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Old 01-11-2017, 03:28 PM   #1
UaVaj
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euro shaft curve notch vs american shaft square notch

euro shaft curve notch vs american shaft square notch.

what are the advantage or disadvantage with either of these design?

Last edited by UaVaj; 01-11-2017 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 01-11-2017, 06:25 PM   #2
popgun pete
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Re: euro shaft curve notch vs american shaft square notch

The square cut shaft tail notch was required for a single-piece trigger to work and then other mechanisms evolved to make use of the same shaft in order to make that tail a "defacto" standard. The euro shaft has no sharp corners/edges inside the tail notch, so are less likely to break on a slim shaft. The square cut tails were generally used on 5/16" diameter tails that fitted the sear box mouth with the balance of the shaft being larger or of the same size. All my own guns use square cut tails as bar a couple of euroguns they all shoot 5/16" diameter or 3/8" shafts so snapping the tail off by first dropping the shaft on its tail is not going to happen because I take care not to do that.

The eurogun shaft tail was also an attempt to make a universal tail for shafts to be transferable between different makers' guns, but they also can have different diameters into the sear box, which has to have a strong roof as otherwise the shaft can pop out through the top. The flat on the top of the euro shaft tail is to stop it rolling and by keeping the tail pressed up hard against the sear box roof it can then keep the tail in the center of the sear box mouth which is often rectangular in shape. That allows the shooting line to be on a loop into the sear box, but also means that the tail can bust off at the wishbone notches when something big puts the shaft to the test.

Last edited by popgun pete; 01-11-2017 at 06:41 PM. Reason: extra comment
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Old 01-12-2017, 02:20 AM   #3
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Re: euro shaft curve notch vs american shaft square notch

[quote=popgun pete;2129369 That allows the shooting line to be on a loop into the sear box, but also means that the tail can bust off at the wishbone notches when something big puts the shaft to the test.[/QUOTE]

RIP notched shafts.
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Old 01-12-2017, 02:37 AM   #4
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Re: euro shaft curve notch vs american shaft square notch

also - euro shafts waste alot of band stretch
a riffe euro spear has the first shark fin - (from tail end) about 3.5" from the butt end of the spear
my red tide square notch spears have the first fin at between 1.5" to 1.75"
so you get more band stretch
also - you will be hard pressed to find a gun with a euro shaft with more than 2 bands- a few have 3 but none have more than that- it is considered a weaker design- since it depends on the spear being sandwiched between the sear and the top of the mech- but the square notch holds on without touching the mech top.
also a euro shaft usually rises up slightly when it is locked in and drops down onto the track when trigger is pulled- this works ok for open rail tracks but not so well for enclosed tracks
for enclosed tracks the red tide spears are easily the best because of the sharkfin design.
on standard spears - such as riffe - the shark fin is angled down and when the wishbone is loaded - it is wedged down onto the track as it slides down the track when fired- this cuts the wishbones and scuffes and potentially damages the top of the et as the "wedged "wishbone is dragged down the track .
On the red tide spears - the sharkfin is designed so that it has a groove that is raised up about 1/8" - so that the wishbone is pulling froward only and not down onto the track - damaging neither the track or the wishbone.
This is why I only use them and anyone with an enclosed track is insane not to.
I will post some pics illustrating my points in the morning-= it's very late at the moment.
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Old 01-12-2017, 04:25 AM   #5
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Re: euro shaft curve notch vs american shaft square notch

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Originally Posted by Impaler Spearguns View Post
also - euro shafts waste alot of band stretch
a riffe euro spear has the first shark fin - (from tail end) about 3.5" from the butt end of the spear
my red tide square notch spears have the first fin at between 1.5" to 1.75"
so you get more band stretch
also - you will be hard pressed to find a gun with a euro shaft with more than 2 bands- a few have 3 but none have more than that- it is considered a weaker design- since it depends on the spear being sandwiched between the sear and the top of the mech- but the square notch holds on without touching the mech top.
also a euro shaft usually rises up slightly when it is locked in and drops down onto the track when trigger is pulled- this works ok for open rail tracks but not so well for enclosed tracks
for enclosed tracks the red tide spears are easily the best because of the sharkfin design.
on standard spears - such as riffe - the shark fin is angled down and when the wishbone is loaded - it is wedged down onto the track as it slides down the track when fired- this cuts the wishbones and scuffes and potentially damages the top of the et as the "wedged "wishbone is dragged down the track .
On the red tide spears - the sharkfin is designed so that it has a groove that is raised up about 1/8" - so that the wishbone is pulling froward only and not down onto the track - damaging neither the track or the wishbone.
This is why I only use them and anyone with an enclosed track is insane not to.
I will post some pics illustrating my points in the morning-= it's very late at the moment.
I am not sure it is a fair generalization to say euros waste a lot of band stretch, but I could be wrong.
Pathos has the rearmost shark fin 1.8'' from the rear end of the shaft. Other brands are not as smart yet, but I am sure it is coming very soon. But many of them are reverse mechs, which the Riffe isn't either (besides the silly shark fin placement). I don't know if there a lot of US reverse mechs or if the are generally traditional, forward mechs.
If you are having spears custom made, in terms of where to place the shark fins, you can def place it very far back on many euro shafts, too.

Last edited by Diving Gecko; 01-12-2017 at 04:45 AM.
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Old 01-12-2017, 05:21 AM   #6
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Re: euro shaft curve notch vs american shaft square notch

Considering how much time Ive spent on euro style guns, I can say that many guns and spears DO waste a lot of band stretch in many instances, the same goes for american mech guns as well...in the end, the best spear you can find, is the one you can make as perfect as you want. One of the main reasons I work so hard on my guns is to actually fix band stretch issues. Some guns you have to work hard at it, some a lot less.

Truth of the matter is, 99.99% of guns have issues (unless of course you are buying one a Herranen speargun) Most people actually work around them and ignore them or dont even know they exist. Thats why i like spending 100 hours on a gun, before i even kill something with it...I'm weird tho so dont take me as an example. Most issues revolve around an improperly set up band and shaft combination others because I'm just a picky bitch.

You can look at nearly any gun out there and figure out how to not only move the mech entirely back and or convert it to a reverse mech, and use a spear with shark fins allllll the way back. Most guns have almost a full foot of space behind the shark fin....check out one of my favorite guns as well..the Rob Allen...killed more fish over the years then any of us will ever see...taken more records over the world and then some....



But when it comes to the full optimization of the gun, you'll see that EACH band is almost a foot behind the actual end of the gun, and one notch is going to be 3-4 inches further then that because its the first band furthest from the mech end of the spear...when you combine a 9 inch and a 13 iches per band of wasted space, all of a sudden you can see, just how much more they could be made BETTER...we all know the gun works just fine. But add a meandros reverse mech and a special spear (my fave is a Red Tide) and then all of a sudden, you have a gun that shoot unlike any you have ever felt before...this is simple mathematics and mechanical comprehension.





IMO Red Tide spears are the best for ET guns hands down. GR Tarr ha a raised shark fin that works absolutely perfect to keep the wishbone from making contact with the top of the gun. Most people dont even realize this is an issue till they see the fix and realize all along how simple a fix these Red Tide spears are. This drag on the top of your gun not only translates to a slower spear, but it translates itself to perceptible recoil. Throwing a shot off, kicking hard, causing you to lose confidence in your shots are just a few things that can happen with just an improperly setup spear. Not only are GR Tarrs ET spears some of the best around (IMO again) his euro spears are absolutely wonderful as well..the shark fins are super small and streamlined. The welds look like a god from the heavens put them together. Perfect is an understatement, there is none of these "half welded spears" like with some other brands, no sharp edges they look like someone perfectly blended the two metals together. They honestly look like one piece, the spear and shark fin. I know i keep saying the word PERFECT but i dont know how else to describe it. Once you hold one and look at it, you'll understand. Shoot one and you might tell all your friend about it...but dont take my word for it...

Not that riffe is the holy grail of spear manufacturing, but red tide spears look about 9 times better then Riffe spears by example, for ME they also work a lot better too. If i could find the pile of bent riffe spears laying in my yard you'd be shocked. I dont even own one bent red tide spear...

There are soo many variables when it comes to spears....a lot, when you start to understand just what makes the next spear "better" then the next, is being able to spot those small subtleties without being told what they are... I will continue to use red tide spears because of the complete customization and control i have. Both in euro and american mech configuration.

Spear q8 is probably making a 9 page write up on spear variances, and his favorite spear the spora one.

My favorite spear is the one that I can customize exactly as I want, when I want, and get it to me at a reasonable price and a timely manner....Seriously, Red Tide is the only one that can come close to this. I cant imagine getting a custom spear in under less then 5 days. Now I say he's a fast and efficient machine, but dont go making vacation plans, and 5 days before order spears and say "KY tony said you were quick, you ruined my vacation"
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Old 01-12-2017, 05:34 AM   #7
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Re: euro shaft curve notch vs american shaft square notch

As euroguns don't have cocking stocks the spear tail is closer to your chest when you draw the wishbone back, hence Jay Riffe has moved the shaft tab forwards so that it is easier to drop in when hauling the wishbone back. The idea of the cocking stock gun is the shaft tab or notch is further away from you and it is much easier to drop the wishbone in and you can almost look down and see it. In the USA and Australia cocking stock guns were some of the first guns developed, including this one the "Mare Dama". As you can see this gun was "cut from whole cloth", but it shows how people were thinking at the very beginning outside of Europe.
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Old 01-12-2017, 06:07 AM   #8
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Re: euro shaft curve notch vs american shaft square notch

Those Red Tide shafts do indeed look nice! Personally I prefer euro notch to square notch as I feel 90 degree angles in metal is prone to stress fractures. As for bands ... if you need more than 3 bands to get an 8.5mm shaft to terminal velocity then there is something wrong somewhere else. For high performance shaft flight you need a combination of things and a very good design that ensures the shaft comes out as stable as possible. Throwing more bands will not give you more velocity. Actually ... I am testing the Albacore 130 ... and moving from 3 x 14.5mm bands to 15mm small ID bands actually gave me less penetration on target with an 8.5mm @ 170cm shaft using same band stretch. Also moving down to 14mm small ID was again worse. Hard to believe that .5mm can make such a big difference, but it does. There is no difference as the shaft is already at TV ... now if I move to a 9mm shaft (and I plan to try that out) ... then maybe the 15mm small ID bands will show an advantage.
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Old 01-12-2017, 06:21 AM   #9
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Re: euro shaft curve notch vs american shaft square notch

Thank you Popgun Pete!! All you wisdom and knowledge on the history of spearfishing is mind boggling. How many books have you written?? I know between here and deeperblue you must have at least 3
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Old 01-12-2017, 01:33 PM   #10
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Re: euro shaft curve notch vs american shaft square notch

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Originally Posted by kwtony View Post
Thank you Popgun Pete!! All you wisdom and knowledge on the history of spearfishing is mind boggling. How many books have you written?? I know between here and deeperblue you must have at least 3
Agreed!

Look at the handle on that gun though. It looks ahead of its time.
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Old 01-12-2017, 01:44 PM   #11
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Re: euro shaft curve notch vs american shaft square notch

Looks like its designed to fit the end users hand. Unlike most guns out here that are meant to fit EVERY single persons hand in the world, regardless of comfort and fit.
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Old 01-12-2017, 01:58 PM   #12
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Re: euro shaft curve notch vs american shaft square notch

The "Mare Dama" is of 1952 vintage as can be seen in this old magazine advert. No dive shops back then, just sports stores and fishing tackle shops.
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Old 01-12-2017, 02:40 PM   #13
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Re: euro shaft curve notch vs american shaft square notch

Another early cocking stock speargun, the "Spearfisherman Magnum". This gun once had a big reel, now long gone. It uses a single-piece trigger and the alloy tubing is wrapped with heavy black vinyl tape, the worm drive clips for the reel attachment having left their marks in the tape.
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Old 01-12-2017, 05:10 PM   #14
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Re: euro shaft curve notch vs american shaft square notch

IIRC the strength difference with regards to shaft notch shape of round vs square was about 150 pounds, however failure threshold was over 1,000 pounds. Additionally the majority of failures as the result of mechanism testing by Bill Kitto were from sear tooth and sear pivot pins. Spear tail failures were only realized on Kitto's and Neptonics mechanisms when approaching 2,000 or more of force.

It's not likely anyone running less than 6, 5/8" bands will ever see 1,000 pounds on their mechanism or spear tail.

Additionally, its the bands that are dragging down the stock, not the wishbones. The further down the bands are placed from the shaft center line, the more they will drag. However like the inside of the ET track there will be a cushion/layer of water between the band and gun surface to separate and lubricate the band/gun interface as the band retracts.
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Old 01-12-2017, 05:27 PM   #15
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Re: euro shaft curve notch vs american shaft square notch

Ask Mori about tails busting off, apparently due to fractures before the shaft tails are even loaded up in the guns with the full band load applied. Kitto was using new shaft tails, or a replica tail, in fact I have one of them, for his testing device to avoid snapping tails and the then departing shaft body leaving the lab at high velocity because the device applied the force F without the energy (or F x d, the displacement). The shaft tails failed not from the stress applied, or resulting from wear and tear in service, they were damaged by some other mistreatment when out of the gun. The subject came up when I was looking at a safety for locking out a multi-band cocked gun by imprisoning all the levers, it was not a quick flick on and off safety, you had to deliberately set and engage this device. Mori said that no matter how well the trigger mechanism was locked up there was always the possibility that the shaft could escape if the tail snapped off at the rear notch where it was held in by the sear tooth. That is how the subject came up, personally I have not had a tail snap, but evidently it has happened, although it is a rare event. Apparently using the trigger mechanism as a make-shift vise to hold a shaft tail from rotating while you unscrew a stubborn speartip can also have implications for the shaft tail, but although tempted I have never done it, preferring a pair of locking grips instead.

Searching back the discussion was around the time of this thread in 2007: http://www.spearboard.com/showthread...iberate+safety

Last edited by popgun pete; 01-13-2017 at 06:32 AM. Reason: more info
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