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Old 08-07-2012, 11:42 PM   #46
Kelsea
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Re: 2012 Nationals Results

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Originally Posted by dennishaussler View Post

My problem arises when divers, not the general public, come on this forum and trash talk, degrade, and belittle comp divers for whatever reason they heard from their friends....
Yep. Its one thing to be critical of a dive comp format or a person's strategy/style. And I'm totally at peace with that the opinions of non-comp divers.

Its another thing entirely to read people attacking specific notable divers on a personal level. I am referring to a very specific post that got taken down.. I understand people can have their opinions of others, but dammit, if someone starts a thread asking about scores... and all you contribute is personal attack??? Uber Lame.

Its also one thing to talk about stuff offline - its a whole other thing to place such attacks on a public forum. Once its there, its there. Someone read it. And its saved in my gmail notification emails. Done. Good job.

Some interesting reads - but its not too much different from any other SB thread on comps. Same ol back and forth stuff.

Have fun boys. Now that final exams have calmed down, I have a comp to scout for. Ciao!
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Old 08-08-2012, 01:00 AM   #47
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Re: 2012 Nationals Results

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Originally Posted by Kelsea View Post
Rich,

Sadly, due to their rule change to no longer allow "sponsored divers", divers like myself, Kimi, Julie Riffe, Richard Balta... or anyone on Team Riffe for that matter, can't go to that particular tournament. Is that fair for divers like myself?

I am poor as hell due to school. I have no time and no team working for me. I am sad to hear that you welcome this rule change. For me, that rule change sucks.

My sponsorship includes gear whenever I need it. But I dont ask for much from Riffe. I am not paid by them. I work very hard for my sponsorship and it is by no means free...

I liked the Triton X tournament. I will miss having as much fun as I did the year I went up there and got that huge octopus.

I empathize with your views on what is fair for a tournament... however, a rule change of No Scuba scouting or something like that would been a better call.. But for the Freedive Shop, its their tournament, their rules.

Still, This thread is about the Nationals. I was hoping it would be a positive welcome for those guys and gals that did work very hard and honest in some nasty conditions. Lets try to keep it with that tone, please.

I really welcome you to attend the Pacific Coast Championships. Last year, there was NO scouting allowed. At all. And the location of the dive meet was not even announced until the morning of. That really leveled the playing field for a lot of novice divers to really have a great time. I think you'd really dig the style of that meet and the kind of challenge and fun that goes with it.

Dive safe and be well,

K
Well babe; I agree with Diablo Loco- you covered this subject with a lot of class. I too wonder what a rule of this type does to stifle a good time for true competitors who do whatever it is they do simply for the deep satisfaction of competing against their fellow man.
Tournaments can be designed to maximize the effort on the day of the meet, while preserving the essence of freediving for fish. Limit electronic aids. Limit allowable scouting practices. Maybe one could agree that a team could not be a full blown nationals style team- say any team sponsored as a whole.

But to do it right, make it so the competitors can go out and give it their all, and everyone can have their chance at a win via some luck and hard effort.
The ONLY reason a person should be excluded would be for cheating- which is different from making a mistake with a short fish, or a fish taken over limit.

Kelsey makes a very good point.
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Old 08-08-2012, 02:31 AM   #48
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Re: 2012 Nationals Results

Someone sponser me. I'll shoot all the perch and guitarfish in the world!!
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Old 08-08-2012, 10:26 AM   #49
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Re: Thoughts about spearfishing competition

I think a pretty basic point is being missed in this argument which is the real issue with all freediving fatalities-comp and non comp. Competitive spearfishing does not kill freedivers. Diving without direct supervision does. A tournament format could make it harder to establish this protocol but I have also seen firsthand that team hunting can be a very successful way to hunt, and I wholeheartedly agree that is something we need to promote more in a competitive format.

As far as stealing "the soul of the sport" or being a "mine is bigger" contest I think that couldn't be further from the truth. I met several past and current champions last week who went out of their way to help us Florida boys, give us advice (not spots, of course), and pass on one of the greatest concentrations of spearfishing knowledge you can even imagine. I found champions like Dennis and Dan to show the highest degree of ethics and sportsmanship and come across as approachable humble guys who you realize just happen to put more effort into their training, scouting and skills than most of us are able (or more truthfully willing) to do. I was so impressed with past champions-legends like Bill Ernst, Terry Maas, the McGuires, Don Barthman and Dale Sanders-quietly working behind the scenes, doing the unpleasant and hard jobs to make the tournament run smooth, with not even a hint of ego or unapproachability.

Coming from Florida with a week of scout time and having done previous Nationals, we had no illusion of dominating or beating guys who had a higher commitment or investment of time but we had something to prove to ourselves- going to an unfamiliar environment, facing a new set of challenges and seeing where we stacked up against the best of the best divers in the U.S.- representing our coast, our FSDA council and our TBSC club to the best of our ability. What I have come to see about doing these tournaments and experiencing both spectrums of winning and losing is it really isn't even about the other divers or the glass but success becomes measured by how much you can overcome and improve yourself through training, discipline and commitment to learning our beloved sport. What you become as a spearfisherman is far more valuable than any piece of acryllic sitting on your shelf.

Competitive and ritual hunting has been present in almost every ancient hunting society as a rite of passage and a measure of "bravery" and I still feel it fulfils a certain rite of passage or initiation into "the tribe", albeit on a more personal level. I agree that competition spearing is not a fit or necessary for everyone but I personally learn more from getting my butt whipped at the "big boy tournaments" than I ever would have just learning the sport on my own.

I really want to thank Dennis, Glen and Mike McGuire, Dave Edlund, Brandi Easter and all of the team at CenCal for maintaining such a spirit of cameraderie, respect and sportsmanship at this event. Any negative experiences I have ever had at past events were really put into perspective when I see how positive this experience can be when run by a class group like CenCal concerned for the future of our sport and why I see value for perpetuating organized spearing for future generation of spearos.

Last edited by wvandeman; 08-08-2012 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 08-08-2012, 01:06 PM   #50
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Re: 2012 Nationals Results

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Originally Posted by Kelsea View Post
Rich,

Sadly, due to their rule change to no longer allow "sponsored divers", divers like myself, Kimi, Julie Riffe, Richard Balta... or anyone on Team Riffe for that matter, can't go to that particular tournament. Is that fair for divers like myself?

I am poor as hell due to school. I have no time and no team working for me. I am sad to hear that you welcome this rule change. For me, that rule change sucks.

My sponsorship includes gear whenever I need it. But I dont ask for much from Riffe. I am not paid by them. I work very hard for my sponsorship and it is by no means free...

I liked the Triton X tournament. I will miss having as much fun as I did the year I went up there and got that huge octopus.

I empathize with your views on what is fair for a tournament... however, a rule change of No Scuba scouting or something like that would been a better call.. But for the Freedive Shop, its their tournament, their rules.

Still, This thread is about the Nationals. I was hoping it would be a positive welcome for those guys and gals that did work very hard and honest in some nasty conditions. Lets try to keep it with that tone, please.

I really welcome you to attend the Pacific Coast Championships. Last year, there was NO scouting allowed. At all. And the location of the dive meet was not even announced until the morning of. That really leveled the playing field for a lot of novice divers to really have a great time. I think you'd really dig the style of that meet and the kind of challenge and fun that goes with it.

Dive safe and be well,

K
Just reading this and I agree. Stop the scuba scouting and make some serious restriction to scouting period. A short period of a day before or so. No GPS allowed.

Personally the dive conditions on Sat when the contest was held was crazy. It was too rough for me to dive with the swells being steep short and changing directions every half hour.

It was a fun ride in my kayak fishing H&L.

Very impressive the skill of the people diving that day, i watched a few and they came out alive.

Stop the "cheating" and more locals will compete with the sponsored divers welcome.
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:01 PM   #51
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Re: Thoughts about spearfishing competition

Hey, I just say what everyone else was thinking.
You guys would $hit if you saw all the PM's i got on this one...
Pretty sure everyone's sick of it, and would greatly appreciate more tournaments like Paul's "No Scout, No Doubt" format.

I still recommend that someone ball up and sponsor a "Gut it or Shut it" tournament along with the No Scout format sometime real soon.

I got 3rd place out of 82 divers at the Big Ab-Big Ling back in early June. Sea was ugly, and I weighed in 3 out of the 8 fish that came in that day.

As long as the playing field is level, if I can do it, ANYONE can. Believe me.
I wasn't even trying, I just got lucky. It also helped that most everyone was competing down in So Cal that weekend
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:37 PM   #52
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Re: Thoughts about spearfishing competition

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Hey, I just say what everyone else was thinking.
You guys would $hit if you saw all the PM's i got on this one...
Pretty sure everyone's sick of it, and would greatly appreciate more tournaments like Paul's "No Scout, No Doubt" format.

I still recommend that someone ball up and sponsor a "Gut it or Shut it" tournament along with the No Scout format sometime real soon.

I got 3rd place out of 82 divers at the Big Ab-Big Ling back in early June. Sea was ugly, and I weighed in 3 out of the 8 fish that came in that day.

As long as the playing field is level, if I can do it, ANYONE can. Believe me.
I wasn't even trying, I just got lucky. It also helped that most everyone was competing down in So Cal that weekend
100% agree!
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Old 08-08-2012, 07:02 PM   #53
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Re: Thoughts about spearfishing competition

World record ling cod gutted on camera
(well, she was mostly layed open before the camera was actually rolling)

I think it's pretty funny that he went to all the trouble to make a video of it...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151000207924702

Tournament was on 8/2, video was posted on 8/6.
Show of hands please.
How many of you guys and girls wait 4 days to gut & gill your dead fish?
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:52 PM   #54
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Re: Thoughts about spearfishing competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by wvandeman View Post
I think a pretty basic point is being missed in this argument which is the real issue with all freediving fatalities-comp and non comp. Competitive spearfishing does not kill freedivers. Diving without direct supervision does. A tournament format could make it harder to establish this protocol but I have also seen firsthand that team hunting can be a very successful way to hunt, and I wholeheartedly agree that is something we need to promote more in a competitive format.

As far as stealing "the soul of the sport" or being a "mine is bigger" contest I think that couldn't be further from the truth. I met several past and current champions last week who went out of their way to help us Florida boys, give us advice (not spots, of course), and pass on one of the greatest concentrations of spearfishing knowledge you can even imagine. I found champions like Dennis and Dan to show the highest degree of ethics and sportsmanship and come across as approachable humble guys who you realize just happen to put more effort into their training, scouting and skills than most of us are able (or more truthfully willing) to do. I was so impressed with past champions-legends like Bill Ernst, Terry Maas, the McGuires, Don Barthman and Dale Sanders-quietly working behind the scenes, doing the unpleasant and hard jobs to make the tournament run smooth, with not even a hint of ego or unapproachability.

Coming from Florida with a week of scout time and having done previous Nationals, we had no illusion of dominating or beating guys who had a higher commitment or investment of time but we had something to prove to ourselves- going to an unfamiliar environment, facing a new set of challenges and seeing where we stacked up against the best of the best divers in the U.S.- representing our coast, our FSDA council and our TBSC club to the best of our ability. What I have come to see about doing these tournaments and experiencing both spectrums of winning and losing is it really isn't even about the other divers or the glass but success becomes measured by how much you can overcome and improve yourself through training, discipline and commitment to learning our beloved sport. What you become as a spearfisherman is far more valuable than any piece of acryllic sitting on your shelf.

Competitive and ritual hunting has been present in almost every ancient hunting society as a rite of passage and a measure of "bravery" and I still feel it fulfils a certain rite of passage or initiation into "the tribe", albeit on a more personal level. I agree that competition spearing is not a fit or necessary for everyone but I personally learn more from getting my butt whipped at the "big boy tournaments" than I ever would have just learning the sport on my own.

I really want to thank Dennis, Glen and Mike McGuire, Dave Edlund, Brandi Easter and all of the team at CenCal for maintaining such a spirit of cameraderie, respect and sportsmanship at this event. Any negative experiences I have ever had at past events were really put into perspective when I see how positive this experience can be when run by a class group like CenCal concerned for the future of our sport and why I see value for perpetuating organized spearing for future generation of spearos.
Thanks for the kudos Bill,
It was great to have you guys there, and I hope that some of the naysayers read this. What you speak of is true, and what we do this for. Camraderie, challenge, sportsmanship, competition, and its always a test of myself, but more so when the conditions are like they were that day. Thanks again Bill.
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:11 PM   #55
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Re: Thoughts about spearfishing competition

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Originally Posted by thereefgeek View Post
.... and would greatly appreciate more tournaments like Paul's "No Scout, No Doubt" format.

I still recommend that someone ball up and sponsor a "Gut it or Shut it" tournament along with the No Scout format sometime real soon.
There are a number of tournaments world wide that use these formats. They are nothing new to anything that anyone has thought of or created out here.

The Gut it or shut it format is favored in Australia from what I understand.
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:38 PM   #56
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Re: Thoughts about spearfishing competition

Just out of curiosity, in a tournament setting, how would it hurt anyone to weigh a fish for the tournament result and then, once the fish has been weighed, then gutting the fish to see the contents? Yes, it would take more time to do, but it now seems necessary, based on the complaints that have arisen in regard to feeding the fish. The only people it would harm is those who cheat. If it is found that they cheated, then they should be disqualified. Possibly banned from the tournament series. Guidelines would have to be set in order to determine these perameters, but it seems necessary to prevent and deter dishonesty and/or cheating. It makes the tournament more of an even playing field. If you are checking everyone, it is not discriminatory, and does not single anyone person out. Scouting on scuba is a different matter. So, I ask again. Why would this be wrong?
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:56 PM   #57
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Re: Thoughts about spearfishing competition

I can post the video of the contents of Dan's ling if anyone's interested...
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Old 08-09-2012, 04:16 PM   #58
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Re: Thoughts about spearfishing competition

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Originally Posted by Diablo Loco View Post
Just out of curiosity, in a tournament setting, how would it hurt anyone to weigh a fish for the tournament result and then, once the fish has been weighed, then gutting the fish to see the contents? Yes, it would take more time to do, but it now seems necessary, based on the complaints that have arisen in regard to feeding the fish. The only people it would harm is those who cheat. If it is found that they cheated, then they should be disqualified. Possibly banned from the tournament series. Guidelines would have to be set in order to determine these perameters, but it seems necessary to prevent and deter dishonesty and/or cheating. It makes the tournament more of an even playing field. If you are checking everyone, it is not discriminatory, and does not single anyone person out. Scouting on scuba is a different matter. So, I ask again. Why would this be wrong?
SHHHH ling cod secret, is feeding fish with cripples to have them come around...but i never have to do that...nope i never miss so i never have cripples!!!!!

There is even a better way, one of the reasons why i dive alone is so that no one else knows. Yet 35lbs is impressive. i havent seen one that big diving in a long time, with only one or two a year on H&L for me and my buds.
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Old 08-09-2012, 05:34 PM   #59
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Re: Thoughts about spearfishing competition

We have gutting at most of the big Gulf tournaments. I have chaired a large person tournament with gutting. It is fine for the scuba or commercial guys because their fish stay fresher and traditionally works well in those type of tournaments but from experience but it is often bad for freedivers who lose any chance at a tournament fish being turned in for a record. From an operating standpoint it is also a big hassle dealing with gutting at the weigh table and in the weigh line because many competitors have different or very minimalist definitions of what is a cleanly gutted fish. You risk the ire of event hosts when they find a ton of smelly fish guts in their trash or in their parking lots. I am sure those state parks and nature types would also love you guys dumping fish guts and chum at their shoreline attracting predators. Dan's fish did not have a distended stomach compared to the other ling there and was pretty small given the full moon and feeding conditions. if Dan fed it he did a pretty terrible job.


As for scouting, how do you deal with a local guy who has fished and dove an area his whole life? Or the guy whose family or mentor has been fishing an area for three generations? Do you give him negative points for every time he has dove that spot? These guys who scout for weeks or months in advance aren't getting paid to do this. They have obligations and expenses like everyone else and getting free gear from a major sponsor doesn't go very far for the amount of time these guys invest.

Last edited by wvandeman; 08-09-2012 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 08-09-2012, 05:39 PM   #60
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Re: Thoughts about spearfishing competition

I think spearing comps is a slippery slop at best. I have shot in a few and at the weigh -in seeing a 1000lb tote full of dead cuda being tossed by everyone because they needed that fish for "points" rubbed be the wrong way.... I have no interest in doing them any more. I shoot for fun and time with friends and have shot plenty of nice fish and am comfortable with my skill level. No need to spend my money and time competing against others to prove something to myself or others.

Any way back to the this comp who ever lives in the area of the comp and can scout has a huge advantage in these types of Nationals. Look at last years comp in Keys it was all Miami guys that dive the Keys all year that won. Same with this year in Cali the locals won. Just to many variables to get a edge over the other divers being local.

Any way to each their own.
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