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Old 09-06-2019, 08:11 PM   #46
popgun pete
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Re: Fire on the Conception

Forget about apportioning blame, the key factor is the causes. Personally I don't believe anyone was at fault and the crew could have done nothing, the situation was beyond anyone, but something very different has happened here that could possibly happen again and that is what the experts will be working on.
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:44 PM   #47
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Re: Fire on the Conception

Is it Required to have a roaming nightwatchman on a charter boat this size? I hope it will be from here on. But is that a part of current Regulation?
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Old 09-06-2019, 09:40 PM   #48
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Re: Fire on the Conception

I worked a sport dive boat only once and I had watch from 0100 to 0500.
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Old 09-06-2019, 10:08 PM   #49
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Re: Fire on the Conception

...My son, the long range deckhand, believes the deck watch regulation applies to all charters for hire...am not sure....I woke up this morning with my brain rolling around about the battery/charging/explosion possibilities...airlines have passed regulations to deal with the problem...It may turn out that new maritime regulations are needed to catch up with modern technology.
... Battery explosions could explain one part of the mystery and account for the flash fire blocking off the galley stairwell exit so fast...Any of you up to date techies care to render an opinion? Me, I still prefer my 10-year old simple to use cell phone and a good compass to get me where I am going..In fifty years, I have only blown up one compass.....Then, again....dinosaurs became extinct..

Last edited by Bob Ballew; 09-06-2019 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 09-06-2019, 10:16 PM   #50
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Re: Fire on the Conception

So are YOU in compliance? Do you have a Kidde fire extinguisher with a plastic handle? You may be in violation of CG regs. I got a free replacement from Kidde.

https://content.govdelivery.com/acco...letins/1d9a568

Also, can anyone point to the reg about a roving 'night watchman'? I haven't been able to find it.
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Old 09-06-2019, 10:27 PM   #51
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Re: Fire on the Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Behslayer View Post
Is it Required to have a roaming nightwatchman on a charter boat this size? I hope it will be from here on. But is that a part of current Regulation?
Not sure about the roaming part but on overnighters I know they require a second captain. That captain is usually the one running the boat at night while the first captain sleeps. Its my understanding that one captain has to be awake even when at anchor. The Conception is berthed right next to the launch ramp I use. Pretty surreal scene when I launched Wednesday 5AM. FBI dive boats tied up at the end of each dock and a bunch of news vans in the parking lot.
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Old 09-06-2019, 10:46 PM   #52
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Re: Fire on the Conception

This is possibly the regulation involved:

https://ecfr.io/Title-46/sp46.3.78.78_130

Quote:
78.30-10 Supervised patrol.

(a) The provisions of this section shall apply to all vessels on an international voyage, and to all other vessels having berthed or stateroom accommodations for passengers. This section shall be applicable at all times when passengers are on board.

(b) Between the hours of 10 p.m. and 6 a.m., a supervised patrol shall be maintained so as to completely cover all parts of the vessel accessible to passengers or crew, excepting occupied sleeping accommodations and machinery spaces and similar spaces where a regular watch is maintained.

etc.
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Old 09-07-2019, 01:37 AM   #53
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Re: Fire on the Conception

From: Toxic fluoride gas emissions from lithium-ion battery fires https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5577247/

Lithium-ion batteries are a technical and a commercial success enabling a number of applications from cellular phones to electric vehicles and large scale electrical energy storage plants. The occasional occurrences of battery fires have, however, caused some concern especially regarding the risk for spontaneous fires and the intense heat generated by such fires15. While the fire itself and the heat it generates may be a serious threat in many situations, the risks associated with gas and smoke emissions from malfunctioning lithium-ion batteries may in some circumstances be a larger threat, especially in confined environments where people are present, such as in an aircraft, a submarine, a mine shaft, a spacecraft or in a home equipped with a battery energy storage system. The gas emissions has however only been studied to a very limited extent.

An irreversible thermal event in a lithium-ion battery can be initiated in several ways, by spontaneous internal or external short-circuit, overcharging, external heating or fire, mechanical abuse etc. This may result in a thermal runaway caused by the exothermal reactions in the battery610, eventually resulting in a fire and/or explosion. The consequences of such an event in a large Li-ion battery pack can be severe due to the risk for failure propagation1113. The electrolyte in a lithium-ion battery is flammable and generally contains lithium hexafluorophosphate (LiPF6) or other Li-salts containing fluorine. In the event of overheating the electrolyte will evaporate and eventually be vented out from the battery cells. The gases may or may not be ignited immediately. In case the emitted gas is not immediately ignited the risk for a gas explosion at a later stage may be imminent. Li-ion batteries release a various number of toxic substances1416 as well as e.g. CO (an asphyxiant gas) and CO2 (induces anoxia) during heating and fire. At elevated temperature the fluorine content of the electrolyte and, to some extent, other parts of the battery such as the polyvinylidene fluoride (PVdF) binder in the electrodes, may form gases such as hydrogen fluoride HF, phosphorus pentafluoride (PF5) and phosphoryl fluoride (POF3). Compounds containing fluorine can also be present as e.g. flame retardants in electrolyte and/or separator17, in additives and in the electrode materials, e.g. fluorophosphates18,19, adding additional sources of fluorine.
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Old 09-07-2019, 02:21 PM   #54
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Re: Fire on the Conception

Certain batteries are not allowed on commercial aircraft or various mail services... Just saying that if they wish to allow them, then create a safe storage for them on deck..... Gotta use this accident to rethink everything.
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Old 09-08-2019, 04:06 PM   #55
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Re: Fire on the Conception

An on duty watch would have completely changed the outcome, if not required, it should be. This scenario is one of the several reasons why it’s needed for the safety of passengers, and it’s negligent if all the crew is asleep. Whatever the cause, it took time for the fire to get established without accelerants, fires just don’t spread in seconds under those conditions. The smoke would have been visible had a person been awake, and a suppression effort could have been attempted. Batteries? Hard to believe this was the first of hundreds previous similar scenarios.
Smoke alarms? Photoelectric or ionization? (Operational and wired to the crew sleeping quarters/bridge?) Definitely would have made a difference even if all the crew were sleeping. The boat and crew are 100% liable, they failed to keep the passengers safe, especially since none were awake.
A sportfishing boat with 25 passengers recently ran aground on Mission Beach at 5am. Probably narrowly missing the jetty, it drove right up on the beach without a single person awake...completely unacceptable. Safety should be priority number one if you have paying passengers depending on the crew and boat competency. The best safety option is a crew watch in almost every possible scenario.
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Old 09-08-2019, 04:34 PM   #56
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Re: Fire on the Conception

Something everyone needs to read about lithium ion batteries.
https://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/mag...ry/hazards.asp
https://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/mag...-batteries.asp

Last edited by popgun pete; 09-08-2019 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 09-08-2019, 07:41 PM   #57
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Re: Fire on the Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntersmoon View Post
Smoke alarms? Definitely would have made a difference even if all the crew were sleeping.awake...completely unacceptable.
what is this funny white thing on the berth ceiling of the sister ship vision????
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attracti...7&ff=213529713
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Old 09-08-2019, 09:16 PM   #58
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Re: Fire on the Conception

I haven't been on the Spearboard for a while, but a friend told me about this thread. As an experienced diver and having been on the Conception more times than I can count in the past, like everyone else, I tried to figure out the possibilities of what could have happened. At first, I thought it was the O2 bottles to fill the tanks for Nitrox. That would explain the intense heat. But that idea got shot down, as I was made aware that they are not allowed to use those on the boats anymore. Then I thought it might be the propane tanks. Again, those are not allowed. What else could it be? I never knew that the boat had become an All-Electrical boat.

I haven't been on the Conception since 2012. After reading the responses in this thread up to this point, It have never occurred to me that this accident could have been caused by an exploding battery. I have read about incidents several times and they had been bad. I have only known and seen the result of one incident or fire from a exploding battery. The dive shop where I used to dive out of had this happen in the shop. The owner had put some batteries in a charger and had had them in there for a couple of days. They were those 3.7volt 18650 batteries and chargers from China. The owner of the dive shop had been out late that night. As he was heading home for the evening, he passed by the dive shop and saw white smoke coming out of the window of his office. He called the fire dept. and then tried to get inside. He could not get anywhere near his office, due to the intensity of the fire. Luckily, the fire station was only a half city block away and responded quickly.

Once the fire was out, being contained within the office only, the firefighters quickly found the source. The batteries. It only takes one to blow and then the rest go. The fire chief told the dive shop owner that the cheap batteries and chargers that are bought from China, have issues with over-charging the batteries and they commonly explode, if left in the charger too long.

Although there was damage to the office, the worst damage was done in the rest of the building. Everything was covered in black smoke film. It was on the gear, the ceiling, the floor and the walls. Anyone who had been in their for any length of time would have had smoke inhalation issues, if not died from it (no one was in building). So, I can see this same thing as possibly causing the fire and possibly the death of those below decks.

Again, this is only speculation, as no one knows what happened, and may never get figured out. Like everyone else who has been on the Truth Aquatic boats, I don't understand how it could have happened and am scratching my head trying to understand. My most heart-felt condolences to the victims and the families of this tragedy.
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Last edited by Diablo Loco; 09-08-2019 at 09:29 PM.
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Old 09-08-2019, 09:20 PM   #59
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Re: Fire on the Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by PigStikr View Post
what is this funny white thing on the berth ceiling of the sister ship vision????
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attracti...7&ff=213529713
Not wired into the bridge communications, according to reports a domestic smoke alarm and all that was required for the vessel under an allowance for it being a smaller vessel and consequently also not required to have a fire suppression system, outside of the engineering spaces.
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Old 09-09-2019, 05:50 AM   #60
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Re: Fire on the Conception

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Originally Posted by popgun pete View Post
Not wired into the bridge communications, according to reports a domestic smoke alarm and all that was required for the vessel under an allowance for it being a smaller vessel and consequently also not required to have a fire suppression system, outside of the engineering spaces.
So the people who really need to go to jail are the bureaucrats whose job it was and is to update regulations to match advances in technology. It only took one walk thru the sister ship for the NTSB investigator to decry the difficulty of finding the exit hatch in the dark and complain about its size. Where were they a year ago? Ten? For decades the NTSB sat on their butts instead of going out in the real world to find and implement real world solutions. You won't find a bucket load of LiIon batteries charging on an aircraft - you would think the morons would have extended the ban to boats. So who is investigating the NTSB????
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