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Old 03-21-2018, 08:06 AM   #31
kodama
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

I marked up a picture to illustrate Spearq8 explanation.

Hope this helps.

I will try to replace the pin axle of the back roller with a slightly longer one and keep you all updated on the results later.


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Old 03-21-2018, 11:38 PM   #32
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

@Kodoma ... what you are describing should not happen. Can you check the width of your back roller? It is possible that it is not wide enough. Also put the back roller in and then push the pin in making sure it is center. You can verify that by flipping the trigger to one side and seeing (or feeling) how much the pin is extending out of the box. Both sides should be equal. It is possible the pin is not centered and is too long on one side and is catching on the sides of the thermoplastic handle. The plan was to use a one piece back roller with integrated pin, but there was no easy way of putting that one piece roller into the box.
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Old 03-28-2018, 06:23 AM   #33
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by kodama View Post
I had about 30 something shots with the trigger yesterday. Shots where flawless. I encountered a small issue where the back roller skewed but this can be remedied with a slightly longer axle pin for that particular roller. It can happen when you hold the mech upside down without a shaft in place. Anyone else having this issue?

@Spearq8. I would rather see you filming a pool test then making a 3d animation. The mechanism is simple enough for anyone to understand and we can learn much more from a pool test with a side view. I have no uw camera to my disposal or I would do it myself.


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Hey kodama

My dr mech arrived today and like yours, the back roller pin seems too short. With no shaft in the mech, either side is free to come out of the slot and the back roller will jam up askew inside. The pin appears to be centrally positioned in the roller but just not long enough. When it comes out and jams, it needs to be fiddled back into place with a pick or small screwdriver and as yet, havenít been able to do it without removing the mech.
I also have a lot of trouble getting the shaft sear to engage the shaft notch. It takes quite a lot of force and playing with the trigger at the same time.
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Old 03-28-2018, 05:47 PM   #34
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
@Kodoma ... what you are describing should not happen. Can you check the width of your back roller? It is possible that it is not wide enough. Also put the back roller in and then push the pin in making sure it is center. You can verify that by flipping the trigger to one side and seeing (or feeling) how much the pin is extending out of the box. Both sides should be equal. It is possible the pin is not centered and is too long on one side and is catching on the sides of the thermoplastic handle. The plan was to use a one piece back roller with integrated pin, but there was no easy way of putting that one piece roller into the box.


Obviously I tried everything you mentioned before putting up my post. A slightly longer pin would do the trick. It would not interfere with the housing because at that location you have the small cutouts that used to accommodate the old pin release. Need to find a source for the pin and then it should be a five minute fix.


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Old 03-28-2018, 05:49 PM   #35
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

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Hey kodama



My dr mech arrived today and like yours, the back roller pin seems too short. With no shaft in the mech, either side is free to come out of the slot and the back roller will jam up askew inside. The pin appears to be centrally positioned in the roller but just not long enough. When it comes out and jams, it needs to be fiddled back into place with a pick or small screwdriver and as yet, havenít been able to do it without removing the mech.

I also have a lot of trouble getting the shaft sear to engage the shaft notch. It takes quite a lot of force and playing with the trigger at the same time.


I donít have any problems with the shaft engaging. I will keep you all posted when I have fixed the issue.


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Old 03-28-2018, 11:49 PM   #36
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

I have a feeling this was released before it was fully tested out. It seems that the back roller is not wide enough and since the Pathos top is 14mm on top (10mm on bottom) the roller is able to move out of its position and get skewed and stuck. I think a little wider roller might fix the problem. Try removing the back roller and then adding 2 stainless steel washers (about .2 or .3mm each side). If you can't find such thin washers try using a .5mm washer, but then you have to center the pin to compensate one side. The idea is to prevent the roller from skewing.

Another possibility is to use a bigger pin inside the roller. The idea is to prevent the roller from going up too high where the much wider box allows the roller to flip. This should have been tested and checked thoroughly before hand. Maybe with the Pathos trigger where the internal dimensions grows from 7mm to 14mm ... a back roller is not feasible. In this case the shaft sear needs to be changed to conventional back shaft sear notch while the front can stay with the floating roller. I do remember trying out a back roller on a beta Pathos trigger before and not having any problems about 3 years ago ... so I think it just needs some small adjustments. Will try to talk to Mario about this to find a solution. Worst case scenario is that he just sends everyone who bought these a new shaft sear with single front roller.
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Old 03-29-2018, 02:35 AM   #37
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
I have a feeling this was released before it was fully tested out. It seems that the back roller is not wide enough and since the Pathos top is 14mm on top (10mm on bottom) the roller is able to move out of its position and get skewed and stuck. I think a little wider roller might fix the problem. Try removing the back roller and then adding 2 stainless steel washers (about .2 or .3mm each side). If you can't find such thin washers try using a .5mm washer, but then you have to center the pin to compensate one side. The idea is to prevent the roller from skewing.



Another possibility is to use a bigger pin inside the roller. The idea is to prevent the roller from going up too high where the much wider box allows the roller to flip. This should have been tested and checked thoroughly before hand. Maybe with the Pathos trigger where the internal dimensions grows from 7mm to 14mm ... a back roller is not feasible. In this case the shaft sear needs to be changed to conventional back shaft sear notch while the front can stay with the floating roller. I do remember trying out a back roller on a beta Pathos trigger before and not having any problems about 3 years ago ... so I think it just needs some small adjustments. Will try to talk to Mario about this to find a solution. Worst case scenario is that he just sends everyone who bought these a new shaft sear with single front roller.

Spearq8 thanks for your input.
Like I said before it would be an easy fix to just use a slightly longer pin. There is no need at all to remove the back roller!
It would make a completely different trigger which I certainly donít want since it can work just fine with a minor adjustment.
I understand why you propose a slightly wider roller but I donít think that would solve the problem if we also not use a longer pin.
A wider roller is not critical the longer pin is.

Will email Mario later today to ask for a solution. Which in my case is an easy fix. Longer pin.


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Old 03-29-2018, 02:44 PM   #38
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

Actually I just received a bunch of these triggers today. Unfortunately I don't think they are ready yet and they need some kinks to be worked out. The front roller is not rolling ... on previous beta versions I have it was rolling, so it seems that there was a small change that is not good in the cradle. Most likely you need to increase the diameter of the cradle (which holds the front roller) otherwise your roller will not rotate and will just work like a friction round trigger (which will scratch).

As for the back roller ... it is just not wide enough. I think it needs to be around 6.7mm or 6.8mm. I talked to Mario and I think we agreed that it should change to 6.8mm. At the moment it is 6.3mm and in some cases might jam. The problem with the Pathos is that on top the box increases in size by 4mm ... so that makes things more critical as the roller depends on the box walls to stay center. Maybe using an 8mm instead of a 7mm roller might be a better idea ... but that would also need to change the entire shaft sear as well as the roller. Adding a longer pin will not work as the pin is already at 10mm and if it is more than that it will hit the thermoplastic housing. I managed to easily get the front roller fixed, but the back roller ... I guess will wait for the 6.8 rollers. 2 x .25mm washers or a single .5mm washer might also work. Need to give it a try.
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Old 03-29-2018, 03:08 PM   #39
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

Last night i took my trigger apart to switch the line release to the left side and got the chance see how things work. The front roller seemed to roll just fine in the cradle but that was just me spinning it by hand and I am not sure the best way to check it while under tension as i wouldn't be able to do that with the trigger in the gun. How did you come to the conclusion that the front roller was not rolling? Are you just looking for scratching or damage to the roller after a bunch of shots.

The back roller in my trigger can occasionally tilt if i turn it upside down and shake it without a shaft in it, but it has never become jamed sideways in the box yet.
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Old 03-30-2018, 12:56 AM   #40
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

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Originally Posted by SEA_ARCHER View Post
Last night i took my trigger apart to switch the line release to the left side and got the chance see how things work. The front roller seemed to roll just fine in the cradle but that was just me spinning it by hand and I am not sure the best way to check it while under tension as i wouldn't be able to do that with the trigger in the gun. How did you come to the conclusion that the front roller was not rolling? Are you just looking for scratching or damage to the roller after a bunch of shots.

The back roller in my trigger can occasionally tilt if i turn it upside down and shake it without a shaft in it, but it has never become jamed sideways in the box yet.
I talked to Mario and he said he changed the cradle dimensions by about .05mm ... so I might have this one. The front roller can be fixed quite easily by just going back to the previous beta version of the cradle ... or of course in my case I just ran a drill bit with sandpaper and now it works well. To know if it is rotating properly, put the roller in the cradle from the side, then pinch the roller and let the shaft sear hang. It should move absolutely freely when you swing it slightly.

As for the back roller ... this is a more serious problem and I think the roller dimensions need to change. Again the problem is due to the Pathos going from 7mm internally to 10mm on top. So if the back roller goes too high it can tilt with the additional 3mm void and jam. It has to be prevented from going too high. This can be done by using a slightly wider roller (say 6.8mm) but then this is cutting it really close and some Pathos handles have poor tolerances and could cause the box to close in and kill the .2mm tolerance. To do that then for sure the front reinforcing insert needs to be installed. But the insert that came with my trigger was 6.75mm and not 7mm ... so that is not going to help. Of course you can also use a thicker pin inside the roller ... this would reduce the roller up movement and prevent the roller from reaching the void on top. Also can use an 8mm instead of a 7mm roller ... but that would need a completely new shaft sear to accommodate the 8mm roller. Many things to try out and most probably a solution can be found for all these issues ... but certainly I feel this should have been done before selling these.
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Old 03-30-2018, 06:51 AM   #41
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

Spearq8, you are right...these mech's should have been tested before being released. I tested mine in the pool today and was astounded at the level of downgrade from the standard pathos mech!
Apart from the jamming back roller and difficulty in getting the shaft to engage in the mech, by far the biggest disappointment was its performance. When pulling the trigger, its a heavy pull to get the trigger to move but then it stops before release requiring a secondary, even greater pull to get it to shoot...completely destroying the shot.
Testing in my main gun (125, 7mm devoto shaft, 2 x 14mm @ 360% primeline bands) , which I shoot a lot @ 5m with groupings within 25mm radius, after 20 shots I struggled to get a shot within 125mm.
Its impossible to shoot with this mech and I'm sure that, as spearq8 has detailed, the front roller isn't actually rolling and with the difficulty engaging the shaft, I'm not sure back one is either!
I'll try the fixes you suggest.
Anyone else had issues shooting this mech?
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Old 03-30-2018, 01:35 PM   #42
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

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Originally Posted by NPG-70 View Post
Spearq8, you are right...these mech's should have been tested before being released. I tested mine in the pool today and was astounded at the level of downgrade from the standard pathos mech!

Apart from the jamming back roller and difficulty in getting the shaft to engage in the mech, by far the biggest disappointment was its performance. When pulling the trigger, its a heavy pull to get the trigger to move but then it stops before release requiring a secondary, even greater pull to get it to shoot...completely destroying the shot.

Testing in my main gun (125, 7mm devoto shaft, 2 x 14mm @ 360% primeline bands) , which I shoot a lot @ 5m with groupings within 25mm radius, after 20 shots I struggled to get a shot within 125mm.

Its impossible to shoot with this mech and I'm sure that, as spearq8 has detailed, the front roller isn't actually rolling and with the difficulty engaging the shaft, I'm not sure back one is either!

I'll try the fixes you suggest.

Anyone else had issues shooting this mech?


Hmm interesting! I had not experienced that problem at all. I checked my mechanism today and the front roller works just fine. In the pool the mechanism performed well except for the back roller to skew when held upside down.
See picture below

I have ordered stainless 2.5mm pins to replace the original. I am sure it will work since there is plenty of space to install a longer pin. Contrary to what spearq8 said.
You can clearly see the space where the old pin release was.
I do believe that Spearq8 has a good point that the back roller could be increased but the solution I propose is simpler and faster for my situation.
When I have the pictures of the new installation I will follow up on this.


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Old 03-30-2018, 06:25 PM   #43
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

I sanded the front roller cradle and made sure it rotated freely, as Spearq8 suggested and that marginally improved the loading issue.
In the water, the trigger pull is the same... a few mm of movement until greater resistance and then you have to increase pressure until eventually it releases. I estimate about 4 or 5 times normal amount of effort on trigger to get it to release. Worst thing is that it doesn't feel consistent...impossible to shoot when you've no idea when its gonna pop!
Not sure where to go from here. I don't wanna give up on the hope of super smooth double roller action so maybe i'll try and exchange it for another in the hope it was a just a bad one.
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Old 03-31-2018, 04:15 AM   #44
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

Quote:
You can clearly see the space where the old pin release was.

Actually that is a very good point. The old pin line release slots do match up with the approximate location of the back roller slot. So for sure adding a 14mm pin would be a solution to avoid the tilting of the back roller. The slot on the Pathos handle is slanted so you need to make sure that if the pin touches the frame, just to shave or file off that area. Obviously this is not a solution you want on a brand new trigger, as you don't really want to have pins sticking out of the box, but it will at least get the back roller from twisting for now.

I made a 6.8 roller and tried it ... helps a little but unfortunately it also can twist and wedge. A 6.8 roller with a 14mm pin would certainly work Long term, most likely the frame of the box needs to have the oval cut for the roller trigger about .7mm lower. to keep the CG of the pin below the 3 mm wider part on top. For existing boxes you could do the same thing by using a thicker

I found another problem with the front roller also. The edges have chamfers that make the actual roller contact area with the trigger sear much less. This was a big no no with our DR testing. So most likely this has to also change to a wider and flat edged roller.

Just feels that this is a trigger in the alpha stage. The idea of the floating roller is a completely new and revolutionary idea. But it still needs to be tested to make sure it works well under high loads and multiple loading cycles. There is always the possibility that it might actually not work or at least needs a lot of tweaking to get it to work.
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Old 03-31-2018, 04:34 AM   #45
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

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Actually that is a very good point.

I found another problem with the front roller also. The edges have chamfers that make the actual roller contact area with the trigger sear much less. This was a big no no with our DR testing. So most likely this has to also change to a wider and flat edged roller.

Just feels that this is a trigger in the alpha stage. The idea of the floating roller is a completely new and revolutionary idea. But it still needs to be tested to make sure it works well under high loads and multiple loading cycles. There is always the possibility that it might actually not work or at least needs a lot of tweaking to get it to work.
I guess we all need to receive some replacement parts from Mario as soon as we figured out the best solution to make this new concept work properly.

I still do believe that this trigger is very well made and that the concept and it's result, crisp and predictable release, is a huge improvement. But like you said it was probably released to the public a bit too soon. We'll work it out somehow.
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