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Old 10-14-2017, 02:42 PM   #151
z1taz
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

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Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
@Jon ... I don't get it with you guys. Why won't you just say the ****ing truth. THERE IS SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG WITH THE DESIGN OF A TYPICAL ROLLER GUN!!! It doesn't matter who makes the gun! Trying to act like the problem doesn't exist is doing a disservice to all spearos, and it is also a disservice to the builder of the guns. How the **** is someone going to know that his gun that he is building and selling has a design flaw if all you guys pussyfoot around the truth and act like it is all good??? The Alemmani and the Seal roller ... and any other gun built with a similar design .... they all shoot low and the shaft dives when you add power. I said this a million times and I put videos of it. The test with the Alemmani double roller 130 that Andrea brought in was NOT the only Alemmani test I did and you KNOW that because I shared that information with you. Anyway ... here is a test by the same guy that did testing for your Ulusub guns. I don't know if you saw this test but I do remember Peter getting flamed incessantly that he did "not know how to load the bands" and "did not know how to correctly setup the gun" ... when all he was doing was providing data on how the gun shot. I am sure the gun builder was happy that he no longer posts and shares his tests, but a lot of spearos appreciated his honest efforts. Here is a video he did of a double roller gun ... it is very obvious that the shaft is diving and that problem needs to be addressed!




@zz ... I know you resent the fact that I have an engineering degree. The gun you are shooting seems to be shooting well, but it would be interesting to see how the gun shoots at different distances to try and see if the "roller dive" has been avoided.
Madj , i was sure you were such an idiot kind of ingeniere as you talk and act as such . (what ever degrees you have ! )

( when people talks about theory VS some others who knows the realty !)

any how if your shaft on yr gun is diving ( as yr small dick seems to do same?) it is not my fault , you d better to improve yr ignorance with some more spearfishing out side from yr nice pool ! ( and may be to try to F$@K a new donkey or a new goat for yr small dick to grow up more)

Now about what you think are informations from you , are just F!^#$%ing LOOOOOOL s !

https://vimeo.com/109061941

old , 3 years ago video with single roller 120 carbon gun ( was my first ever shot on a fish with this gun (i did build this gun just to understand how rollers were ( the practical side ..not the theory that pop up lot later from muppets like you )
where is any dive from the shaft?

and please do not argue more because you would not believe how many different rollers i did to understand those kind of guns ( i did some 120/130/135 and even a 140 with G ) i did not publish at this time my fishes shot for some few at around 10 meters away just because i did not want my clients to ask me to make and sell them those kinds of guns , prefering to sell them " conventionnal spearguns" and i am sure i still have the videos not published some where in one my HDD or SSD .



PS : if you think i am a tourist spearfishing guide , yes i was , but do not think in yr small brain i was only this all my past life ...and in case i could still show you what were in the 90's the ( at this time) 3 m $ inventory from my race and collection cars ( by example lool )...

and if i stopped being a spearfishing tourist guide was because i was bored from you kind of tourists that were and still are not able to spear correctly and land nice fishes in my place .

it is too boring for me people who believe they are good enough and believe they could land a fish such a dtt because they have big guns and floats !

Last edited by z1taz; 10-14-2017 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 10-14-2017, 06:31 PM   #152
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

Dear friend Majd,your aprooval of that perticular test-https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=27&v=Bt9uJz8ALAo,means two things:
1)You have no idea about shaft-band setups
or
2)You know verry good that this setup is wrong but you like the confrontation and bad attitude
Im sure you know verry good that its riduculous wrong to put 9.5 shaft on two 16 mm rubbers.The gun from the test is one of my first big rollers from more than 6 years ago-a normal double full roller for 8 or 8.5 shafts.This gun was shooting perfect up to 9 meters with 8 mm shaft and I have prooven that with multiplie test shots.That test you published is ridiculous and setup is totaly wrong.Im even surprised that the gun was shooting still not so bad.Did you advise that guy how to rigg it??Becouse from some time I see you are the advisor here.
The whole thing started not becouse you got a bad gun from me,but becouse I harmed the selfconfidence of mr. Great.And the truth is that the trigger of my gun was not finished properly becouse for some reason you pushed me with the time to get the gun exactly before some date.This of cource doesnt excuse me and my mistake is that i'm too polite with people like you.Im trying to forget the fact that you lied to me directly and its in your messages
That perticular trigger is tested with 500 kilos of load and more than 6 years of use without problems.The only thing I changed was making a thicker release to hold better heavy breakaways.Instead of 6 mm cheaper parts like most triggers,I cut by laser 10 mm steel plate to make the sear more solid and prevent deformations.And also this model is the longest simple two part reverse with so low possible offset that you have seen,but of cource it doesnt matter.I give lifetime garantie to all of these mechs.
Obviously you Majd are the type that likes confrontation and doing tricky things by purpose.The role of unsatisfied customer doesnt suit you anymore,becouse people are tired of your statements.When normal customer has a problem,the problem is discussed and he gets refunded.I would never refuse that.Otherwise the real problem is different.
Shooting with 10 guns in your father's pool doesnt mean a big contribution to the ideas of spearfishing.Most of your statements are valid only for static tests,becouse in real conditions you shoot with different positions of the body and elbow,chasing mooving targets.Then most of your statements fail.An accurate gun for me is the one that has SAME REPEATABLE SHOOTING with max power in all different conditions,no matter shooting 2 inches high or low,I can adapt to this.The deviation is most often a personal matter of aiming.90% of the people who use polispast rollers claim to shoot higher than normal,wich is oposite to other statements here.Im sure many people understand what I mean.
So my advise to the young spearos is-dont listen to people like me and Majd.Spend an hour on a target,but shoot from different angles and positions.Keep the base setup rules for classic or rollerguns.Even if it takes more time,you will find the best for you!
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Old 10-14-2017, 06:35 PM   #153
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

We could wait years for Billy to spill his secrets.. so I guess we'll have to continue begrudgingly without.

Majd, I don't know what a typical Rollergun is, but when it comes to Speargun Performance you and I are always discussing non typical distances.. This thread is specifically about Inverted Poliplasts. Do you think Inverted Poliplasts have a fundamental design flaw? It does not look that way in a lot of the testing I'm seeing both in the Pool and in the Field. So much of it is finding the balance and elimintaing the little disturbances like shooting line snags. But clearly the Power and Range are there. If someone can hit a small target at 8,9,10 mtrs with good punch using the power system, then it's just a matter of little tweaks to dial this in to good groupings.
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Old 10-14-2017, 08:57 PM   #154
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

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Originally Posted by seal77 View Post
Dear friend Majd,your aprooval of that perticular test-https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=27&v=Bt9uJz8ALAo,means two things:
1)You have no idea about shaft-band setups
or
2)You know verry good that this setup is wrong but you like the confrontation and bad attitude
Im sure you know verry good that its riduculous wrong to put 9.5 shaft on two 16 mm rubbers.The gun from the test is one of my first big rollers from more than 6 years ago-a normal double full roller for 8 or 8.5 shafts.This gun was shooting perfect up to 9 meters with 8 mm shaft and I have prooven that with multiplie test shots.That test you published is ridiculous and setup is totaly wrong.Im even surprised that the gun was shooting still not so bad.Did you advise that guy how to rigg it??Becouse from some time I see you are the advisor here.
The whole thing started not becouse you got a bad gun from me,but becouse I harmed the selfconfidence of mr. Great.And the truth is that the trigger of my gun was not finished properly becouse for some reason you pushed me with the time to get the gun exactly before some date.This of cource doesnt excuse me and my mistake is that i'm too polite with people like you.Im trying to forget the fact that you lied to me directly and its in your messages
That perticular trigger is tested with 500 kilos of load and more than 6 years of use without problems.The only thing I changed was making a thicker release to hold better heavy breakaways.Instead of 6 mm cheaper parts like most triggers,I cut by laser 10 mm steel plate to make the sear more solid and prevent deformations.And also this model is the longest simple two part reverse with so low possible offset that you have seen,but of cource it doesnt matter.I give lifetime garantie to all of these mechs.
Obviously you Majd are the type that likes confrontation and doing tricky things by purpose.The role of unsatisfied customer doesnt suit you anymore,becouse people are tired of your statements.When normal customer has a problem,the problem is discussed and he gets refunded.I would never refuse that.Otherwise the real problem is different.
Shooting with 10 guns in your father's pool doesnt mean a big contribution to the ideas of spearfishing.Most of your statements are valid only for static tests,becouse in real conditions you shoot with different positions of the body and elbow,chasing mooving targets.Then most of your statements fail.An accurate gun for me is the one that has SAME REPEATABLE SHOOTING with max power in all different conditions,no matter shooting 2 inches high or low,I can adapt to this.The deviation is most often a personal matter of aiming.90% of the people who use polispast rollers claim to shoot higher than normal,wich is oposite to other statements here.Im sure many people understand what I mean.
So my advise to the young spearos is-dont listen to people like Majd. Spend an hour on a target,but shoot from different angles and positions.Keep the base setup rules for classic or rollerguns.Even if it takes more time,you will find the best for you!

ha ha ha well said in a nice and polied way , me i would just say to Majd F#@K you Ass-hole idiot and for his fans --same--
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Old 10-16-2017, 02:07 AM   #155
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

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Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
THERE IS SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG WITH THE DESIGN OF A TYPICAL ROLLER GUN!!!
In principle, three things come to mind. All have to do with the mass of the rubbers and what their inertia is doing with respect to the barrel / spear.

1. Centrifugal force is trying to send the rubbers upwards in the last third or so of the barrel (I've got a couple of good photos of this happening) and taking the rear of the shaft with them.
2. Part of the rest mass (the rubbers) is being redistributed from top to bottom of the barrel as the rubbers contract. So the barrel is going to want to rise correspondingly as this happens, which will lift the rear of the shaft. This should be inversely related to #1 though. The more you have of one effect, the less you'll have of the other.
3. While the rubbers are contracting, a not insignificant fraction of the rest mass is being rotated around the rollers. So the rest of the gun will want to rotate in the opposite direction i.e. handle down, muzzle up. Bit like a front wheel drive car losing traction under acceleration as the suspension unloads in the opposite direction from the wheels.

All three should be minimized by an invert design that has comparatively low mass dyneema going around the roller though.
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Old 10-16-2017, 07:57 AM   #156
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

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We could wait years for Billy to spill his secrets.. so I guess we'll have to continue begrudgingly without.
I got nothing to prove to you Behslayer...John ...Ulusub

Being a gun builder doesn't make you better than spearos who buy spearguns... especially when you aren't willing to take constructive criticism. I wish you all the best with your business mate but you are going down the wrong path in my opinion. I know I know... you don't care about my opinion but there are many builders who have done well in the past who no longer sell guns, or cannot raise a family on the money they solely bring in from building spearguns. There's a reason the best gun builders all over the world spend more time in their workshops than on online forums... just give that a thought mate

On a side note, I do have my eye on a second hand midhandle 150 you built. If I pick it up, I'll put it through its paces
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Old 10-16-2017, 09:20 AM   #157
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

Billy, more pooo drops.. We're talking about Inverted Poliplasts. Cutting Edge Speargun Design and Performance. Not your feelings... Look at Mr. Mullins response for an example.

Mr. Mullins, I do agree. Especially on low mass guns. This has been mitigated by many good builders by using Inverted set ups where a thinner, set stretch band is used on Top and connected to a Thicker or Multiple Bands on the bottom. But, as you pointed out Inverted Poliplast Rollers get around this issue.
If you do have some photos of Band Ramp on continuous band roller, that would be interesting to share.
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Old 10-16-2017, 10:06 AM   #158
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

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Billy, more pooo drops.. We're talking about Inverted Poliplasts. Cutting Edge Speargun Design and Performance. Not your feelings...
Mate I hope this fella entertains my trade offer for the ulusub. I'll finally be able to see if your craft can back up your shit talking here.
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Old 10-16-2017, 10:48 AM   #159
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

@Seal ... Peter tested a gun that was given to him to try out ... initially I believed you and thought that the problem was that the setup was not correct or that somehow he didn't know how to correctly shoot it. That is why I still bought a gun from you ... but my results were similar ... it is possible that we both don't know how to shoot or setup the gun, but I doubt it. As for me rushing you to send out a gun ... I never pushed you into anything and I specifically asked you to make sure it was optimally setup so I wouldn't have to do that work myself. You never once mentioned that you needed time to clean things up. As for the trigger ... please let's not go there. My advice with that is a good gun starts with good, solid, high quality components. I do think there is a place for roller guns ... but for that to happen people need to be objective about results and testing ... making excuses for poor shaft flight or bad performance is not the way to go. Your gun shot accurate and I made sure everybody saw that, but the power was not there and the shaft was diving. You mentioned that you had a way to make a shaft fly flat in 2 minutes ... it has been more than a few months ... I am sure I am not the only one still waiting to see that!


@Jon ... "when it comes to Speargun Performance you and I are always discussing non typical distances" Ummm ... what ???? The furthest distance I have ever posted is 8 meters. That is the limit of 2 wraps on a 130 gun. Sure I have tested longer distances privately ... but I never posted or shared any of those results as I think after 2 wraps there are other issues that make this type of setup not very practical. I get sent videos almost daily of people shooting fish at extended ranges ... so effective speargun distances have certainly changed. On the same thread here you have claims of 10 meter shooting ... and you are promoting that BS. Is that a typical distance?

As for rollers ... if 50% of the people are using rollers, then good for them. If they are getting good results then they shouldn't change. Maybe they have roller guns that shoot straight or maybe their older classic guns were not designed properly. If roller guns performed well for me ... maybe I would also be using roller guns. I did spend quite a bit of money trying many different roller guns. But nothing has even come close to the performance I am getting with a very simple classic setup. A classic gun is easier and faster to load, less moving parts with less things to go wrong. For me to switch to a roller gun ... I have to see some pretty convincing improvement in accuracy and performance. I do think that very very few people have actually seen how well a good classic 3 banded setup can perform. If they did, they might change their minds. If I sound anti roller ... it certainly is not the case. I am all for any improvement in speargun performance or accuracy. It is just that I am objective and do not think that the roller guns I have tried are performing well. The truth needs to be told ... that is the only way how performance will improve. In the short term maybe a few gun builders will lose a few sales, but if they work out the problems they will certainly be much better off long term.
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Old 10-16-2017, 11:09 AM   #160
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

@zz ... @zz .... now now now... another childish tantrum? Someone else posted some medication that might help you ... good advice ... try some. You posted video of a gun shooting 10 meters, I am sure you thought it was 10 meters but the plate was set at about 4 or 5 meters. You then posted a picture of a gun with 3 or 4 wraps of line ... ok ... but then I tried to point out to you that putting 10 meters of shooting line is not the same as 10 meters of effective shooting range. That seems to have caused your latest tantrum and since you have no real response, you resort back to childish insults and name calling. I think we have a communication problem and I guess I have to dumb myself down to your level. Not easy to do but here is my best try ... I used the search button under your name and have plagiarized some of your posts ... I hope you don't mind. Maybe this way we can understand each other better. Here is what I think ....

YOU learn how to load a speargun even with strong hard rubbers ~your problem is to be accurate as in your pool and to kill shot = sudden death the dogtooth you shot as a " what you are ".... you know certainly now what i am talking about ? mr "ingeniere" !why dont you shut up ? you real idiot, an ignorant arrogant idiot ! am i writing this in an enough good english so you are able to undestand ?A REAL STUPID IDIOT you are ! AND ? guess if i care ? i wrote he is an idiot , ( sorry , a REAL IDIOT is what i wrote ) and i do not think this is an insult , this is just a fact and my point of view why dont you start to learn and improve yr poor spearing way before to bla bla bla ? so get drunk or high !Ridiculous ! my advise is for you to convert yr pool in a sea water pool and load some live fishes in there ! another advice is to become a good spearo before to " bla bla bla " some advices on how to and what are the mods needed on guns to accuratly shot .Ridiculous ! ha ha ha ! that a normal spearo would never have trouble to load normally , so some beginners as you would be able to load without being need of having pain and being breathless from the pure effort that had to be made to achieve such an hard mission ! in fact you remind me of people of your style in my country , Who makes wood spearguns and pretend to teach things they know nothing except to make videos in where cuts to the editing are visible to avoid that one can see their defects and losses of their fishes due to their lacks of knowledge ; but as the numerous normal not spearos watching this and do not understand as they are normal people ( not even spearos ) you believe in those shits and trust those idiots .no it is only me , and do not worry when or if i have to say something to some one who ever he is , i do it ! and to up to date your info about this " business " i am out from this myself since few years already so nobody will have to be facing me my rubbish talking .about to qualifie some as newbye and point the facts they are bla bla bla useless person that is not even able to load properly a speargun he shows in videos , is exactly what i said before , some believe in , what do i care if they believe , and where is an insult to point this fact? the insult is more on to show stupid things and trying to argue how to , what to when you do not even know how to yrself !!!yes it might be surprising for some , even if i am involved in any business , i will lick your ass because it is a business .please excuse me about , as i presume , i am not from the same generation , born few decades before the internet , youtube , boards and other social networks , and lets say before this time when we did not know about some thing we did ask to some who knew if was possible on contrary to now where some ( as you ) when they does NOT know , they imagine they knows and on top from that try to show to others what is the way to do it , try to be seen , watched and followed , and to become a new " some thing " or " some one " , and if you were then no trouble at all for me to shut my F### mouth ! but honestly it is not the case and what ever you are trying to argue , i my self laugh everytime i am watching your videos please try to not come back writing such things as those handles are not good , or weak or else because you ll be facing so many proofs from contrary you ll then just be hiding yrself in yr pool for long to not come with " mosquito spearguns " and not to dream to try to spear big huge world record sizes dogtooth or wahoos if they do not have a dedicate gear in hand .because i am a "dickhead " and i am not interested in explaining why for 2 other reasons :1) most people here are not spearing the way we do in my country and they does not need to at end spear with some gun the way i make them to be 2) i am not here to explain subjects on a brand i import in my country and prefer not interfer with the brand sells for another waow !you are so perceptive to have seen this BLA BLA BLA USELESS again you d better start to learn how to before to argue such Sorry , i I have no reason to want to impress you or to want to do it for anyone from this board , so 1) or you really have to learn on how to load properly a speargun i am thinking you might have a chest problem ? may be your body is too fat and your fat body full does not allow you to chest load a speargun ? in fact I think you have the addtion of these yes yes yes if you say so , this is surely the truth ( but IMO only for some i would qualify idiots thinking that this could be exact ) why dont you shut up ? you real idiot , an ignorant arrogant idiot ! am i writing this in an enough good english so you are able to undestand ?A REAL STUPID IDIOT you are !i am not licking ass holes ha ha ha !thank you , but is not the only , at least are some small fishes in my pool !are my "penetration" tests i wrote he is an idiot , ( sorry , a REAL IDIOT is what i wrote ) and i do not think this is an insult , this is just a fact and my point of view .( but is still unable to shot and land properly some fishes more than few Lbs ! ) ha ha ha !ha ha ha good to be in ignore list from such as you ha ha ha !En francais : ~je t'emmerde connard , et je te pisse au cul ~No matter how many spearguns you have , you are ridiculous .now i finished wasting time with such a person as you ! you write too much stupidity .stay quiet yrself mr big mouth full of shit !you understand nothing ! ha ha ha!in fact you are a funny jester .yes do not need to speak to me as i do not care from you what ever you would say , ...sorry you "trou du cul "any how if your shaft on yr gun is diving ( as yr small dick seems to do same?) it is not my fault , you d better to improve yr ignorance with some more spearfishing out side from yr nice pool ! ( and may be to try to F$@K a new donkey or a new goat for yr small dick to grow up more)Now about what you think are informations from you , are just F!^#$%ing LOOOOOOL s !F#@K you Ass-hole idiot and for his fans --same--
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Old 10-16-2017, 11:51 AM   #161
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

Speech and objectiveness are signs of intelligence and character. Name calling and personal insults a sign of shallow thinking. I love debate and discussion, I respect the opinions of opposing designs, I use both rollers and conventional guns, and appreciate the ingenuity and effort of builders and shooters that post constructive ideas and results. Regardless of the side your convictions lie, it's a shame to see adult craftsmen act like juveniles. I would hunt with any of you as I am sure you're all talented and skilled. Please don't destroy your credibility with nasty and targeted personal attacks. It cheapens the discussion and destroys your credibility. Jon, I love it when you stay on topic and you have built some beautiful guns and have shared some appreciated advice for me and my boys on Indo. Thanks bruddah! Majd, l have benefitted from all of the testing you've done on band and shaft configurations and objective observations. My father is an engineer. Life is a science to him. I am different. Life is an art to me. His scientific approach frustrates my artistic approach, but in the end we both enjoy life and benefit from the other's approach. z1taz, you dive and live in a region that holds deep significance to me...the South PAC...and that puts you on a short list of guys I would hunt with if ever in your waters. seal77, beautiful guns and hats off to you for crafting some beautiful guns and own trigger mechs. The only thing that matters is how you and your customers feel about your designs. There will always be critics, some with very valid points that you can use to improve your designs, and some with negative comments because they simply don't like them. No worries. If you love what you do, keep doing it.

Again, I love debate and see value in what you all have contributed to our sport...way of life for many. PLEASE don't destroy that with petty words and insults.

Just my "two cents" worth from me, no one special, just a simple minded Island boy.

PS: I have built my own gun, something I think every serious spearo should do at least once. It is by no means the best gun, but it is my favorite gun because I created it. I've converted several guns into rollers, and have a quiver of conventional guns. As long as I can put food on my table, enjoy my time in the water, and always improve on putting better fish on my kui than the last dive, I'm satisfied. I know there will always be that question of "what is the best gun or system"....maybe it hasn't even been designed yet...but in the mean time the best gun for anyone is the gun they have in their hands the moment they pull the trigger because it's the one that's puts food on the table today, not tomorrow. Mahalo Nui, Fa'a fei tai, thanks for all the technical and craft advice and ideas. Now share what's helpful, not what's destructive.
Aloha!

Makoa


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Old 10-16-2017, 11:55 AM   #162
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

Nic, over half of your posts on Spearboard have been attacking me in some way or another due to your thinking that I give Majd a hard time? I never met you in my life. You remain anonymous. So go figure if I thinks your a kook. Who knows.. maybe you're a good guy full of knowledge about Spearfishing and Spearguns. Maybe not. If I was new to a forum or an island, I wouldn't come in guns blazing taking shots at everyone without understanding any of the long histories between members. Anyways. don't matter. this thread is about Inverted Poliplast Rollers.. not feelings.

Majd. Yes, I would say 8mtrs is a non typical distance for your typical speargun. You and I are most interested in Bluewater distances. This thread is supposed to be about Inverted Poliplast Rollers. Something we both are interested in, and which have shown from Mulitple Sources to have both Range and Accuracy at Bluewater Distances. Please if you will be part of this thread let's keep it on that and please stop attacking Seal. That is where you got into trouble.. belittling Seal or Alemanni or.. etc. CRAFTSMEN who are really visionaries in Speargun Design and manufacturing is just stomach turning to many of us.

Makoa, the voice of reason. I'm moving to your area next week.

NEVIN, any videos to show with 8mtrs or 8mtrs+ Range and Accuracy from any of those Incredible Crafts?

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Old 10-16-2017, 12:34 PM   #163
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

waow Madj seems to be unhappy ! ha ha !

PS : Madj ..do you think i even tried to read yr stupidity bla bla ?

try to F$@K a new donkey or a new goat for yr small dick to grow up more and please send in video !

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Old 10-16-2017, 02:57 PM   #164
Mullins
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Wellington
Posts: 224
Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Behslayer View Post
If you do have some photos of Band Ramp on continuous band roller, that would be interesting to share.
Sorry mate I tried to post last time this was mentioned, I'll give it another go once I find the photos.

Last edited by Mullins; 10-17-2017 at 04:52 AM.
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Old 10-17-2017, 04:52 AM   #165
Mullins
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Wellington
Posts: 224
Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

Gives you some idea of the madness that ensues when some latex tries to turn a corner at speed. Of course this exaggerated since there's no shaft involved and it's out of the water, so travelling pretty fast. Underwater the effect would be muted by comparison. But it will still be there, and I'm not sure how much lift it takes to destabilize the rear of a shaft. Possibly not much at all?

http://www.spearboard.com/attachment...1&d=1508230223
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