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Old 09-25-2017, 06:13 AM   #46
Azure Recluse
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Re: Thoughts on Abellan Albacore 130 vs Bleutec Oceanborn 125 & King Cobra

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Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
I have more BT guns than any other brand gun at home, but the OB 145 is just too much power for that platform and that handle.
Thank you for all that info spearq8. Have you tried the Bleutec Nemesis? That looks like a great platform for 2 x 14mm small ID bands and a 7-7.5mm sigalsub shaft. For some reason, I am a huge sucker for carbon. The other carbon option I'm looking into is the Mythicon Argus.

The fella I spoke to about the Oceanborn used 2 x 16mm bands and a 7.5mm shaft. For a gun of that size, I was very surprised he used such a light setup but he said it worked for him and was its sweet spot. I figured he'd go with 3 bands but who am I to disagree with his opinion, when his boat brought in more fish than mine

If I wanted to pick up a wooden speargun, it would be an Abellan Denton or Albacore 130. Best in its class 100%... the Budak spearguns are also peaking my interest

PS. Sorry to the OP for derailing the thread... I am also in the same boat as you and want to find a gun I'm happy dropping 1-2K on
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Old 09-25-2017, 10:24 AM   #47
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Re: Thoughts on Abellan Albacore 130 vs Bleutec Oceanborn 125 & King Cobra

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Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
I just realized that the King Cobra is a Bleutec gun ... I had thought it was an Aimrite for some reason. I always wondered why the OB guns went from 125 to 145 ... it would seem a 135 would be a nice size. At 130cm that would be an interesting gun ... but again something needs to be done about the handle as for 99% of the people, they will be reaching for the trigger. When you reach for the trigger, the recoil will go straight into your thumb and with a powerful gun you quickly lose control. So if you can change that from the factory, that would certainly be a huge improvement. I do think that all Bleutec guns are not setup properly and you can quickly get a large improvement in performance by just switching out the bands to small ID bands. Other than the handle, the gun is really nice. I am always surprised at how accurate the trigger to shaft seating is ... for a pinned trigger this is always a problem, but on the Bleutec guns I never have seen a shaft fit where it has too much overhead. This is one of the reasons the gun is very accurate. The King Cobra with 3 x 15mm bands and an 8.5mm shaft would be a very interesting gun to try out.
I actually just pool tested my King Cobra the other day, not looking for shaft flight data but to get it ready for a tuna trip so we were shooting at a slightly downward angle in the pool.

Had it setup with an 8mm shaft, Steve Alexander sliptip and 2 x 15mm bands and 1.7mm stiff dyneema. Shot pretty good! No problem shooting some mahi a couple days earlier and was hitting the center of target with penetration out to 20ft but my buddy said the shaft looked a little slow.

Changed over to 3 x 15mm bands and it was crushing the targets with great penetration at 25ft!

Handle on mine has been modified, also added a line diverter from line release and I feel like that cleans things up quite a bit
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Old 09-25-2017, 11:07 AM   #48
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Re: Thoughts on Abellan Albacore 130 vs Bleutec Oceanborn 125 & King Cobra

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Originally Posted by Triton View Post
I actually just pool tested my King Cobra the other day, not looking for shaft flight data but to get it ready for a tuna trip so we were shooting at a slightly downward angle in the pool.

Had it setup with an 8mm shaft, Steve Alexander sliptip and 2 x 15mm bands and 1.7mm stiff dyneema. Shot pretty good! No problem shooting some mahi a couple days earlier and was hitting the center of target with penetration out to 20ft but my buddy said the shaft looked a little slow.

Changed over to 3 x 15mm bands and it was crushing the targets with great penetration at 25ft!

Handle on mine has been modified, also added a line diverter from line release and I feel like that cleans things up quite a bit
Mike, what size King Cobra? What is the weight of this gun vs the OB? Any pics of it with 3 bands loaded. What is the buoyancy like with shaft in? I wonder if Bleutec is hoping to replace the OB with this model...hard to tell without seeing them side by side. Also, did you modify the trigger distance (i.e. grind the back of the handle)?

I know this year, one of the sponsored divers (very experienced spearo from Florida) busted his face up very bad (maybe even broke his jaw or knocked teeth out) shooting the Oceanborn. It was up for a brief period of time on his IG page but not there anymore. I am sure he was asked to remove it by his sponsors. If it was one incident then I would write it off but this is the third time I have heard of it happening, I believe the other 2 times were documented here on the forum, with video. There has to be something wrong. If the trigger distance is too far from the rear of the handle, you would be forced to shift the palm to the side of the handle to get a comfortable grip. This is one of the reasons why I love interchangeable handles, which allow you to customize a handle but replace it with the stock handle for resale or loaning to a friend. I remember buying the Oceanborn and being so impressed with how well built it was and never thought I would sell it but after shooting it I think I had it for a month or two.

I am not bashing on the brand at all just pointing out a fact, that is based on my own experience as well as those from others.
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Old 09-25-2017, 12:02 PM   #49
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Re: Thoughts on Abellan Albacore 130 vs Bleutec Oceanborn 125 & King Cobra

Justin,

I believe the spearo you’re talking about is Wes Skinner. He was hunting dirty Water for yft. I.E behind a shrimp boat in 5-10ft of vis. I’ve held the King Cobra Triton has, and it is a beauty of a gun. So much sleeker than the OB and I believe a better comparison to the Abellan. I personally have not shot either but I’d guess it’d be a fine gun for anything besides marlin and 200+lb yft
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Old 09-25-2017, 12:13 PM   #50
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Re: Thoughts on Abellan Albacore 130 vs Bleutec Oceanborn 125 & King Cobra

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Originally Posted by jstiver09 View Post
Mike, what size King Cobra? What is the weight of this gun vs the OB? Any pics of it with 3 bands loaded. What is the buoyancy like with shaft in? I wonder if Bleutec is hoping to replace the OB with this model...hard to tell without seeing them side by side. Also, did you modify the trigger distance (i.e. grind the back of the handle)?

I know this year, one of the sponsored divers (very experienced spearo from Florida) busted his face up very bad (maybe even broke his jaw or knocked teeth out) shooting the Oceanborn. It was up for a brief period of time on his IG page but not there anymore. I am sure he was asked to remove it by his sponsors. If it was one incident then I would write it off but this is the third time I have heard of it happening, I believe the other 2 times were documented here on the forum, with video. There has to be something wrong. If the trigger distance is too far from the rear of the handle, you would be forced to shift the palm to the side of the handle to get a comfortable grip. This is one of the reasons why I love interchangeable handles, which allow you to customize a handle but replace it with the stock handle for resale or loaning to a friend. I remember buying the Oceanborn and being so impressed with how well built it was and never thought I would sell it but after shooting it I think I had it for a month or two.

I am not bashing on the brand at all just pointing out a fact, that is based on my own experience as well as those from others.
This one I'm using is a 130. I just measured it and it is 150cm overall, with 130cm band stretch on the shaft I am using. I definitely don't have very large hands and it fits perfectly in my hand, exactly where it should (middle of pad on last section of trigger finger).

Can't remember how the OB grip felt so can't say how it compares or if they changed anything.

I put an 8mm shaft on it with a size 6 meandros reel so it's pretty negative, ever so slightly muzzle heavy but not enough to make a difference for me.

I video'd the shots so I'll look and see if there's any that came out good or show how the bands lay and post it if the video turned out good
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Old 09-26-2017, 01:02 AM   #51
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Re: Thoughts on Abellan Albacore 130 vs Bleutec Oceanborn 125 & King Cobra

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Originally Posted by Azure Recluse View Post
Thank you for all that info spearq8. Have you tried the Bleutec Nemesis? That looks like a great platform for 2 x 14mm small ID bands and a 7-7.5mm sigalsub shaft. For some reason, I am a huge sucker for carbon. The other carbon option I'm looking into is the Mythicon Argus.

The fella I spoke to about the Oceanborn used 2 x 16mm bands and a 7.5mm shaft. For a gun of that size, I was very surprised he used such a light setup but he said it worked for him and was its sweet spot. I figured he'd go with 3 bands but who am I to disagree with his opinion, when his boat brought in more fish than mine

If I wanted to pick up a wooden speargun, it would be an Abellan Denton or Albacore 130. Best in its class 100%... the Budak spearguns are also peaking my interest

PS. Sorry to the OP for derailing the thread... I am also in the same boat as you and want to find a gun I'm happy dropping 1-2K on


I know a lot of you guys are going to roll your eyes and say here we go again. But really, there is no secret to get a gun to shoot well. It is not the brand or name of the gun ... it is the design that matters. You need to get the shaft out of the track stable with as little deviation or oscillation as possible. To do that you need to move the handle high up in the CG of the gun and then shape your handle to have the recoil go into your palm. This removes all leverage recoil has to move the muzzle around and destabilize the shaft on exit ... so the recoil energy goes into shaft velocity rather than energy that goes into destabilizing the shaft. This makes recoil a non issue as even the most horribly recoiling gun becomes a pleasant shove into the palm. But it also helps by putting all energy into shaft velocity and that velocity goes into a shaft that is absolutely stable. A stable shaft is a shaft that is going to lose very little velocity with distance and is going to be incredibly accurate. If anyone has not seen it, I put a lot of time and effort into the handle mod videos ... look at the theory and then look at shaping the handle. I actually think the theory part is the most important as it really gets behind the science of why even an 8.5mm shaft can generate so much power with only 3 thin bands ... and do it with incredible accuracy and flat shaft flight. Getting a shaft out of the track stable is important for any gun ... including mid handles and rollers. If you don't get the shaft out of the track stable velocity will quickly fizzle out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hz-4mgnvYM

Now setup wise ... an 8mm shaft is a bitch to get to shoot with decent power with only 2 bands. For example on the Denton 120, I actually had better shaft flight and performance with a 7.5mm shaft than an 8mm shaft. I need to test these new 15mm sID bands to see if it can flatten the trajectory. Of course when I say doesn't have decent power, I am talking about the loss of about 1.5m effective range ... it will still bag you a lot of fish. I had no problems shooting Dogtooth + YFT + GT with 2 x 14.5mm bands on a 140 band stretch Denton replica ... but on those longer shots you need to aim high. Now add a 3rd band and trajectory really flattens out. Put an 8.5mm shaft and 3 bands ... and things become ridiculous ... basically just aim and shoot and if you don't run out of shooting line you are going to hit where you aim. Of course that kind of power can also get you into trouble if you are on a reef. Trust me you just don't want to try and pull out an 8.5mm shaft that has been shot into a reef or rocks at full power.
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Old 09-26-2017, 04:00 AM   #52
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Re: Thoughts on Abellan Albacore 130 vs Bleutec Oceanborn 125 & King Cobra

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure Recluse View Post
Thank you for all that info spearq8. Have you tried the Bleutec Nemesis? That looks like a great platform for 2 x 14mm small ID bands and a 7-7.5mm sigalsub shaft. For some reason, I am a huge sucker for carbon. The other carbon option I'm looking into is the Mythicon Argus.

The fella I spoke to about the Oceanborn used 2 x 16mm bands and a 7.5mm shaft. For a gun of that size, I was very surprised he used such a light setup but he said it worked for him and was its sweet spot. I figured he'd go with 3 bands but who am I to disagree with his opinion, when his boat brought in more fish than mine

If I wanted to pick up a wooden speargun, it would be an Abellan Denton or Albacore 130. Best in its class 100%... the Budak spearguns are also peaking my interest

PS. Sorry to the OP for derailing the thread... I am also in the same boat as you and want to find a gun I'm happy dropping 1-2K on
No worries. I was actually looking into the nemesis about a year ago. From what I believe they don't actually make the gun anymore so you can't really find it anywhere unless you were to get it used.
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Old 09-26-2017, 08:00 AM   #53
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Re: Thoughts on Abellan Albacore 130 vs Bleutec Oceanborn 125 & King Cobra

With modern small ID bands I don't see a reason for a Rear Handle to use 4 bands. It's just added Recoil and added profile that makes a Rear Handle cumbersome. For example. 4 bands x regular ID used to be tied at 330% Your bands might be 33,34,35,36" That's 138" of Bands to track...... with small ID bands at 370% the same gun would measure 28,29,30" That's 87" of bands. Uge difference in Band recoil. (We feel recoil from two sources. One is that Weight x F of the arrow leaving the gun, the other is the Weight x F of the bands flinging forward then stopping) Game changer is the small ID bands. Take that OB, swap out for 3 small ID bands. You will have a smooth shooter. If you are very recoil sensitive use an 8mm rather than an 8.5mm or 11/32" and there is a very noticeable difference.

I would suggest a Grit coating on any handle to help stabilize shots. With a good grit coating that grip is stuck to your glove. My hands are not so big, though I do have long fingers, but my grip measurement is @70mm. I really like the way C4 uses an adjustable back grip to allow the user to microadjust their trigger pull.
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Old 09-26-2017, 08:41 PM   #54
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Re: Thoughts on Abellan Albacore 130 vs Bleutec Oceanborn 125 & King Cobra

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Finally my long awaited Albacore 130 in Teak.... beautiful combination of form and function....
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:54 AM   #55
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Re: Thoughts on Abellan Albacore 130 vs Bleutec Oceanborn 125 & King Cobra

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Finally my long awaited Albacore 130 in Teak.... beautiful combination of form and function....
Wow ... that is nice! Did you do this yourself? I wan't aware they were making them in teak. I did a Denton that long in teak that I now have CF wrapped and it can shoot the eyeball of a minnow. I really had to add a bunch of lead to get that gun ballasted even with an 8mm shaft.

There are a few changes I would do that I think really improve the performance of that gun. If interested PM and I will send you some pix of what I did.
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:35 AM   #56
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Re: Thoughts on Abellan Albacore 130 vs Bleutec Oceanborn 125 & King Cobra

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Originally Posted by Silvertriton View Post
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Finally my long awaited Albacore 130 in Teak.... beautiful combination of form and function....
That's a super nice gun! I think as of now I'm leaning more towards either a TeakSea Hyperion 135 or spending a little bit more to get either an Oceanborn or King Cobra. My thinking is that all 3 of these guns will track better side to side which would help tremendously in hunting situations. That Albacore, while it can probably shoot further than these, looks like it would be kind of cumbersome in the water. I think it performs exceptionally well in those pool test videos because all that's being measured is accuracy and effective ranges. However my thinking is that in hunting situations the 3 mentioned will be better overall.
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Old 09-27-2017, 07:12 AM   #57
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Re: Thoughts on Abellan Albacore 130 vs Bleutec Oceanborn 125 & King Cobra

@ Mattthemat, how do you like the pathos 140? If you want a gun that's easy to swing and has potential for range, I'd think a 130 or 140 pathos would be great with a few adjustments. My 120 open pro easily has 5m range from the tip for anything I target here and is very easy to swim with. Small ID bands, 1.6mm mono and a Sigalsub 7mm shaft made a big difference for me from the stock configuration
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Old 09-27-2017, 07:25 AM   #58
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Re: Thoughts on Abellan Albacore 130 vs Bleutec Oceanborn 125 & King Cobra

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Wow ... that is nice! Did you do this yourself? I wan't aware they were making them in teak. I did a Denton that long in teak that I now have CF wrapped and it can shoot the eyeball of a minnow. I really had to add a bunch of lead to get that gun ballasted even with an 8mm shaft.

There are a few changes I would do that I think really improve the performance of that gun. If interested PM and I will send you some pix of what I did.
Hi Majid, it is one of the very first original Abellan in teak. I would love any additional suggestion you may have. I have already bought a double roll ermes mech but not keen on changind the screws seats yet as i am afraid to ruin it. When Greekdiver has the new handle i will probably try that out.
I have not yet tried it in the water to check ballast and recoil but (relative to size) it has more mass and i guess density than my mahogany Denton 110. Also I like the spear and the Hunt slip tip with Dyneema for sure will kill fish just with its lethal looks. ;-)

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Old 09-27-2017, 10:45 AM   #59
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Re: Thoughts on Abellan Albacore 130 vs Bleutec Oceanborn 125 & King Cobra

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Originally Posted by mattthemat View Post
That's a super nice gun! I think as of now I'm leaning more towards either a TeakSea Hyperion 135 or spending a little bit more to get either an Oceanborn or King Cobra. My thinking is that all 3 of these guns will track better side to side which would help tremendously in hunting situations. That Albacore, while it can probably shoot further than these, looks like it would be kind of cumbersome in the water. I think it performs exceptionally well in those pool test videos because all that's being measured is accuracy and effective ranges. However my thinking is that in hunting situations the 3 mentioned will be better overall.
Here are a couple other thoughts and observations for a person who owns both the OB and the Albacore.

Actually the Abellan is much easier to move in the water than the OB. After using both, I feel the sharp cuttleshape is actually very cumbersome. First the OB is lighter and being so, any current or wave action really takes the gun and causes it to be unstable. Although it LOOKS like it should be easier to swing side to side better because it is thin, it is actually has the opposite effect. What happens is that if the gun is not kept perfectly level when you attempt to swing it, it will actually "catch and turn sideways. It is especially prone to this happening in current.

The second thing I did not like about the OB or the Raptor is that it is unusually larger in diameter because of the flat shape. This make it very tiring to hold the gun in the center while in the water. After hours of spearing my hand was cramping and hurting because of that much too large diameter barrel.

The Abellan on the other hand is PERFECTLY balanced right out of the box. Because of that, it is a breeze to swing and carry all day long. Even though it is heavier, the balance and shape makes it effortless to carry for hours of diving.

Because of the lack of weight and mass, the OB gun has a large amount of recoil. After shooting it all day, my wrist hurt. The Denton on the other hand, has good mass and recoil with 3 14.5mm bands cut to 370% is much less than the OB.

Last point to note is that bands normally lay perfectly flat on the Abellan where on the OB they do. They will if you move them but with the Abellan, its automatic. I just checked the TeakSea Hyperion 135 and with the bands loaded, it looks like a mess.

I will admit I got caught up in the hype of the OB and Raptor guns and especially the shape and design. For me, the shape and design actually gave the gun opposite characteristics of what you would think.

I saw a King Cobra at a local diveshop recently. With this gun BT looks to be moving away from the older OB and Raptor shape.

My vote no questions asked, the Albacore. If you have never seen or held the Abellan, you need to do that before you make your choice. Its impressive to say the least
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:04 PM   #60
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Re: Thoughts on Abellan Albacore 130 vs Bleutec Oceanborn 125 & King Cobra

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I just checked the TeakSea Hyperion 135 and with the bands loaded, it looks like a mess.
?? Did you see the picture I posted? Here it is again. How is this a mess? I would say it looks about as clean as it could get...
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