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Old 10-10-2013, 11:02 PM   #16
mbhalihunter
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Re: The Truth About Sea Otter Expansion

You can thank the otters for the large size of the eastern pacific abalone. The evolution of the large size of abalone is an effect of the predation of the otters. Chumash Indian middens show boom and bust cycles of shellfish and otter carcasses. These middens are well known and studied from the Channel Islands. Southern California kelp forest ecology is driven from the lower trophic levels up and not top down like most ecosystems.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:03 PM   #17
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Re: The Truth About Sea Otter Expansion

And I want one of those otter jackets!
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:53 PM   #18
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Re: The Truth About Sea Otter Expansion

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I wonder how the current law suit is going.
http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=164429
Thanks for posting this, I missed this whole thread. Funny how even fairly well informed spearos do not realize that otters eat more than urchins. The reality is they eat everything, but seem to only eat urchins as a last resort. Up here in SLO I dive a few urchin barren areas. Lots of otters, but they seem to have zero interest in purple urchins. Why bother with those tiny things when other stuff is around. Crabs seem to be their #1 choice, with clams and abalone a followup. Lobster in the open have no protection from the fur faced trash mammal.

Back in the 70s and 80s guys regularly pulled lobster from holes up in SLO. Now they are extremely rare and, like our abalone, back in holes too far for an otter to reach into.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:55 PM   #19
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Re: The Truth About Sea Otter Expansion

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You can thank the otters for the large size of the eastern pacific abalone. The evolution of the large size of abalone is an effect of the predation of the otters. Chumash Indian middens show boom and bust cycles of shellfish and otter carcasses. These middens are well known and studied from the Channel Islands. Southern California kelp forest ecology is driven from the lower trophic levels up and not top down like most ecosystems.
I have a 10" abalone shell that has been bashed in by an otter. Not to say you are wrong, I think you are probably correct and I find it very interesting. Just saying they are a pretty determined predator and quite voracious.
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Old 10-11-2013, 02:12 AM   #20
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Re: The Truth About Sea Otter Expansion

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Thanks for posting this, I missed this whole thread. Funny how even fairly well informed spearos do not realize that otters eat more than urchins. The reality is they eat everything, but seem to only eat urchins as a last resort. Up here in SLO I dive a few urchin barren areas. Lots of otters, but they seem to have zero interest in purple urchins. Why bother with those tiny things when other stuff is around. Crabs seem to be their #1 choice, with clams and abalone a followup. Lobster in the open have no protection from the fur faced trash mammal.

Back in the 70s and 80s guys regularly pulled lobster from holes up in SLO. Now they are extremely rare and, like our abalone, back in holes too far for an otter to reach into.
Did otters not exist in the 80's? I think we really should look at what predators of theirs we have depleted so we can get things back in balance.
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Old 10-11-2013, 02:28 AM   #21
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Re: The Truth About Sea Otter Expansion

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Did otters not exist in the 80's? I think we really should look at what predators of theirs we have depleted so we can get things back in balance.
They were rare in the 80s, perhaps someone else can chime in with exactly how rare. In the 80s I was diving San Diego and Catalina only.

Humans are the otter's natural predator. White sharks bite plenty of them but I don't think they like the fluff, and otters have no tasty blubber layer. I have read that a pod of orkas in Alaska has started to feed on the otters up there.
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:19 AM   #22
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Re: The Truth About Sea Otter Expansion

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They were rare in the 80s, perhaps someone else can chime in with exactly how rare. In the 80s I was diving San Diego and Catalina only.

Humans are the otter's natural predator. White sharks bite plenty of them but I don't think they like the fluff, and otters have no tasty blubber layer. I have read that a pod of orkas in Alaska has started to feed on the otters up there.
Otters not rare at all in the 80's generally speaking. One might think otters were rare depending where one looks or not and all that stuff. If you were looking from a So-Cal perspective during the 50's, 60's, 70's, 8o's yes one might say otters were rare. During the same period if one were to look from Monterey to Morrow Bay one would say, yep there are otters. Make no mistake about it, otters and shellfish fishery's either recreational or commercial can not coexist where otters occupy. There is no recreational or commercial abalone harvest for the central coast because of otter occupation. The central coast was set aside for the sea otters. All efforts to keep sea otters from expanding either north or south of the central coast should be made if divers expect to have shellfish fishery's.
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:23 AM   #23
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Re: The Truth About Sea Otter Expansion

So what can be done? What do you do if you see an otter in Southern California when diving?
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:47 AM   #24
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Re: The Truth About Sea Otter Expansion

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So what can be done? What do you do if you see an otter in Southern California when diving?
What is being done rather than what can be done, and I do not know what is the status right now, is to support the current suit in the courts. Leading the fight to keep sea otters from expanding as the plaintiffs vs. USFWS is the commercial shell divers and fishermen and some recreational divers. The suit centers around, if judgement, in favor is awarded, will basically direct the USFWS to upkeep and maintain the sea otter trans location program, implying no malarkey in doing so by USFWS. As for seeing an otter, just wish him or her gone to another place; back to the control area.
Shortly I should have an update on the status of the suit.
More to come................
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Old 10-11-2013, 11:41 AM   #25
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Re: The Truth About Sea Otter Expansion

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Otters not rare at all in the 80's generally speaking. One might think otters were rare depending where one looks or not and all that stuff. If you were looking from a So-Cal perspective during the 50's, 60's, 70's, 8o's yes one might say otters were rare. During the same period if one were to look from Monterey to Morrow Bay one would say, yep there are otters. Make no mistake about it, otters and shellfish fishery's either recreational or commercial can not coexist where otters occupy. There is no recreational or commercial abalone harvest for the central coast because of otter occupation. The central coast was set aside for the sea otters. All efforts to keep sea otters from expanding either north or south of the central coast should be made if divers expect to have shellfish fishery's.
Your statement about recreational/commercial abalone is incorrect. There was a recreational and commercial harvest of abalone up until 1997 in southern and central california. The populations of abalone in the southern california bight, except for a san miguel island, are depressed because of over fishing by commercial and recreational fishermen. Add in the fact that the withering foot and the large el nino of the mid-nineties then you have no abalone. The abalone populations in central california were depressed because of commercial and recreational fishing, disease, and otter predation. The abalone populations in central californai are rebounding but will take a lot longer to rebound because of the otter population is at full carrying capacity.

When you look at that video the warden captain claims that scouts go out. These 'scouts' are young males who are not large enough to have their own territory because they cannot compete with larger male and female otters. These otters are the ones expanding the population range. Another thing to look at critically of that video in relation to the cojo pipeline is that there is zero account for withering foot and the mid 1990s El Nino that was extremely damaging to the santa barbara county kelp and algae populations. Huge amounts of reef forming worms that created substrate for macrocystis beds were wiped out.
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:09 PM   #26
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Re: The Truth About Sea Otter Expansion

The sea wolverines are nothing to mess with. In Monterey the Ab are all far back in crevasses. They can easily be found, but the small ones are no match for an otter and you can find 3 inch shells all over. It looks like Mendo at the end of Ab season, only 6 inch abs, and only wedged back in the deepest holes stacked on top of each other to avoid whatever is trying to eat them.
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:34 PM   #27
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Re: The Truth About Sea Otter Expansion

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The sea wolverines are nothing to mess with. In Monterey the Ab are all far back in crevasses. They can easily be found, but the small ones are no match for an otter and you can find 3 inch shells all over. It looks like Mendo at the end of Ab season, only 6 inch abs, and only wedged back in the deepest holes stacked on top of each other to avoid whatever is trying to eat them.
A lot of those very small ones are from Cabezon as well.
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:48 PM   #28
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Re: The Truth About Sea Otter Expansion

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Your statement about recreational/commercial abalone is incorrect. There was a recreational and commercial harvest of abalone up until 1997 in southern and central california. The populations of abalone in the southern california bight, except for a san miguel island, are depressed because of over fishing by commercial and recreational fishermen. Add in the fact that the withering foot and the large el nino of the mid-nineties then you have no abalone. The abalone populations in central california were depressed because of commercial and recreational fishing, disease, and otter predation. The abalone populations in central californai are rebounding but will take a lot longer to rebound because of the otter population is at full carrying capacity.

When you look at that video the warden captain claims that scouts go out. These 'scouts' are young males who are not large enough to have their own territory because they cannot compete with larger male and female otters. These otters are the ones expanding the population range. Another thing to look at critically of that video in relation to the cojo pipeline is that there is zero account for withering foot and the mid 1990s El Nino that was extremely damaging to the santa barbara county kelp and algae populations. Huge amounts of reef forming worms that created substrate for macrocystis beds were wiped out.
Am keenly aware that indeed there was both a commercial and recreational abalone fishery until 1997 in So-Cal water. In fact the former range for the So-Cal abalone fishery was and is really defined by the use of scuba or hooka which was an allowed tool to harvest abalone. The former was Yankee Point in Monterey County to Mexico. As for claiming abalone are rebounding in central California, sorry I do not thinks so based upon my own observations, which covers 39 years from Big Sur to Monterey, plus north of the golden Gate and to a very much lesser degree, some So-Cal diving for abalone during the seventies and eighty's. Are abalone seen by by divers on the central coast today, yes by divers who know where and how to look. One key to know where and how to look is to see new, fairly discarded abalone shells from otters kills is an indication always where to look among other things. As for withering foot being a prevalent coefficient to central coast red abalone, not so during that El Nino event of the 90's. Delta temps have everything to do with the on set of withering foot or not. Below surface water temps where red abalone occupy I understand for the most part were not outside of the temperature band for withering foot to manifest. And to be honest even during and after the El Nino events of the 90's whenever I looked for black abalone in the tidal area's along the central coast I found them and healthy too. Do I have to take a retired Wardens explanation about otter scouts, I do not. Have I see scouts, you bet. Will hens follow you bet. It only takes two you know and before you know it you have colony of shellfish killers whom pratice no regulation or size limits or practice conservation concepts and only move, disperse to other areas when the available shellfish resources are becoming exhausted. Second, what I do know and have seen is the language change in the ARMP from "may not be possible" to have abalone fishery's in the presents of otters to "are not possible". Are abalone population in So-Cal increasing? I would venture to say upon my latest and past in water occurrences of late, Catalina, man it's like I am not even looking for greens and I see them. How about you?
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:49 PM   #29
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Re: The Truth About Sea Otter Expansion

What upsets me is that my bio professor last semester was vomiting diarrhea about how urchins are otters primary food, and to rebuild kelp forests, we need the otters to eat the urchins, which kill off the kelp. What a load of garbage that's being taught to society.
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Old 10-11-2013, 04:48 PM   #30
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Re: The Truth About Sea Otter Expansion

Oh man it would be fun to pick them off with a 22 if they opened up a season for them below point conception. I know they wont thought because they're too cuddly and cute for the tree huggers to give up, regardless of common sense.

I would love some otter uggs.
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