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Diving Safety, Accidents and Incidents Post here to discuss accidents, incidents, ideas, gear, or anything else to improve spearfishing safety. Memorials and condolences threads should be placed in that separate forum.

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Old 04-11-2012, 10:04 AM   #16
merMAN
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Re: How Much Deeper Can i Dive With freediving fins and proper gear?

You said hyperventilating tricks the body into thinking it has more air...I was taught that the main reason for this is to get a better ratio of O2 to CO2, since having part of your lungs filled with CO2 is just a waste of space and won't help you on your dive. But I guess that exhaling completely everything would give you the same results...I'll give it a try next time I go out. It's hard for me to imagine the people at PFI are teaching everyone dangerous methods (5 fast inhales before final breath), but the sport is always evolving so maybe you found something better?
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Old 04-11-2012, 10:21 AM   #17
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Re: How Much Deeper Can i Dive With freediving fins and proper gear?

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You said hyperventilating tricks the body into thinking it has more air...I was taught that the main reason for this is to get a better ratio of O2 to CO2, since having part of your lungs filled with CO2 is just a waste of space and won't help you on your dive. But I guess that exhaling completely everything would give you the same results...I'll give it a try next time I go out. It's hard for me to imagine the people at PFI are teaching everyone dangerous methods (5 fast inhales before final breath), but the sport is always evolving so maybe you found something better?
I suppose it is evolving pretty quickly as a sport, but hyperventilation is a dangerous game. As soon as you start to hyperventilate you dont clear you lungs of c02 but drastically alter the PH balance of the blood... causing a reduced desire to breathe and a very strong 02 bond.
Even someone with a large residual volume would suffer no excess of c02 in the lungs after a solid final breathe out.
Try it... you will find your dives are more 'difficult' but that's just a case of needing to condition against the high c02. You will actually increase your safe bottom time as the 02 can be released in to your organs etc.
Remember high c02 hurts but wont kill you... low 02 will!
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Old 04-11-2012, 10:46 AM   #18
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Re: How Much Deeper Can i Dive With freediving fins and proper gear?

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I suppose it is evolving pretty quickly as a sport, but hyperventilation is a dangerous game. As soon as you start to hyperventilate you dont clear you lungs of c02 but drastically alter the PH balance of the blood... causing a reduced desire to breathe and a very strong 02 bond.
Even someone with a large residual volume would suffer no excess of c02 in the lungs after a solid final breathe out.
Try it... you will find your dives are more 'difficult' but that's just a case of needing to condition against the high c02. You will actually increase your safe bottom time as the 02 can be released in to your organs etc.
Remember high c02 hurts but wont kill you... low 02 will!
May I add that hyperventilating will only minimally increase your blood saturation levels of O2 ( from like 98% to 99.9 % ) but will definitely lower your blood CO2 levels ( as CO@ diffusion through the alveolar membrane is much faster) , sometimes so much that even when it goes back up, it will not be enough to trigger your desire for air ( diaphragmatic contractions ) making hypoxic SWB an easy consequence.
I strongly suggest a freediving course......
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Old 04-11-2012, 10:49 AM   #19
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Re: How Much Deeper Can i Dive With freediving fins and proper gear?

I cannot recommend Richard Binstock enough!! He is stellar!!! The guy knows his stuff and will get you there! He has an awesome set up in the Bahamas.

Normally the Level 2 class is $595 + boat fees.

Here is is course schedule.

http://extranet.freedivinginstructor...dinstructor=17

I've spent a lot of time with Richard both training and learning how to be an instructor. If you're looking for anything in the Bahamas, HE IS THE MAN!

Good luck!
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Old 04-11-2012, 11:06 AM   #20
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Re: How Much Deeper Can i Dive With freediving fins and proper gear?

I took the PFI free diving intro course, and if I remember correctly, they only advised the 5-6 quick breaths when doing wet static apnea in a pool while being supervised. I had great instructors, who said that the few 5-6 quick breaths ... which nobody like to call hyperventilating, is just that hyperventilating.

If you are just trying to hold your breath longer competitively, and have supervision on the side of the pool, giving instructions and watching your response ques closely, feel free to hyperventilate (in my opinion). If you are going below the surface for a dive, recreationally, never hyperventilate. You are playing with your life. Yes, it makes it more comfortable, but it is that uncomfortable feeling that you need to both get comfortable with and listen to. You can get better and improve your technique and abilities with proper training and safe actions. Hyperventilating is not safe when diving.
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Old 04-11-2012, 11:47 AM   #21
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Re: How Much Deeper Can i Dive With freediving fins and proper gear?

Thanks FreediveUK and everyone else for the help, this has taught me allot, for me unfortunately, i always hyperventilate on the surface, maby 5 to 10 deep breaths, unless I'm doing a quick dive, i have not suffered SWB yet, but i am afraid of it. I've also hyperventilated like 15 times before doing a 80ft dive, but i guess i know to well when to turn back and not push myself to far.

what method should i use to dive? maby 5 slow deep breaths? and one large to fill the lungs?

and how long can i actually stay down with that need to gasp for air??

do i just push through the pain? it's pretty intense ill tell you that..

how far can you go past the point of needing to highly gasp for air before you blackout?

also how deep can the frenzel maneuver effectively take me?

Thanks so much for the info!
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Old 04-11-2012, 01:33 PM   #22
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Re: How Much Deeper Can i Dive With freediving fins and proper gear?

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Now...... To refer to 'iamasalmon's post...C02 does not reduce when you dive... it increases! It is this increase which triggers the need to breathe. So when we hyperventilate we trick the body by getting rid of that trigger allowing us to apparently stay under for longer, but in reality our body is still using the 02 at the same rate so we can possibly push it too far and then we enter the realm of SWB.

So to all those who hyperventilate before a dive.... STOP. :
Thanks for the clarification, this is what I was trying to say... you did a much better job of 'splainin it than I did.

I havent taken a class yet, but I've been reading up as much as I can, so please correct me if i've been misinformed. Mostly I'm posting this to get my thoughts (and misconceptions) out there and have some experts tell me where I'm wrong.

"how far can you go past the point of needing to highly gasp for air before you blackout?"

This depends on sooo many things, its probably why proper instruction and always having a buddy watch you is a good idea. Here are a few that i can think of.
1. Going deep increases the partial pressure of o2 in the brain and you may be able to function properly (not black out) at depth, but as soon as you release the pressure, PP O2 drops and suddenly there is not enough...
2. Tired or stressed muscles are still using o2 long after they've stopped moving. This can sap you blood of O2 as it circulates, and may hit your brain with low o2 blood at the most inconvenient time (see #1)
3. food in you belly also takes o2 from you blood as it takes energy to digest (lots of energy, in my case IDK if its unique. I cant dive on a full stomach, BT sucks)
4. Alchohol or drugs can make you feel like superman... until you pass out.

Add to all of this hyperventilating, which tricks your brain into thinking it has more O2. I've passed out while doing breath hold exercises (prolly from doing them wrong) at home and can tell you that hyperventilating can make it easy to push your body into blackout. You may never even feel the need to gasp for air, and I imagine that this is especially pronounced at depth, where pressure is increased (that is until you surface and pressure goes down).

Awesome thread guys, thanks a lot...Always learning!
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Old 04-11-2012, 02:05 PM   #23
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Re: How Much Deeper Can i Dive With freediving fins and proper gear?

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Thanks FreediveUK and everyone else for the

what method should i use to dive? maby 5 slow deep breaths? and one large to fill the lungs?

and how long can i actually stay down with that need to gasp for air??

do i just push through the pain? it's pretty intense ill tell you that..

how far can you go past the point of needing to highly gasp for air before you blackout?

also how deep can the frenzel maneuver effectively take me?

Thanks so much for the info!
Looks like this thread is on track now. Some good advice being banded about! 'iamasalmon' has gone through some good bits of advice there.

OP... I would say 12 breaths or about 2 minutes of relaxed breathing to start with (this will lower your heartrate and fill you with o2).
Then go through the final breaths tutorial which i posted the link for in my first response.
How long you stay down for will be up to you, fitness, relaxation and technique. Take a look at the performance polygon which i posted the other day, it will help in your training.
http://freediveuk.wordpress.com/2012...festyle-table/
BABY STEPS is the key to freediving training. Dont ever push yourself way beyond what you have done before.
How far you can take it before blackout is all down to the individual. Practice with a buddy in a pool and use that as a controlled environment for finding your limits. Remember if you do blackout (and survive!) you will be more likely to blackout on future dives.... so avoid it at all costs.
The frenzel will take you down to your residual volume.... the point where their is no more usable air in your heavily compressed lungs to use for equalisation. For a new diver this may be between 20-30m. With training you may get to 40m without needing to use the mouthfill.
Dive safe.
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Old 04-11-2012, 02:18 PM   #24
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Re: How Much Deeper Can i Dive With freediving fins and proper gear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoproTheron View Post
Thanks FreediveUK and everyone else for the help, this has taught me allot, for me unfortunately, i always hyperventilate on the surface, maby 5 to 10 deep breaths, unless I'm doing a quick dive, i have not suffered SWB yet, but i am afraid of it. I've also hyperventilated like 15 times before doing a 80ft dive, but i guess i know to well when to turn back and not push myself to far.what method should i use to dive? maby 5 slow deep breaths? and one large to fill the lungs?

and how long can i actually stay down with that need to gasp for air??

do i just push through the pain? it's pretty intense ill tell you that..

how far can you go past the point of needing to highly gasp for air before you blackout?

also how deep can the frenzel maneuver effectively take me?

Thanks so much for the info!
DANGER, DANGER DANGER!!!! I have never hyperventilated nor have I purged before a dive. I dive 50m and I've never done anything of the sort... I would work on your CO2 tolerance. Even better, take a class and stream line the trial and error process. It will be the best money ever spent.

Try to take from either FII or PFI. They are very safe organizations with a very good track record.

safe diving!

Errol

Last edited by flamencoguru; 04-11-2012 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:04 PM   #25
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Re: How Much Deeper Can i Dive With freediving fins and proper gear?

I got a question for you ... have you ever felt and been through real contractions?

You can really go a lot longer without breathing than you think you can. It hurts, but you can go longer. The pain is part of apnea. For me the pain is a good sign. It is something that you can judge the time of your depth by. By hyperventilating, you delay the onset of the pain, but you do not delay the onset of the actual physical penalties that your body suffers from lack of oxygen ... you just dont feel them as early. By not feeling them, you trick yourself into a false sense of security, thinking you are just fine because you dont feel much pain ... you could be very close to blacking out and not even know it. Being able to feel that pain, which is really only a build up of CO2, and know that you still have oxygen to function, for me is what free diving is about.
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:59 AM   #26
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Re: How Much Deeper Can i Dive With freediving fins and proper gear?

the best way to learn how to deal with that pain is on land...there are a lot of threads on here with great training exercises that will help you figure out when to keep pushing, and when to listen to the pain

definitely appreciate all the comments about hyperventilating...still hard to put aside what PFI taught me but it makes total sense
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:17 PM   #27
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Re: How Much Deeper Can i Dive With freediving fins and proper gear?

Re: hyperventilation

One thing that hasn't been mentioned about hyperventilation is that among other things it alters blood pH in a way that blocks the dive reflex. So when you hyperventilate you are never really training your body's dive reflex. Leads to a performance plateau.. A lot of breath-up in a rested state is basically hyperventilation; while spearing you are exercising so your breathing needs change but anytime you are breathing abnormally prior to a drop just to avoid contractions you are almost definitely doing something wrong...
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Old 04-14-2012, 11:14 PM   #28
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Re: How Much Deeper Can i Dive With freediving fins and proper gear?

I am an inexpierenced spearo and have not taken a freedive class yet( going to in may) so take what I say with a grain of salt, however the best advice I ever got is diving with Leo from spearfishingtoday in Cozumel. The man dives forever ( I mean it) to sick depths. When we asked what he does for breathe up and prep for diving he laughed and said just relax your body and mind, breathe and dive. No over thinking, no hyperventilating, no b.s. no lung packing, no nada. Just relax and dive.
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Old 04-14-2012, 11:47 PM   #29
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Re: How Much Deeper Can i Dive With freediving fins and proper gear?

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I am an inexpierenced spearo and have not taken a freedive class yet( going to in may) so take what I say with a grain of salt, however the best advice I ever got is diving with Leo from spearfishingtoday in Cozumel. The man dives forever ( I mean it) to sick depths. When we asked what he does for breathe up and prep for diving he laughed and said just relax your body and mind, breathe and dive. No over thinking, no hyperventilating, no b.s. no lung packing, no nada. Just relax and dive.
I dove with Leo earlier this year while staying in Boca Paila. He is a good guy and great spearo. He is a total animal--lives in the water, diving every day. When I went out with him he was weighted heavier than many instructors would recommend but in addition to being very strong, he dives in clear water and has dedicated safety at the top.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:38 PM   #30
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Re: How Much Deeper Can i Dive With freediving fins and proper gear?

Just wanted to give a thank you for the great info and links in the thread!
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