Home Tournaments Calendar Weather Merchandise Sponsors

Go Back   Spearboard.com - The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Boating Social Media Forum > General Topics (Non-regional) > Technical Spearfishing

Technical Spearfishing Technical Scuba diving is generally defined as going deeper than 130 feet. You must have the proper training for this extreme aspect of spearfishing.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 01-04-2008, 03:17 PM   #16
SpearMax
Forum Administrator
 
SpearMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Florida USA
Posts: 16,466
Wink Re: Ringing in the 2008 New Year - deep + dark + vampire teeth!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjnjupiter View Post
Was the "drag a fish out of the wreck" on your planned profile? Tony, Please be careful!!!
I'll buy you a fish dinner anytime!

Nailbiter
Yes Randy..............I had that contingency built in (along with an ample pony of emergency gas for safety). If I decided the envelope was being pushed too far, I would have simply cut the spear line and lost the fish. I find technical spearfishing is all about decision paradigms while multi-tasking. During tech and trimix training with a good instructor, the "what if" scenario analysis is pretty important. This sort of spearfishing is definitely not everyone's cup of tea for sure. Some people's nails grow too slow.
__________________
"Spearing is the path to enlightenment." --- Lao Tzu

“Live this day as if it will be your last. Remember that you will only find 'tomorrow' on the calendars of fools.”

---- Success Unlimited Author Og Mandino b.1923 - d.1996
SpearMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2008, 05:06 PM   #17
sailcrazy
cracker
 
sailcrazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: north palm beach fl
Age: 32
Posts: 636
Re: Ringing in the 2008 New Year - deep + dark + vampire teeth!

tony, i was on sandys boat that day and the pictures dont do that fish justice
__________________
"ya gotta want it"
koah spearguns
sailcrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2008, 08:40 PM   #18
SpearMax
Forum Administrator
 
SpearMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Florida USA
Posts: 16,466
Smile Re: Ringing in the 2008 New Year - deep + dark + vampire teeth!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailcrazy View Post
tony, i was on sandys boat that day and the pictures dont do that fish justice
Ok ,then it was nice meeting you boat to boat.
__________________
"Spearing is the path to enlightenment." --- Lao Tzu

“Live this day as if it will be your last. Remember that you will only find 'tomorrow' on the calendars of fools.”

---- Success Unlimited Author Og Mandino b.1923 - d.1996
SpearMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2008, 09:59 PM   #19
Bulit7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,430
Re: Ringing in the 2008 New Year - deep + dark + vampire teeth!

Nice work Tony!
Bulit7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 07:29 AM   #20
jadairiii
Registered User
 
jadairiii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Posts: 1,904
Re: Ringing in the 2008 New Year - deep + dark + vampire teeth!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpearMax View Post
Yes Randy..............I had that contingency built in (along with an ample pony of emergency gas for safety). If I decided the envelope was being pushed too far, I would have simply cut the spear line and lost the fish. I find technical spearfishing is all about decision paradigms while multi-tasking. During tech and trimix training with a good instructor, the "what if" scenario analysis is pretty important. This sort of spearfishing is definitely not everyone's cup of tea for sure. Some people's nails grow too slow.
If I am reading your charts right (and I apologize if not) but it looks to me that you only had ≈500 psi in your back gas when you hit your 80% bottle! What was your contingency for losing your 80 bottle? What was the size of this “ample pony”?

John
jadairiii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 09:00 AM   #21
SpearMax
Forum Administrator
 
SpearMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Florida USA
Posts: 16,466
Smile Re: Ringing in the 2008 New Year - deep + dark + vampire teeth!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jadairiii View Post
If I am reading your charts right (and I apologize if not) but it looks to me that you only had ≈500 psi in your back gas when you hit your 80% bottle! What was your contingency for losing your 80 bottle? What was the size of this “ample pony”?

John
Good questions John!

I try my best to follow the "rule of thirds" from tech cave diving and apply it in my ocean diving. A third of the gas to get into the cave, a third to get out and a third left over for contingency. That is why I usually hit my deco bottle with over 1,000 psi of primary gas left in my tank (even though this is open water, not cave diving).

I use an H-Valve tech set up with two regs, but carry that concept even one step further for safety with a redundant completely separate "bail-out" 19 cube pony bottle rig that is back mounted for spearfishing ease. I like solo spearfishing and take this extra safety measure which actually did come into use one time.

My 80% oxygen deco bottle is also back mounted and not likely to be physically lost, but certainly could fail or lose its gas. In that case my contingency plan is to send up on my line a small see-me tube with a slate asking the boat to drop in the always present special 40 cube deco bottle I have attached to a special float with 30 feet of line on it.
__________________
"Spearing is the path to enlightenment." --- Lao Tzu

“Live this day as if it will be your last. Remember that you will only find 'tomorrow' on the calendars of fools.”

---- Success Unlimited Author Og Mandino b.1923 - d.1996
SpearMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 01:32 PM   #22
jadairiii
Registered User
 
jadairiii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Posts: 1,904
Re: Ringing in the 2008 New Year - deep + dark + vampire teeth!

Tony,

Here is the fallacy of your “contingency” plan, on more then one occasion (that you have admitted too) your boat has lost you (or visa versa). Therefore, you are diving without sufficient gas to complete the dive. Even on a flat calm day, there are 1000 failure points on a boat that could delay, or worse, its ability to “rescue” you, not to mention external variables that could keep the boat from getting to you in time. That cold front moves in a bit quicker then you anticipated and we are adding your name to the memorial list.

Without seeing this “triple tank” rig you speak of, I need to ask (or actually you do) can you reach ALL of the valves to turn them on or off? Can you reach all of the first stages to swap them out if the need arises? The H-Valve is nice unless a neck o-ring failure occurs. Two years ago I would consider this rare, but since then I have had 3 neck o-ring failures (2 of which were just under a year old, and they failed within a week of each other) and my buddy had his doubles fail + a stage (all were properly maintained and VIP’ed every year).

It’s good that you write about these dives, but you don’t seem to recognize the fact that you are leaving a whole lot to chance. These were just the glaring deficiencies and some idle thoughts. How many divers were lost this year conducting much less “technical” dives? Happy New Year.

John
jadairiii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 01:51 PM   #23
diverlen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Tequesta, FL
Posts: 1,191
Re: Ringing in the 2008 New Year - deep + dark + vampire teeth!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jadairiii View Post
Tony,

Here is the fallacy of your “contingency” plan, on more then one occasion (that you have admitted too) your boat has lost you (or visa versa). Therefore, you are diving without sufficient gas to complete the dive. Even on a flat calm day, there are 1000 failure points on a boat that could delay, or worse, its ability to “rescue” you, not to mention external variables that could keep the boat from getting to you in time. That cold front moves in a bit quicker then you anticipated and we are adding your name to the memorial list.

Without seeing this “triple tank” rig you speak of, I need to ask (or actually you do) can you reach ALL of the valves to turn them on or off? Can you reach all of the first stages to swap them out if the need arises? The H-Valve is nice unless a neck o-ring failure occurs. Two years ago I would consider this rare, but since then I have had 3 neck o-ring failures (2 of which were just under a year old, and they failed within a week of each other) and my buddy had his doubles fail + a stage (all were properly maintained and VIP’ed every year).

It’s good that you write about these dives, but you don’t seem to recognize the fact that you are leaving a whole lot to chance. These were just the glaring deficiencies and some idle thoughts. How many divers were lost this year conducting much less “technical” dives? Happy New Year.

John
John, based upon my 35 years of diving experience, I think I would have to move on to another LDS to get my tanks VIPd. Just an idea.
diverlen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 04:48 PM   #24
jadairiii
Registered User
 
jadairiii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Posts: 1,904
Re: Ringing in the 2008 New Year - deep + dark + vampire teeth!

Quote:
Originally Posted by diverlen View Post
John, based upon my 35 years of diving experience, I think I would have to move on to another LDS to get my tanks VIPd. Just an idea.
Different shops, and not all of my tanks failed. Go figure?

John
jadairiii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 10:48 PM   #25
SpearMax
Forum Administrator
 
SpearMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Florida USA
Posts: 16,466
Smile Re: Ringing in the 2008 New Year - deep + dark + vampire teeth!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jadairiii View Post
Two years ago I would consider this rare, but since then I have had 3 neck o-ring failures (2 of which were just under a year old, and they failed within a week of each other) and my buddy had his doubles fail + a stage (all were properly maintained and VIP’ed every year).
John, that is an incredible failure rate!

You must be doing something wrong as DiverLen says. Could it be over filling or bad maintenance or age of tanks or heat exposure or storage issues or valve degradation or lube incompatability or etc. etc. etc.?

That is simply hard to fathom such a high failure rate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jadairiii View Post
Tony,Here is the fallacy of your “contingency” plan, on more then one occasion (that you have admitted too) your boat has lost you (or visa versa). Therefore, you are diving without sufficient gas to complete the dive.
John, that is one heck of a presumption. We have boat separations in our area quite often. Did you see this one a few days ago?

http://www.spearboard.com/showthread...281#post626281

And this is one we heard about. Imagine the ones we don't hear about. Even the few times I had a boat separation I always had plenty of gas to complete the dive. That has never been an issue with me. The idea of getting oxygen from the boat is rarely an issue. I just was stating it is one contingency possibility.

John, I think a tech diver has to draw the line somewhere, otherwise one would be carrying so much extra gas, the extra weight would become dangerous. A contingency arrangement is just that. When something happens you use it. If you overlap contingency possibility with contingency possibility, to try and achieve a fail-safe state, you can over do it in my opinion. There is clearly a risk-benefit balance that should be considered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jadairiii View Post
Without seeing this “triple tank” rig you speak of, I need to ask (or actually you do) can you reach ALL of the valves to turn them on or off? Can you reach all of the first stages to swap them out if the need arises?
John, the answer is yes. I use in-line shut off valves from Silent diving systems on my two back mounted bottles. The numerous tech certifications I have took us through countless valve shut-down practices with the H-Valves. Even back mounts can be reached if need be.

Thanks for your questions and definitely figure out why those neck rings are failing man. That may be reason for "nailbiting."

Good luck! Tony
__________________
"Spearing is the path to enlightenment." --- Lao Tzu

“Live this day as if it will be your last. Remember that you will only find 'tomorrow' on the calendars of fools.”

---- Success Unlimited Author Og Mandino b.1923 - d.1996

Last edited by SpearMax; 01-05-2008 at 11:03 PM.
SpearMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2008, 07:00 AM   #26
jadairiii
Registered User
 
jadairiii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Posts: 1,904
Re: Ringing in the 2008 New Year - deep + dark + vampire teeth!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpearMax View Post
John, that is an incredible failure rate!

You must be doing something wrong as DiverLen says. Could it be over filling or bad maintenance or age of tanks or heat exposure or storage issues or valve degradation or lube incompatability or etc. etc. etc.?

That is simply hard to fathom such a high failure rate.



John, that is one heck of a presumption. We have boat separations in our area quite often. Did you see this one a few days ago?

http://www.spearboard.com/showthread...281#post626281

And this is one we heard about. Imagine the ones we don't hear about. Even the few times I had a boat separation I always had plenty of gas to complete the dive. That has never been an issue with me. The idea of getting oxygen from the boat is rarely an issue. I just was stating it is one contingency possibility.

John, I think a tech diver has to draw the line somewhere, otherwise one would be carrying so much extra gas, the extra weight would become dangerous. A contingency arrangement is just that. When something happens you use it. If you overlap contingency possibility with contingency possibility, to try and achieve a fail-safe state, you can over do it in my opinion. There is clearly a risk-benefit balance that should be considered.



John, the answer is yes. I use in-line shut off valves from Silent diving systems on my two back mounted bottles. The numerous tech certifications I have took us through countless valve shut-down practices with the H-Valves. Even back mounts can be reached if need be.

Thanks for your questions and definitely figure out why those neck rings are failing man. That may be reason for "nailbiting."

Good luck! Tony

Tony,

You miss my point on the o-rings, the point was, these things happen, and in batches. Last year there seemed to be a higher then normal failure rate on the diaphragm of apkes 1sts, 2 years ago there were the SP Mk20 first stage failures, beginning of this year my LDS had the local fire dept bring in a group of Zeagle 1st stages that the turret o-rings were failing, US Divers HP seats, Oceanic 2nd stages…..the list goes on.

You are all alone, 200 feet of water with a single tank and hope that the boat will find you with the gas you need in the event of a gas loss. Do you really think that 19 would give you any time at 200 with your breathing rate on that dive? I just get the feeling you have convinced yourself that “it cant happen to you”. As you say, Good luck.

John
jadairiii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2008, 08:31 AM   #27
Relapse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: On The Sea, With The Fishes
Posts: 539
Re: Ringing in the 2008 New Year - deep + dark + vampire teeth!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jadairiii View Post
Tony,

You miss my point on the o-rings, the point was, these things happen, and in batches. Last year there seemed to be a higher then normal failure rate on the diaphragm of apkes 1sts, 2 years ago there were the SP Mk20 first stage failures, beginning of this year my LDS had the local fire dept bring in a group of Zeagle 1st stages that the turret o-rings were failing, US Divers HP seats, Oceanic 2nd stages…..the list goes on.

You are all alone, 200 feet of water with a single tank and hope that the boat will find you with the gas you need in the event of a gas loss. Do you really think that 19 would give you any time at 200 with your breathing rate on that dive? I just get the feeling you have convinced yourself that “it cant happen to you”. As you say, Good luck.

John
John, there is only one person who can change a man's attitude...and that is the man with the attitude. Yours is not the first point Tony has "overlooked", or would that be ignored? Tony has developed, probably as an inner defense mechanism, to ignore anything anyone has to say that may show him in a negative light as owner blah blah ad nauseum. Hopefully we will never have to read his obit because of diving.

but I appreciate your post and what I learned from it.
__________________
Anybody seent my teefs and my jug?
Relapse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2008, 08:32 AM   #28
Relapse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: On The Sea, With The Fishes
Posts: 539
Re: Ringing in the 2008 New Year - deep + dark + vampire teeth!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Relapse View Post
John, there is only one person who can change a man's attitude...and that is the man with the attitude. Yours is not the first point Tony has "overlooked", or would that be ignored? Tony has developed, probably as an inner defense mechanism, to ignore anything anyone has to say that may show him in a negative light as owner blah blah ad nauseum. Hopefully we will never have to read his obit because of diving.

but I appreciate your post and what I learned from it.
Since my posts have poofing lately, "quote".
__________________
Anybody seent my teefs and my jug?
Relapse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2008, 09:27 AM   #29
diverlen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Tequesta, FL
Posts: 1,191
Re: Ringing in the 2008 New Year - deep + dark + vampire teeth!

I have just finished rereading all of the posts on this thread and my conclusion is that what started out as a "fun sharing spearing experience" has denigrated into some kind of "you don't know what you are doing" lecture.
For whatever reason, I don't fully understand but I think I have a hint. I just want to say thanks for sharing that particular dive with us. I always find your posts to be informative and entertaining, so keep them coming so that we may learn from them. I know from experience in all of my years of diving, that for the most part, when folks make blunders they are very reluctant to tell others, as opposed to how you tell it like it is. Regarding divers being separated from their dive boat, I can truthfully say that it frequently happens but is hardly ever reported publically on an open forum.
When folks speak negatively, something may being said which could cause one to look further into just why those commments are being made. That is, we are saying a lot about ourselves.
Randy, I could use one of those free fish dinners.
diverlen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2008, 09:23 PM   #30
jfjf
.
 
jfjf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Palm Bch County
Posts: 11,256
Re: Ringing in the 2008 New Year - deep + dark + vampire teeth!

I think Jadairiii makes good points and I see no reason to suspect that he has some hidden agenda. His question was simply, what you gonna do if you loose the entire 80% deco bottle at the start of the 30 ft stop?

Since Tony has in-line shut-off valves, it is somewhat unlikley that a typical problem would cause the loss of all his deco mix, but it is not impossible.

Tony had 400-500 psi in his 149 cu-ft tank at the 30 ft stop. An intelligent discussion should then include a calculation of how long the diver could deco using only the remaing air in the primary and also a small pony bottle. Only when both of those supplies are exhausted would the surface (boat) supplied oxygen become an issue. I'll let someone else do the math...
jfjf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:34 PM.


The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Social Media Forum Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2014 Spearboard.com