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Old 08-09-2013, 03:40 PM   #76
laguna80
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Re: Trained Freedivers

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Originally Posted by freedivemd View Post
@laguna80 - If your diving in such a restricted manner (and I do get why you are doing this) then why not just tether yourself to a float?
Pretty much what rockymountainspearo said. Tethering to a float doesn't actually save you in any way (and in all likelihood increases the chances of entanglement), whereas a buddy can grab you and keep you and/or bring you to the surface.
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Old 08-09-2013, 04:13 PM   #77
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Re: Trained Freedivers

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Originally Posted by freedivemd View Post
A problem with the audible signal is that it is extremely difficult to determine the direction - underwater sounds appear to be coming from all directions at once. A flashing light would work in really clear water if it were bright enough to overcome ambient light. But in murky water the particulate matter would scatter or alltogther absorb the light.
I can understand that. I can certainly see the strobe effect being disorienting when diffused. The audio signal would not be for location, as much as for letting someone with an ear in the water know that a diver is in distress. If we're talking dive buddies, that could alert a dive buddy who is unable to see the diver due to vis, or one of the "same area - same time" dive partners to high tail it to the divers float and get down that float line asap.

I don't think this is a particularly good or efficient idea, I have just had OC's situation on my mind alot recently, and I was thinking of entanglement. If it was low vis, even with a dive buddy, only the extended passage of time would let the buddy know something was wrong. If you had your gun, you could yank on your float line, but the buddy would have to be holding it, (which isn't SOP, as far as I know). At least this would be a way to signal distress...

I like the bubbler idea, it seems to be useful, even in low vis, and would lead directly to the diver. One issue I could see would be if the diver is no longer beneath the dive buddy, and the dive buddy is not looking around, the bubble column could be beyond the vis restriction. If there was a buzzer, or beeper, the buddy would know he needs to look around.

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Old 08-09-2013, 04:26 PM   #78
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Re: Trained Freedivers

If any of you are ever in the situation that someone goes missing in the water, MARK THAT SPOT! A good last seen point can make a huge difference in the outcome of a search or recovery operation.

If you are on a boat, drop an "H"float, weight on a string with a soda bottle float, your weight belt with floatline and float, whatever you have. An anchor with a life jacket tied to the line can also work well. If you know exactly where you were when they were last seen, mark the spot and take a compass heading to their lask known location.

If you are interested in becoming a better witness, please send me a PM and I will give you a little drill you can try with family and friends. It is pretty eye opening.
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Old 08-09-2013, 04:31 PM   #79
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Re: Trained Freedivers

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Originally Posted by freedivemd View Post
A problem with the audible signal is that it is extremely difficult to determine the direction - underwater sounds appear to be coming from all directions at once. A flashing light would work in really clear water if it were bright enough to overcome ambient light. But in murky water the particulate matter would scatter or alltogther absorb the light.
I was a bit vague in my last post for that I apologize. I was thinking in a multi function type set up. With audible functions and transceiver/receiver type. This is a wiki link to the type I have for snowboarding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalanche_transceiver. I would love to one day see a set up that could be clipped to a divers belt or worn on the body. Purpose one would be in case of an under water emergency I could activate it in a hurry sending out an audible signal letting my buddy on the surface know I am tangled or something of that nature. I have also thought it would be nifty to have this audible function on a programmable down timer. Say my bottom time is 1.5 mins. I could program the audible part to go off just after 1.5 mins. The second feature I have been thinking on for this device is. Just like the beacon I mentioned. If the down timer goes off and is not disabled in a set amount of time the devices starts emitting a signal that can be picked up from another hand held device (receiver) and through a set of directional pings would direct rescue divers or my buddy to the location of my body. These are just idea that rattle around in my head. I am sorry If I am off base or offend anyone on this touchy subject. A short video also provided on the beacon. BCA Tracker Avalanche Beacon Review - YouTube
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:43 PM   #80
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Re: Trained Freedivers

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Originally Posted by Rocky Mountain Spearo View Post
^^^this.
Very well articulated.
Agree...
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:40 PM   #81
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Re: Trained Freedivers

People push it too much when they spearfish. You should come up with plenty of air, not gasping for air. This is spearfishing not a freedive competition.
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:56 PM   #82
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Re: Trained Freedivers

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Originally Posted by Rocky Mountain Spearo View Post
^^^this.
Very well articulated.
Agreed

I'd like to add one thing. Most life insurance companies do not pay out on missing persons for years, as much as 10. I can't imagine the financial hardship and perhaps frustration of OC's family if this is the case.

If you are going to be careless enough to dive solo, at least weight yourself properly so that, should you die in the water, your body can me more easily recovered and your family can at least recover the life insurance money. I know guys that wear the Freediver Recovery Vest for this very reason.

I'm not implying OC had too much weight, nobody knows that at this point. Just want to point out one of the more morbid realities of this situation that should at least be considered.
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:59 PM   #83
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Re: Trained Freedivers

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Originally Posted by Slamcorps View Post
I was a bit vague in my last post for that I apologize. I was thinking in a multi function type set up. With audible functions and transceiver/receiver type. This is a wiki link to the type I have for snowboarding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalanche_transceiver. I would love to one day see a set up that could be clipped to a divers belt or worn on the body. Purpose one would be in case of an under water emergency I could activate it in a hurry sending out an audible signal letting my buddy on the surface know I am tangled or something of that nature. I have also thought it would be nifty to have this audible function on a programmable down timer. Say my bottom time is 1.5 mins. I could program the audible part to go off just after 1.5 mins. The second feature I have been thinking on for this device is. Just like the beacon I mentioned. If the down timer goes off and is not disabled in a set amount of time the devices starts emitting a signal that can be picked up from another hand held device (receiver) and through a set of directional pings would direct rescue divers or my buddy to the location of my body. These are just idea that rattle around in my head. I am sorry If I am off base or offend anyone on this touchy subject. A short video also provided on the beacon. BCA Tracker Avalanche Beacon Review - YouTube

Sounds very similar to an FRV?
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Old 08-09-2013, 08:23 PM   #84
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Re: Trained Freedivers

I was under the impression the FRV was more of a time released or time plus depth flotation device coupled with a type of dive recording cpu. If not I'm sorry, I was in no way trying to hijack that particular system.
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Last edited by Slamcorps; 08-09-2013 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 08-09-2013, 08:51 PM   #85
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Re: Trained Freedivers

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I'm sure you learned in your class that the majority of blackouts occur at or near the surface. Even if you don't catch your buddy as soon as he surfaces, if he is weighted correctly (as you also learned during your class), if he blacks out on his way up, he should still float to the surface, where you have some time to rescue him before terminal gasp occurs. In OC's case, if it was, in fact a shallow water blackout that caused his death, then yes - if his buddy had been right above him it ABSOLUTELY could have made a difference. If it was entanglement, we'll never know if anything could have been done. I'm not blaming his buddy, because it wasn't his fault. OC was an adult who made his own decision to dive solo.

In moderate to heavy current, keeping track of your buddy's position and being close to him when he surfaces is difficult, especially where the surface and bottom currents differ, or if he is doing a lot of horizontal swimming. This is when a floatline really helps. Based on the length of the floatline and its angle/direction it's being pulled during the dive, you should have a very good idea of where your buddy will surface. When I spear, I prefer to use a reel, but in really bad vis I would definitely use a float/floatline.

Is this perfect? Absolutely not. But if you want to dive in low visibility, you have to do the best you can. The easiest thing to do is to say that buddy diving is useless in low vis, and so you're not going to bother with it. If you're willing to do it, you can still make your low-vis diving safer. Be open to different ideas and methods of diving. I realize that it's human nature to defend your current practices and be reluctant to admit that there's something that you could be doing better. When I say "you" I'm not referring to freedivemd or anybody in particular. I'm not calling anybody out, so I hope nobody takes offense to this. You're all big boys and girls, and can dive any way you wish. I'm just offering up my humble opinion.
Nicely put, my friend.
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:04 PM   #86
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Re: Trained Freedivers

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Originally Posted by nyspear View Post
I'm sure you learned in your class that the majority of blackouts occur at or near the surface. Even if you don't catch your buddy as soon as he surfaces, if he is weighted correctly (as you also learned during your class), if he blacks out on his way up, he should still float to the surface, where you have some time to rescue him before terminal gasp occurs. In OC's case, if it was, in fact a shallow water blackout that caused his death, then yes - if his buddy had been right above him it ABSOLUTELY could have made a difference. If it was entanglement, we'll never know if anything could have been done. I'm not blaming his buddy, because it wasn't his fault. OC was an adult who made his own decision to dive solo.

In moderate to heavy current, keeping track of your buddy's position and being close to him when he surfaces is difficult, especially where the surface and bottom currents differ, or if he is doing a lot of horizontal swimming. This is when a floatline really helps. Based on the length of the floatline and its angle/direction it's being pulled during the dive, you should have a very good idea of where your buddy will surface. When I spear, I prefer to use a reel, but in really bad vis I would definitely use a float/floatline.

i

Is this perfect? Absolutely not. But if you want to dive in low visibility, you have to do the best you can. The easiest thing to do is to say that buddy diving is useless in low vis, and so you're not going to bother with it. If you're willing to do it, you can still make your low-vis diving safer. Be open to different ideas and methods of diving. I realize that it's human nature to defend your current practices and be reluctant to admit that there's something that you could be doing better. When I say "you" I'm not referring to freedivemd or anybody in particular. I'm not calling anybody out, so I hope nobody takes offense to this. You're all big boys and girls, and can dive any way you wish. I'm just offering up my humble opinion.
i have what i feel is a better method for diving and survivin for most divers, although it may not apply to guys diving on the level some of you chose to operate at.. come up when you feel the need to breath. period.

save the reserves that your dive reflexs provide for emergencies only.

all the bubble trail buck rogers stuff and follow the float line stuff is a slim chance to hang your life on.

its simple just come the **** up to the surface when you first get the urge. make up for the shorter dive when you take your grandkids diving.

killian you are on target with your comments

hats off to all participants in this important conversation.

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Old 08-09-2013, 09:22 PM   #87
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Re: Trained Freedivers

My first urge to breathe can come at a point where I am very hypoxic. It is sometimes the case that I dont feel an urge to breathe for more than two minutes. I hate saying that in a public forum because then guys will dive with me and Im doing minute 30 dives sll day snd they're asking...but that's my ego. Sometimes my times are remarably short and other times they are comparatively quite long before any urge to breathe is felt.
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:34 PM   #88
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Re: Trained Freedivers

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Originally Posted by Slamcorps View Post
I was under the impression the FRV was more of a time released or time plus depth flotation device coupled with a type of dive recording cpu. If not I'm sorry, I was in no way trying to hijack that particular system.
It also has two separate manual inflate methods. The cpu isn't really a dive computer/recorder (need to double check), you set your dive window (depth and time). If either is exceeded then it auto inflates. It also has a mechanism for if one dives too early or passes out at the surface and sinks, it will auto inflate. Finally, it has a surface minder mode, where one has to push a button after a predetermined period of time (after ten seconds I believe), otherwise it auto inflates. The FRV is pretty all encompassing. I'm very impressed with mine (in case that wasn't obvious).
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:55 PM   #89
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Re: Trained Freedivers

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Originally Posted by Namor View Post
all the bubble trail buck rogers stuff and follow the float line stuff is a slim chance to hang your life on.
I agree with your message, (come up as you feel the need to breath), but the safety gear is purposeful and important too. Nobody craps on the FRV around here, and everyone carries a dive knife or shears, (or says they do).

The point of that stuff wasn't to take chances and stay down longer, it was to alert the surface buddy that you are in distress. So say I brushed against something and hooked myself in an awkward spot and I'm fighting panic as I try to figure out how to get my left arm to work the right way and clear myself. I would want a tool that would allow me to tell my dive buddy, "Hey! something's up!".

It sure would beat the common low vis buddy system that gets promoted around here; "We don't do it, because we can't see each other". At least you'd have something to look and/or listen for as the surface buddy.
------
I know someone who promotes old poacher rigs for fishing, like running a bunch of baited trebles off of heavy line between two cinder blocks and throwing them in near shore. People like that exist, people do things like that.

This really is a way, for me at least, of looking at the OC incident in hindsight and try to deal with it by asking, "what might have helped?" Would it have? Dunno. Does it matter now? No. Could it happen to me? ... God, I HOPE not!

scares me.
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