Home Tournaments Calendar Weather Merchandise Sponsors

Go Back   Spearboard.com - The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Boating Social Media Forum > Spearfishing Gear > All About Guns

All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-27-2011, 08:03 AM   #1
popgun pete
Registered User
 
popgun pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,245
1943 enclosed track metal body band gun!

Some years ago I came across this French patent (see attached) for a band gun based on a rectangular metal tube body. It was an addition to the original speargun patent which showed a rather bulky looking timber gun. That first gun was not a particularly interesting design, so the two inventors apparently decided to return to the drawing board and came up with this new version which owes very little to their first effort. The gun may actually have been manufactured, it looks sufficiently detailed in its drawings, but I have never seen anything that looks like it. The most interesting aspect is that this is an enclosed track, mid-handle band gun; the body tube is rather like a Riffe "Metaltech" stock in shape, only the cross-sectional area of the tube appears to be somewhat smaller and it is intended to be a metal sheet fabricated item, not an alloy extrusion. Check out the sliding and rocking internal connecting arm that links the sear lever, trigger and automatic line release lever, bearing in mind that this gun is being proposed in 1943! Band attachments were then of the tied together rubber strand variety mounting over vertical curved posts on either side of the muzzle (the now familiar band ferrule system was only being invented by Rene Cavalero that same year, so these guys did not know about that development). Inventors Albert Dedieu and Charles Foglia lodged their patent application for this gun on 5th February 1943, but the French patent was only granted in December 1944 and published in October 1945. World War II had been in progress, so there was not much opportunity to make spearguns until the economic situation in France had returned to normal.

The spear shaft has a square tail end section which slides inside the square cross-section enclosed track, the twin tooth sear lever engaging notches on either side of this tail end section (reminiscent of the much later twin tooth used on the "In Depth Inc." sear lever). The rubber propulsion bands are trussed together sets on either side (see fig. 6) connecting to a right-angled rounded bolt head tail driving unit that drops in behind the spear tail after the spear is latched in place in the gun. Latching is achieved by first inserting the spear fully into the gun with the barrel inclined slightly upwards, then pulling the line release lever back which simultaneously resets the trigger mechanism and traps the spear tail in the sear box. I have drawn another diagram showing how this works and the linked movement of the various levers. A narrow longitudinal slot or window and a notch just behind it on the upper edge of the long rocking arm engage respectively the trigger pivot pin and a second pin (serving as the catch) inside the folded metal trigger body. The forward curving line wrap post is to prevent the shooting line catching on the rear of the post from behind as the line loops pull free of the line release lever when it is in its forward release position. So operating this gun is somewhat like using a lever cocked rifle, the pointy lug on the front of the trigger finger guard facilitates holding the handle with a reverse grip in one hand as you crank the lever back with the other hand to cock the gun's trigger mechanism.

The gun appears to be not very powerful by today's standards, but it would be an interesting exercise to fabricate something like this as it represents a design which was headed in a different direction to the usual post-war spearguns. The angled bolt head drive unit looks like it could bind on the track of the barrel slot if it tipped over during its sliding movement, but all the gun really needs is wishbone tabs or pins on the shaft to make it a more realistic proposition. I doubt that the gun was intended to be a floater as it would have been contemporary with the then established spring guns, all sinkers, which first appeared with Kramarenko's gun in 1937.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	D&F patent diagrams.png
Views:	1993
Size:	41.6 KB
ID:	161527   Click image for larger version

Name:	D&F 1943 schematic.png
Views:	653
Size:	23.9 KB
ID:	161528  

Last edited by popgun pete; 10-27-2011 at 03:40 PM.
popgun pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2011, 05:01 PM   #2
popgun pete
Registered User
 
popgun pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,245
Re: 1943 enclosed track metal body band gun!

One reason why I put this post up is that it shows the large angle that the sear lever has to rotate through to clear the spear tail notches if they are incorporated on either side of the shaft. Basically the twin sear teeth, there are two of them sitting side by side, have to drop the full depth of the shaft tail to release the shaft when the gun is fired. On a standard speargun the sear tooth drops half the shaft depth as the spear tail notch is only cut half-way through the shaft, particularly on the ninety degree spear tail notches. That is why on the "In Depth Incorporated" spearguns the spear tail is reduced in height by machining out virtually the bottom section of the shaft tail, it reduces the angle that the gun's sear lever has to rotate through for the twin sear teeth on those guns to release the shaft. Refer to http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=6866 for photos of the cut away spear tail.
popgun pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2011, 06:10 PM   #3
gettin'wet
Glaucus guides my spear
 
gettin'wet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Woodland Hills, CA
Age: 44
Posts: 921
Re: 1943 enclosed track metal body band gun!

Wow, very interesting and amusing read. Your explanations are awesome. Thanks for posting.

Those designers and fabricators were very capable in those days. My father has woodworking tools he purchased 2nd and 3rd hand from that era that are still running strong today.
__________________
- Asi Ifrah
"I'd rather dive than breathe"

..
gettin'wet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2012, 11:10 PM   #4
popgun pete
Registered User
 
popgun pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,245
Re: 1943 enclosed track metal body band gun!

This gun has at last been found in France. Photos to follow!
popgun pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 07:05 PM   #5
popgun pete
Registered User
 
popgun pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,245
Re: 1943 enclosed track metal body band gun!

These photos are supplied by the collector in France. This is a very important find. The bands are a later addition and the shaft tail has been equipped with a drive tab. The front sights are not fitted and the angled bolt spear tail driving unit is not used, but otherwise the gun is little changed.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1943 patent gun 1.jpg
Views:	586
Size:	117.8 KB
ID:	172957   Click image for larger version

Name:	1943 patent gun 2.jpg
Views:	695
Size:	109.6 KB
ID:	172958  
Attached Files
File Type: pdf FR53246page5.pdf (42.7 KB, 367 views)

Last edited by popgun pete; 06-01-2012 at 06:27 PM.
popgun pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 06:24 PM   #6
popgun pete
Registered User
 
popgun pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,245
Re: 1943 enclosed track metal body band gun!

Here is the earlier version with the schematic superimposed on top. Images are scaled to the height of the stock in both cases. The actual grip is slightly smaller, the patent image was probably stretched for clarity of the parts details. The gun was for use around rocks, hence its short length. L'Espadon is a Swordfish.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Dedieu Espadon superimposed.jpg
Views:	420
Size:	73.1 KB
ID:	173007   Click image for larger version

Name:	D&F L'Espadon rigged.jpg
Views:	382
Size:	42.8 KB
ID:	173018  

Last edited by popgun pete; 06-01-2012 at 11:55 PM. Reason: showing the stepped shooting line wraps
popgun pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2015, 03:56 PM   #7
popgun pete
Registered User
 
popgun pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,245
Re: 1943 enclosed track metal body band gun!

As a postscript to this story check out photos of the gun here in its original cast handle configuration with the inventor's name on the grip, albeit with a more conventional band system than the one initially envisaged.

http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=185440

The bent bolt head spear tail driving unit and front aiming sights were probably abandoned once production started, however it is interesting to note that the gun was popular enough to warrant a second version being produced as first seen above with the cross-hatched handle scales and a plate trigger replacing the folded metal unit in the original.

This earlier gun is now in a museum devoted to Skin-Diving History. It is a very interesting design produced at the dawn of spearfishing with mechanical energy storage weapons, yet externally it looks surprisingly modern. Ironic that it took nearly 60 years for something similar to appear, i.e. the "Metaltech" from Riffe, with this form of stock.

Last edited by popgun pete; 10-09-2015 at 06:00 PM. Reason: more info
popgun pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2015, 10:15 PM   #8
popgun pete
Registered User
 
popgun pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,245
Re: 1943 enclosed track metal body band gun!

I made this drawing for clarification when someone wanted the original propulsion system explained, so thought I might as well add it here.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	D&F views.jpg
Views:	694
Size:	76.1 KB
ID:	222769  
popgun pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 12:04 AM   #9
Snapper Mangler
Registered User
 
Snapper Mangler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: stuart fl
Age: 37
Posts: 647
Re: 1943 enclosed track metal body band gun!

Wow
Snapper Mangler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2020, 04:51 PM   #10
popgun pete
Registered User
 
popgun pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,245
Re: 1943 enclosed track metal body band gun!

As a matter of interest here is the first effort from these two inventors, an enclosed track, wing tailed shaft band gun from 1942.
The common feature with the follow-up design is the automatic line release for multiple line wraps. In this gun a slide with a window that controls the line release arm is fired by pulling the trigger, the slide being propelled by an elastic cord.

Last edited by popgun pete; 06-07-2020 at 05:20 PM. Reason: extra comment
popgun pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:26 AM.


The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Social Media Forum Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2014 Spearboard.com