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Old 03-31-2018, 11:51 AM   #46
Triton
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

Mario contacted me and let me know he is sending me some replacement parts. Anyone that has ordered a mech from us will get them when they arrive and we will replace the ones we have in stock.

I myself have seen the roller skew, but it has never gotten stuck and worked flawlessly when I was offshore last week. It shot and killed fish perfectly. Nothing like what NPG-70 described so maybe there's something else going on there. The one in that picture actually looks like a different version than the ones we got in.
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Old 03-31-2018, 09:01 PM   #47
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

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Mario contacted me and let me know he is sending me some replacement parts. Anyone that has ordered a mech from us will get them when they arrive and we will replace the ones we have in stock.

I myself have seen the roller skew, but it has never gotten stuck and worked flawlessly when I was offshore last week. It shot and killed fish perfectly. Nothing like what NPG-70 described so maybe there's something else going on there. The one in that picture actually looks like a different version than the ones we got in.
Mine looks different as I cut off the rear fixing eye...it was in the way of my rear sight. I cant see that affecting performance any, as the mech is fully retained by the rear pin.

I did put my glasses on to see why mine was shooting horrible and everyone else's was great though and while having a close look, I can't see how either the front or back roller could actually roll! I might not understand fully how the rollers work as it is hard to see it operate under full load, but my understanding, through my glasses, is this:

If looking at the mech with the front (trigger) to the left, when the trigger is pulled, despite having a freely rotating roller in the cradle under no load, mine does not rotate during the cycle (with downward finger pressure on the seer) and you can feel the roller scraping on the trigger throughout the pull. The geometry, to me, looks as though for the roller to actually roll on the trigger, it would need to overcome the friction between itself and the cradle to rotate clockwise within it, to the point of release. But during the cycle the difference in radius of contacting surfaces between the roller and cradle remains very small, but increases between the roller and trigger offering less friction and hence slides over the trigger sear as opposed to rolling over it...if that makes sense.

Would it not be the same for the rear roller? For the roller to "roll" out of the notch, would it not have to overcome the friction between itself and shaft seer and rotate anticlockwise within it? Again during the cycle, wouldn't the difference in contacting radii suggest that the least amount of friction be between the shaft notch and the roller and the slide to occur here?

So to me, it seems like its operation still experiences friction at the same two points as does a traditional mech as the rollers are unable to overcome the friction between their cradle surfaces.

I don't mean to be negative here just trying to understand why mine shoots exactly like Majd describes the feel of a heavily scored pathos mech yet everyone else is lodging reports of great performance!
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Old 03-31-2018, 09:12 PM   #48
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

NPG - have you shot the standard dbl roller mech?
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Old 03-31-2018, 09:16 PM   #49
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

I base all my builds around the D'angelo 2 and would love to get a double roller mech into them. I don't have a gun with a handle suitable for the original Ermes DR mech and have yet to shoot it. But the reports of the perfomance gains are impossible to ignore hence my interest in the Pathos DR mech.
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Old 03-31-2018, 09:53 PM   #50
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

yep, that is some serious commitment to the Pathos handle thanks for posting the pics!

same - havent found anything as light and comfortable in my hand as the D2, and sooo streamlined, tho prefer the mass of wood for more powerful setups, which of course the standard DR mechs are perfect for

just using aly pipe with D2 handle as the pathos pipe is so light and survives serious abuse.

Seems my Pathos DR mech hasnt been dispatched yet, so will be fortunate to benefit from the proto issue reports and ideas you guys have posted, thanks!

radical those fairlead sights on yr guns NPG they effective for actual hunting? or just for target work?
I've been using raised butt pad, bout 20mm above shaft plane, to sight in for target work, do a heap of that so when out hunting the instinctual aim's spot on. critical for me with smaller lighter guns as swinging on fish so quick you just dont have time to sight in like you do tracking big fish in open water

thanks again all for sharing ideas and dev work on this mech

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Old 03-31-2018, 10:01 PM   #51
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

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Originally Posted by kavachi View Post
yep, that is some serious commitment to the Pathos handle thanks for posting the pics!

same - havent found anything as light and comfortable in my hand as the D2, and sooo streamlined, tho prefer the mass of wood for more powerful setups, which of course the standard DR mechs are perfect for

just using aly ipe with D2 handle as the pathos pipe is so light and survives serious abuse.

Seems my Pathos DR mech hasnt been dispatched yet, so will be fortunate to benefit from the proto issue reports and ideas you guys have posted, thanks!

radical those fairlead sights on yr guns NPG they effective for actual hunting? or just for target work?
I've been using raised butt pad, bout 20mm above shaft plane, to sight in for target work, do a heap of that so when out hunting the instinctual aim's spot on. critical for me with smaller lighter guns as swinging on fish so quick you just dont have time to sight in like you do tracking big fish in open water

thanks again all for sharing ideas and dev work on this mech
Thnx Kavachi...I'll start another thread about the sights rather than divert this one.
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Old 04-01-2018, 12:01 PM   #52
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

All the Pathos DR triggers I have are duds. I think I got 6 of them sent to me and all of them had front rollers that won't turn properly. Mario made a change on a batch, and that apparently was enough of a change to alter how the front roller works. I managed to fix the turning with a drill but with bands loaded the roller won't turn. Of course there is the issue of the back roller as well. This trigger needs to be reworked and already I put up a list of things that should change. In the meantime to get things working for existing trigger I think there is a solution. I would still not consider it a trigger I would like to buy, but at least it will work. The longer pin as Kodama mentioned will certainly work as the Pathos handle has grooves for the older pin line release and they happen to match with the location of the back roller. So the extended pins will not touch the thermoplastic handle. This along with a wider back roller (6.7mm) will fix the back roller issue for Pathos guns that have the slots for the pin line release. A new shaft sear with modified cradle will also be changed. I am not sure if Pathos has a new handle without the slots, but if they do then this won't work and will need to wait for the next version.

When making the double roller trigger for Pathos we came up with 2 systems. Mario had this floating roller system and I was working on another system. I was never really sure that the floating roller would work, but testing it on the original double roller box, it seemed to work well. I think Mario just figured if it works on the bigger box then it should work on the smaller Pathos box without testing. That was not good judgement. Everything needs to be tested and put through a full test cycle, especially if it is using a yet unproven system. If anyone has one of these triggers, contact Mario and he will replace it with a new one or with parts to fix the ones they have. If you have problems contacting him PM me and I will try to get the message to him.

On another note, with those new 6 triggers I also got the parts for the alternate system. I just came out of the pool ... and man does it work well. 55 simultaneous shots inside one 3cm hole dead center at a distance of 5 meters with a Pathos 120 using purposely made heavy 14.8mm bands stretched at 380% (to stress the trigger). Absolutely the best trigger pull I have yet to try. So at least I know for sure that there will be an extremely effective trigger for the Pathos or other small framed triggers needed for pipe guns. Of course 55 shots is not many shots, but taking the parts out and looking at them under magnification I have no doubts this will work well.
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Old 04-01-2018, 12:22 PM   #53
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

55 shots, back to back, though a 3cm hole @ 5m is tight...hard work too.

You have me excited again Majd...any idea when these alternate parts will be available and will it be through Mario?

cheers for the update.
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Old 04-01-2018, 12:40 PM   #54
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

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55 shots, back to back, though a 3cm hole @ 5m is tight...hard work too.

You have me excited again Majd...any idea when these alternate parts will be available and will it be through Mario?

cheers for the update.
It depends, if a patent needs to be put on this then it will take time. If not, this can be ready tomorrow.
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Old 04-05-2018, 03:51 PM   #55
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

Changed the original back roller pin to a 2,5mm by 14 mm pin. It avoids the roller from skewing.





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Old 04-06-2018, 09:54 AM   #56
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

Today I looked back on some of the older triggers I tried, and one of them was a Pathos with back roller. The back roller was 8mm and 6.4mm wide. I put it on with the smaller pin and it would not skew no matter how hard I tried. I guess Mario put in the 7mm roller because that is what is on the regular double roller. Maybe this needs to move to an 8mm roller for these boxes that get wider on top. Of course the shaft sear needs to be adjusted to cradle the 8mm roller ... but the shaft sear needs to be redesigned anyway so it shouldn't be a problem.
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Old 04-07-2018, 04:17 AM   #57
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

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Today I looked back on some of the older triggers I tried, and one of them was a Pathos with back roller. The back roller was 8mm and 6.4mm wide. I put it on with the smaller pin and it would not skew no matter how hard I tried. I guess Mario put in the 7mm roller because that is what is on the regular double roller. Maybe this needs to move to an 8mm roller for these boxes that get wider on top. Of course the shaft sear needs to be adjusted to cradle the 8mm roller ... but the shaft sear needs to be redesigned anyway so it shouldn't be a problem.


That in combination with a pin that is sufficiently long would be the best solution. In the meantime I got this trigger working just fine for now. Would love to exchange parts to make it even better when they become available.
In a couple of weeks I am leaving for a spearfishing trip. Will put this beta version of the trigger true itís paces and report back here.



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Old 04-07-2018, 01:28 PM   #58
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

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That in combination with a pin that is sufficiently long would be the best solution. In the meantime I got this trigger working just fine for now. Would love to exchange parts to make it even better when they become available.
In a couple of weeks I am leaving for a spearfishing trip. Will put this beta version of the trigger true it’s paces and report back here.



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I think the longer pin should work well with the existing back roller and that is a good workaround for those who got the first defective batch. In my case I just took a pin from the normal double roller (which is 14mm) and ground down a roller also from a double roller from 10mm to 6.8mm. But really, you just don't want pins sticking out of a mechanism as that can cause many sorts of problems. Also this mech was supposed to work for Pathos but also work for any smaller framed wood or carbon guns that want a thin box.

Basically what will change is that the oval cut for the roller on the box will be about .6mm lower, and the shaft sear will use an 8mm roller rather than the 7mm. The back roller will be 8mm and a little wider ... this ensures that the roller will never skew and get stuck. The shaft sear will be redesigned to take the 8mm roller and some changes to the claw to ensure the front roller turns. Also the front roller will be slightly wider so that if the roller edges are chamfered they will not eat up from the roller contact surface area. Also the front reinforcing insert that was designed in was omitted. Apparently it was very difficult to put that insert in, but I had no problems. I think that the laser cut left the edges of the insert so that they would not enter the slit that was in the box. I just lightly filed the edges with a ceramic stone and it fit perfect. The trigger is much stronger with the front insert installed as the box is only 1.5mm thick (unlike the double roller which 2mm). The trigger also looks much nicer with the insert in.

Once all this is done this should be a really good trigger and anyone with a Pathos gun will be very happy. It is incredible how much a simple trigger change can transform a ho hum speargun into a tack shooter.
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Old 04-16-2018, 09:24 AM   #59
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

I finally got the custom shafts in from GR at Ride Tide that I ordered for my carbon laser 130 project (awesome shats by the way, 8mm x 160 cm shafts fit the muzzle just perfect with flopper tucked in nicely). I had some time to get 60 or so shots between 2 pool sessions. I tied up 2 14.5mm small ID bands hot at 400% to really test this trigger.

Unfortunately my results were very much like NPG70's. The trigger pull felt like it had several stages to it with the last stage being unpredictable and what I would estimate as around a 15 lb trigger pull. My results with loading a shaft and gravity releasing the shaft had been great so I was optimistic that I had recieved one of the good ones. The front roller rolled fine with no load but with those hot bands I imagine there was no rolling. One of the last loading sequences I had not noticed that the back roller had skewed in the trigger and as I loaded the shaft it jammed the back roller in there to the point I had to use a pick to free up the roller.

Attached are pics of the back roller afterwards. I am optimistic things will get sorted out. I am very interested in Madj's "alternate" system.

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Old 04-16-2018, 11:48 AM   #60
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

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I finally got the custom shafts in from GR at Ride Tide that I ordered for my carbon laser 130 project (awesome shats by the way, 8mm x 160 cm shafts fit the muzzle just perfect with flopper tucked in nicely). I had some time to get 60 or so shots between 2 pool sessions. I tied up 2 14.5mm small ID bands hot at 400% to really test this trigger.

Unfortunately my results were very much like NPG70's. The trigger pull felt like it had several stages to it with the last stage being unpredictable and what I would estimate as around a 15 lb trigger pull. My results with loading a shaft and gravity releasing the shaft had been great so I was optimistic that I had recieved one of the good ones. The front roller rolled fine with no load but with those hot bands I imagine there was no rolling. One of the last loading sequences I had not noticed that the back roller had skewed in the trigger and as I loaded the shaft it jammed the back roller in there to the point I had to use a pick to free up the roller.

Attached are pics of the back roller afterwards. I am optimistic things will get sorted out. I am very interested in Madj's "alternate" system.


It seems like there is visible wear on the back roller? Could you confirm whether that is the case?


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