existed before. Biomass is actually higher. It's not like the recreationals just magically increased their numbers by 10%-20% or 30% in just the last 2 years with no other reason than electronic reporting. So there is more fish in the biomass, but how many? That's what SEDAR does. They go back and determine the new biomass number based on the new electronic reporting.

But since there is no money or time for SEDAR, the Magnuson Steven's law mandates that if the higher new landings exceed OFL then the the AM-accountability measures MUST be put in place. Then everyone can argue about it later (Eco's, Comm's, Rec's, etc)

None of us will really know anything until next Monday July 2nd when the numbers are published. I'm hoping they give us current OFL, ABC & ACL along with both the new numbers and the old numbers for Comm landings, & Rec landings all on the same page so it's easy to compare and see what's new. We'll see on Monday.
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Old 06-19-2018, 04:01 AM   #12
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Re: Lion fish population declining?

So every past rec landings data set has been under-represented because of inaccurate rec survey data? But the TACL remains the same, even though the data gathering metrics have changed and shown the past data and limits to be inaccurate. Great $cience.

And we are forced to accept this $cience because: the Law says so, and this governmental agency doesn't have the time/money to do the job it is supposed to do.

How about we change the Law? Laws can be changed/amended/repealed the same way they are written, by writing words on paper.

What is the name of this governmental agency that claims it doesn't have the time or money to do its job? This claim can be challenged. A look at this governmental agency's Financial Report will disrobe the Emperor's Clothes.

What are the names of the elected officials of this Governmental Agency? Lets make the community aware of who is behind this fraud.

These excuses of "but the Law says this so we can't do anything" and "we have no time/money to do our job" are political propaganda and fraud.
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Old 06-19-2018, 11:39 AM   #13
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Re: Lion fish population declining?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea_Bass View Post
So every past rec landings data set has been under-represented because of inaccurate rec survey data? But the TACL remains the same, even though the data gathering metrics have changed and shown the past data and limits to be inaccurate. Great $cience.

And we are forced to accept this $cience because: the Law says so, and this governmental agency doesn't have the time/money to do the job it is supposed to do.

How about we change the Law? Laws can be changed/amended/repealed the same way they are written, by writing words on paper.

What is the name of this governmental agency that claims it doesn't have the time or money to do its job? This claim can be challenged. A look at this governmental agency's Financial Report will disrobe the Emperor's Clothes.

What are the names of the elected officials of this Governmental Agency? Lets make the community aware of who is behind this fraud.

These excuses of "but the Law says this so we can't do anything" and "we have no time/money to do our job" are political propaganda and fraud.
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Old 06-19-2018, 07:36 AM   #14
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Re: Lion fish population declining?

I have noticed a huge drop in Lions in NE FL as well. Used to see a ton of them on ledges out of Mayport and St. Aug, this year there has been a noticable drop. Places I used to see probably 100 lbs on a single ledge, may hold 5 fish. I don't necessarily think its from pressure though. I think the two years of major hurricanes has more to do with it and has just pushed them away. The bugs seem to be in no short supply around here. I've been seeing just as many if not more than in years past.
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:51 AM   #15
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Re: Lion fish population declining?

Sorry to see this get derailed. OP, I have noticed a huge decline in numbers and size. The big ones are very rare where I spear. I used to take a lion hotel and polespear on every drop, and fill it, now that is a waste of time. $6.00 per pound and no reef permit required to collect fish = greatly reduced populations. JMHO.
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