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Old 05-17-2018, 06:46 AM   #46
MAKO Spearguns
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Re: Small id bands dyneema knots popping out

Hey Marco, Good points..

I understand your concerns about the cord being cut, but SubSub is right. They have a chamfer to prevent cuts. It looks like his Euro inserts are the exact same design as mine.

Regarding the plastic vs. stainless steel, I understand your concern there as well as it relates to weight. I sell a lot of the plastic inserts that you are referring to. However, plastic inserts are actually much larger than these small stainless inserts. Because the plastic material is not as strong as steel, they have to be much larger and bulkier.

So, if you compare the weight of these small “stainless steel inserts for small ID tubing”, with the weight of the larger “plastic inserts for regular ID tubing”, there is little to no difference in weight.

This is probably why nobody is making plastic inserts for small ID tubing. I would not trust plastic material for such a small wishbone insert.

Here is a photo of my nylon wishbone inserts on 16mm. You can see how much larger they are, compared to the smaller stainless steel inserts for small ID tubing.



https://www.makospearguns.com/Nylon-...rts-p/mnwi.htm

Hey mishu1984,
I have yet to try these on a roller muzzle. I’m working on a new roller muzzle so I will run down to the beach tomorrow and give it a try.

Thanks,
dano

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Last edited by MAKO Spearguns; 05-17-2018 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 05-17-2018, 07:41 AM   #47
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Re: Small id bands dyneema knots popping out

I just came from a trip where I used these on a Pathos 82cm roller and they work very well.

About these inserts ... I really should not get any credit for designing them as all I did was buy every single insert I could find and just evolve the design where it took good things of each different insert. I did about 6 different metal versions and tested them with bands stretched at 140 feet to make sure no water would penetrate inside. At $250 tooling for each different design the cost really add up quickly. I think the final version is very close to as good as it is going to get. The bottom ball is 6.2 mm or 6.5mm (can't remember exactly) and the stem is 2.8mm but then about 1/3 of the way it expands to around 3.2mm ... this really helped in totally preventing any water from going in and also made it impossible for the ball to pop out ... while at the same time not allowing the constrictor knot to loosen. On the tie end the hole is big enough to allow 2.2 to 2.5mm spectra although I use the Benthic 1.9mm stiff spectra. Kavachi has the correct way to tie these as you just make one or two loops then thread through the hole. The chamfers are to prevent the line or at least reduce the chance of the line chaffing (I had a lot of problems with the initial versions cutting the line). I put some effort in trying as much as possible to also make sure these inserts did not damage the front end of carbon fiber guns (some of the heavier larger inserts do some damage). If you wrap once or twice and then loop the line through ... it gives a buffer to prevent the tiny ball from striking the front. I had wanted to make these in Titanium as it is half the weight ... but the cost would be about 4x more to make these. These are really easy to install and you should use a little silicone grease (like for scuba O rings) and just push them in. The grease will not dry and will work as a reverse O ring in preventing water entering. No tools are needed and in an emergency, if you use long enough kevlar line you can tie the knot with your gloved hand and cut the ends with a sharp knife. I have done this on a moving boat and inserts never came off. Of course it is much better to use some sort of mini pliers and kevlar scissors ... (I use cheap SS locking forceps rather than mini pliers).

At $2 a piece these are not much more than cost price ... so it is great that these can be provided at this price point.

With regards to plastic inserts ... as mentioned, they work great but they bulk up the bands and can prevent the bands from lying flat if they are side by side. There is some new high performance reinforced plastic that will allow the use of sizes similar to metal ... I might give that a try. I have some really nice plastic insert designs that I think would work really well. With plastic you can do one extra step that you can't do with metal ... you can cone shape the insert so that you would never even have to dress the band (if you like dressing the band). If you would do that with metal, you would tear up your muzzle very quickly.
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:02 PM   #48
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Re: Small id bands dyneema knots popping out

Thanks Dano!
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Old 05-20-2018, 04:05 PM   #49
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Re: Small id bands dyneema knots popping out

I do mine with the same knot, after I dip them in epoxy so they get a bit thicker and they also become waterproof, never had any issues.
Cheers
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Old 05-20-2018, 05:18 PM   #50
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Re: Small id bands dyneema knots popping out

Quote:
Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
The bottom ball is 6.2 mm or 6.5mm (can't remember exactly) and the stem is 2.8mm but then about 1/3 of the way it expands to around 3.2mm
On the 4pcs I got from Ermes the measures are as follows:
Bottom ball: 6,50mm
Stem closest to ball: 2,98->3,01mm
Stem closest to hole: 2,82-2,85mm

The cone shape is a bit less cone shape than on your figures, but I guess I just have to be generous on the silicone grease, and it'll be fine.
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Old 05-23-2018, 01:21 AM   #51
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Re: Small id bands dyneema knots popping out

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorini View Post
I do mine with the same knot, after I dip them in epoxy so they get a bit thicker and they also become waterproof, never had any issues.
Cheers
If you use cord inserts, it is a great idea to dip them in epoxy or plasti dip. This prevents the water siphoning in through the cord and into the band cavity ... plus it gives a better seal around the cord where the constrictor knot ties in. When I used cord I also squirted a bit of aquarium silicone inside the cavity. I found that it made inserting the wishbone easier and you had just enough time to push the insert in. When the silicone dries inside it stays flexible and does a great job in also helping prevent water penetration. This is also a good idea if using the Abellan metal inserts as they have a wire that goes around the wishbone ball that is notorious for allowing water inside your bands.

As for insert size, there could be some difference from the design drawings but these work for both small ID and large ID. I think if I would go for a design that works only for small ID bands, the bottom ball could go as small as 5.5mm. But then for sure you would get someone that might use it for large ID bands and might get a slip. The extra size in the ball does not bulk up the bands too much and I guess it is nice to know that you can use them also for regular ID bands if you can't find small ID bands.
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Old 06-01-2018, 04:15 PM   #52
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Re: Small id bands dyneema knots popping out

Hey mishu 1984,

Sorry for the delay in responding. I was traveling yesterday.
There are actually two knots that are recommended by SpearQ8.

• single loop
• double loop

In either case, before tying your knot, there are two important requirements.

#1: The bridle material must be stiff, like my South African Wishbone cordage.
I have tested wishbone cordage from many suppliers from around the world and the
South African cordage is the toughest cordage I have found.

#2: You must create a really good size “burn ball” at the end of your cord.
If you are unsure about the integrity of the burn ball, you can add a simple
half hitch knot at the end for added assurance that it will not pull through.


Below is a photo of the burn ball only.


Below is a photo of the burn ball plus a simple half hitch knot.



Single loop Knot:

Step 1:
Thread cordage through hole and create a burn ball at the end.




Step 2: Wrap the cordage around the shank one time and pass the end through the loop that you just created.



Step 3: Pull tight, ensuring the burn ball is well outside of the knot.



NOTE: For additional confidence, you can also tie a ½ hitch knot on the end after you create your burn ball.


Double loop:


Step 1:
Thread cordage through hole and create a burn ball at the end.



Step 2: Wrap the cordage around the shank two times and pass the end through the two loops that you just created.






Step 3: Pull tight, ensuring the burn ball is well outside of the knot.



Once again, I would like to thank SpearQ8 for sharing these awesome inserts with me.
We are all pretty darn lucky to have him around.

Dive safe,
dano
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Old 06-01-2018, 08:49 PM   #53
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Re: Small id bands dyneema knots popping out

The bands on one of my guns were getting beat up so I bought some of these inserts to try out and they were super easy to set up. You don't need any tool to insert these. Just wet the small ID tubing (or use silicone lube as Madj suggests) and push the band over the insert braced on the workbench. These inserts don't have a flat end on the tie end like the previous plastic ones I have used so a little balancing act is required as you push the band down over the insert. It is a lot better than the old days of using needle nose pliers with knots or an insert tool where you get blood blisters and pinched fingers if you slip.

I had some stiff wishbone material that barely fits through the eyes of the inserts. After you burn a ball the wishbone cordage will not pull back through the eye of the insert even without a knot.

Only downside is that if you have a closed muzzle and want to switch out bands on the boat you will have to cut the ball and burn a new one out on the water. not the end of the world. I always carry a spare band on the boat and have always changed at first sign of damage or wear. Great job Dano and Majd for providing a pretty cool insert.

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Last edited by SEA_ARCHER; 06-02-2018 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 06-02-2018, 08:52 PM   #54
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Re: Small id bands dyneema knots popping out

Those are 14.5 mm small ID bands tied at 400%. I got in the pool today and went through about 30 or so shots and I like the inserts a lot. No signs of slippage with just the single loop knot with no half hitch, just a burn ball on the end. Thanks again for a pretty cool little product guys.
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Old 06-04-2018, 06:13 PM   #55
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Re: Small id bands dyneema knots popping out

Hey Sea Archer,

Thanks for the review. And, nice job on your bands. The look great.

thanks

Dano
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Old 06-04-2018, 07:36 PM   #56
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Re: Small id bands dyneema knots popping out

I bought a bunch of these made by Cressi this year. I also had problems with cord wishbones and 14.5 bands. Single hitch burning end they don’t pull out. Finally....can get back to fishing and not relying bands.
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Old 07-25-2018, 03:28 AM   #57
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Re: Small id bands dyneema knots popping out

Majd, for those of us not in the US, where can we buy these inserts? thanks!
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Old 07-25-2018, 02:49 PM   #58
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Re: Small id bands dyneema knots popping out

Quote:
Originally Posted by kavachi View Post
Majd, for those of us not in the US, where can we buy these inserts? thanks!
I'm not Madj but Ermes Sub has these
http://www.ermes-sub.net/accessori-vari.html
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Old 07-25-2018, 05:54 PM   #59
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Re: Small id bands dyneema knots popping out

thanks mate!
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