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05-10-2016, 08:31 PM | #31 | ||
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!
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A speed test for example is great way. You have the mass of the shaft so you only need the figure out the speed of the shaft. Then you can use the sound from a simple GoPro video to calculate the kinetic energy of a shaft. K.E. = 1/2 m v2 Again these are facts... Whichever gun has the highest Kinetic energy at the same distance has better performance. Performance is not subjective. It is objective.
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05-10-2016, 09:45 PM | #32 |
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Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!
I understand that preload is in theory a good thing, because the shaft can be accelerated harder for the whole of the barrel length (the main benefit of a roller, other than reduced recoil), but how would say 380% stretch do with no preload, Vs 380% total with it preloaded on the nearest band slot underneath vs 380% total with heavy preload? This would require 3 different bands.
I'm wondering how much the preload is slamming the wishbone into the stops and vectoring the shaft and hurting penetration. A monopod could help test this. I don't have the downward shift that many talk about with my tiny roller, but it only uses maybe 20cm of preload on a 70cm low-handle pipe gun (68cm band stretch) with a 6.5mm 110cm shaft Your 82cm gun has 90cm of band stretch. A gun with 70 or 75cm of stretch might be different. An extra 20cm of stretch / shaft acceleration means more the shorter the gun gets. Also, your ergonomic grip is tailored to handle traditional recoil... Not the particular recoil slam that a heavily preloaded roller can experience. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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05-11-2016, 06:13 AM | #33 |
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!
I agree that most setups that come with guns are just absolutely terrible and you wonder if anyone ever tests at all ... my guess is few if any test their setups before they go out for sale. I have no problem with setups that are not up to the latest bleeding edge stuff that works ... but when you get a huge C4 120 gun that comes with a 6.5mm @ 160cm shaft and 2 x 18mm bands ... you really have to wonder who makes these decisions.
@Jon ... thanks for that link. I went through it and had to smile when I read that "nobody shoots at a range of more than 4 meters" ... I need to take that guy out to the Red Sea sometime and hunt Mu or Emperor fish or Red Snapper. Also tests at 4 meters doesn't tell you much ... and you need to look at accuracy and shaft drop as you change distance. If you are getting changes in shaft drop with such a big gun at 4 meters ... the drop is not due to gravity but rather to tail being pushed down on exit. I do think that different bearings on the rollers might help or hurt ... and just like anything else, quality materials used can only be beneficial. Although I have tried about 20 different roller guns by now, using various makes and different setups ... I still don't think I am an expert setting them up. I just don't think they are worth the effort as up till this day I have yet to see a roller setup perform better than a properly setup classic gun. The best roller setup in my test IMHO was the 16mm small ID results with no pre stretch. The shaft shot very flat and did not dive ... but problem was that it had no power. I think if I had a 20mm small ID band I might have gotten better results as I could get power and still have no pre-stretch ... but the rollers will not fit anything more than 16mm ... it is a setup worth testing. Again the issue of low shooting has to be addressed design wise with rollers. The shaft is being pushed by the wishbone and as the wishbone reaches the arrestor guides it will go up and flip the tail of the shaft up and front down. At least that is what I think is happening. Beuchat roller has a setup where they use a plastic ring to separate the top and bottom bands and this way pre-stretch has no affect on the exiting shaft ... this might be a solution. Another might be to just keep the front part of the track ET ... but this might be a band aid as the shaft would hit the top of the ET and lose velocity. There probably is a design fix for this and it has yet to be addressed. Until then I think roller guns are fun to tinker with but not the best choice for a hunting tool. Remember in this test I just used 2 x 14mm bands @ 360% ... I didn't try to optimize the classic setup ... the Sporasub shaft bands were at 320% and 345% respectively ... for sure it can be improved upon. Also the 7mm shaft is probably too heavy for the 13.7mm bands ... something @ around 14mm to 14.2mm would for sure improve results. The idea was to pick a standard classic setup and optimize the roller to match or improve upon that ... this was not possible no matter how hard I tried. As for the ergo handle, when I was having accuracy problems I decided to pull all the stops to try and get an accurate setup so I can eliminate the bladder as a cause of accuracy problems. I resorted to using something I know shoots accurately ... which was my custom handle with changed sears and a Sporasub shaft. It turns out that the handle change was not necessary and you will see that with the tests with the 7mm Sporasub test I just used the normal D'Angelo I handle. There just isn't much recoil on an 82cm gun so the handle will not affect things. On a 130 gun shooting an 8mm gun ... the handle is just an absolute necessity and shooting that gun without it is just not possible. One thing that was a huge disappointment with Pathos was that they did only a minor change on their SS trigger. Really ... I don't understand that. I think even with this 82cm setup the sears are going to be destroyed as the sears I measured at 4.9mm thickness. This is just asking for trouble and I just hope Mario makes a new batch of sears to fix that trigger. I guarantee that the new SS will have the same problems as the older SS trigger. |
05-11-2016, 06:21 AM | #34 |
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!
Maybe take into consideration that certain manufacturers are making spearguns for the mass market and sending out highly tuned up spearguns will probably not work well for 80% of people who use them...
There is a small % of people who love to find tune and max out spearguns and I think the duty of fine tuning lies on them. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
05-11-2016, 06:31 AM | #35 |
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!
I ran a Spearfishing shop for 7 years... Selling all sorts of brands... Most spearguns are made for the mass market and there's a lot of education that is missing when it comes to loading technique/band length/spear thickness that I'd say even more than 80% don't know and aren't that interested in... They just want something that works (easy to load and can shoot fish). Most customers will get to know their spearguns and without knowing it will compensate automatically if a speargun shoots low or high.
That's where these forums come in handy and helpful to try and understand modifications that can be made to a std speargun to take it to the next level (which might straighten the flight of the shaft but will all of a sudden become inaccurate because the speargun always shot low or high)... Hope I'm making sense here. Bottom line is that I don't think manufacturers should be blamed for not sending out "maxed" out setups as most people will complain about it being impossible to load or not managing the recoil... They should send out a std setup (which most do) and then it can be tuned up from there. Although I don't understand how some manufacturers send out such thin shafts... Another topic I guess Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
05-11-2016, 06:31 AM | #36 | |
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!
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I get that, makes sense. But if you look at the way most of these builders are sending out the guns, it usually isn't even close. For example, 18mm bands and a 6.75mm shaft, the setup from Aimrite on a super x 130. Very inaccurate, shaft whipped like crazy. Going to 16mm bands and a 7.2mm shaft fixed the problem and it was much better. You could argue sending a gun from factory with bands ties at 340% vs 370%, that makes sense so that it would be easy to load. But at least they should do the testing and know what their setups are capable of, and match the correct shaft diameter. |
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05-11-2016, 06:34 AM | #37 | |
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!
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Agree with you 100%! Just read the bottom part of my second post... Some std setups from manufacturers are just not great at all (main problem being really thin shafts that are unable to handle any more power) |
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05-11-2016, 07:04 AM | #38 | |
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!
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I do agree that manufactures do not test and set up guns correctly. |
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05-11-2016, 09:15 AM | #39 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Key West, FL
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!
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They have no idea how it will shoot. They wouldn't know the difference between avg. or maxed out performance because they have never tested the product. Not once. That is the frustrating part. And if they have, consumers should know which 100cm gun is good for shooting mullet and which would take a cubera. Most people would think they should be the same. If car companies did the same thing the masses would be furious (I'm talking about vehicles that are supposed to have performance characteristics, not minivans). The difference is, there are magazines and reviewers who test performance cars. And if the car does not perform well on a test track they get a big review that can be seen by everyone that says "this car with this motor and this suspension does not perform well. Compared to car X, which cost half as much, it was this much slower on the track." If people want to come defend that company and say "well I'm not going to be racing" that is just fine. But the fact is comparatively the product is inferior performance wise. There in lies the biggest problem, the unwritten rule of spearfishing, never talk bad about a speargun. This is why you are seeing all this testing and a few people coming out discussing the gun characteristics. We have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on guns that "shoot like a laser." It gets old and someone just took my money. I don't think every gun should come out of the box like a dragster. That's not the point of maxing out a product while testing either. The point is if manufacturers are going to make money off products than consumers have the right to test them and give them proper evaluations. I for one think that there exists is a lot of people who are constantly looking to buy a new $100+ muzzle to "upgrade" performance who will look at these comparisons and realize they would be better off adjusting the current gun. Or buying a $40 shaft that is more appropriate. Just like testing a 130cm roller gun at 4 meters is marketing, not testing. There is a big difference. People have a right to know. If Majd has to bang his head against the wall for what seems like years to try and get a roller muzzle to match a classic set-up, how is the average diver supposed to get it to work? One without a pool? Now we've said manufacturers should not be blamed for guns being sold that aren't maxed out. Ok, but should they be blamed for selling roller muzzle guns being marketed as more powerful, taking an extra $150 of peoples money, without any gain in performance (or sometimes less)? They can't have it both ways. It can't be said that bands cut at 380% are too hard to load for the avg. person then send out a roller that needs a load assist to perform properly. If the gun needs a load assist than I don't find it inappropriate to compare it to a gun with maxed out bands. Last edited by Castronova; 05-11-2016 at 09:38 AM. |
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05-11-2016, 09:44 AM | #40 |
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!
Side note, Harry, we never made anyone wear a dunce cap and sit in the corner when I teached vocabulary.
The elephant in the room. Majd is one guy. In Europe right now there are 100 guys doing pool tests with Rollers, Inverted, Pulleys systems of all sorts. They are achieving higher shaft speeds, shooting larger diameter shafts, great accuracy at distance, and Zero Recoil. Similarly, in the field, in Europe as well as around the world, they are showing great Performance and putting some fine Meat on the deck. I would estimate that half of the good divers or more in Europe have switched to Rollerguns. The question is Why would they do this if they are shooting low, missing fish, lacking power, and incurring poor performance? Reading this thread it seems like there is a Worldwide Marketing Scheme.. Who are these perpetrators? How sinister. Me. I don't currently make any Rollerguns. I have made a few in the past. I will try some this month too. But it might be worth mentioning that there is a bias here in this thread again... I'll just throw this out there. Peter Correale is the best and most experienced Spearfisherman I know. He is in a unique position to see and try all of the best guns on the market in the field. He's been testing out a Rollergun for the past 6 months in Mexico, Puerto Rico, and Panama. His review is that they certainly do not suck. I don't know Zip about the Pathos Rollerhead. But lumping all Rollers into the "They suck" file seems silly.
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05-11-2016, 10:18 AM | #41 |
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!
All rollerguns do not suck. Most do.
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05-11-2016, 10:45 AM | #42 |
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!
Jon, you are in the industry and know a lot of people. Get us some video. I'd love to see it.
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05-11-2016, 11:02 AM | #43 |
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!
I totally agre when everyone started making them ,90% of what I saw had major flaws ,and we're just copys of someone's flawed design . On all the first generation heads for one major brand the put the line wrap pin before the "ramp" so when you shot it the wishbone would hit the pin before the ramp , when the the figured this out after they had made a full production run and so the had to grind the pins off and retro a pin on the muzzle tip . Most people.making rollers don't understand how the work . They should never have muzzle ramps ( they cause the tail of the shaft to lift ) , they can only be loaded on the laser sharkfin , they should never use a notche'd shaft .
I don't think the are a end all solution , but they can be made well and if tone right are as fast to load as a normal 2 band gun but with less effort since the geometry if further from your body . And the lack of recoil let's people that are recoil sensitive shoot accurately |
05-11-2016, 11:34 AM | #44 |
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!
JPC, Geez quit askin me to do your searches. I'm busy in here. Look that shit up. Rollerguns. Facebook, Youtube, Google, ask into some of the Facebook groups. Learn I talian. Ofcourse most are not ideal? Are most Spearguns Ideal? The Majority of Spearguns sold are for the intro market. But saying that they all shoot low or there are not Rollers which can outperform Classic band guns is a little strange. I wish it were not so. Then I could be happy as a clam making 3-4 band classic guns. Me personally I have limited interest in Medium sized Rollers. I don't see them offering much advantage over a good 2 band classic gun. I do see the smaller end as being advantageous where viz is limited so small gunstocks are required. Also for particular hunting like up here where you can power up for Bass and power down for Tautog/Fluke on the same dive. My own interests are primarily in cracking the code of the Bluewater Roller. That is where I see potentially UUge benefit in eliminating Recoil and how that alone can effect design and speargun performance. If we can get a Roller shooting good groups at 25' with an 11/32" with good penetration, with improved sight picture, with Zilch recoil, with very fast shaft speed, which is not terribly complex to load, which you can also use at half power without bands flopping in your face, which weighs less, and did I say has Zilch Recoil and shoots Faster than a classic banded gun, will that be good?
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05-11-2016, 11:50 AM | #45 |
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Re: Pathos roller kit ... to roll or not to roll!
JP, I 100% agree with you that this "unwritten rule has to go, where you are evil if you negatively review a speargun it makes you a martyr. Although it is convenient for the gun builders, it is not right. I can't imagine scolding a patient of mine for writing a bad review about my clinic...that would be completely inappropriate. I may contact that person and see if I can get a better understanding about what I can do better to avoid this happening in the future...
Jon, there is bias everywhere. The amount of bias in Majd's tests are much less than what you would get from a sponsored diver or speargun company testing their own products and posting them to the internet. It is obvious to me that Majd takes extra measures to minimize bias by keeping his camera rolling shot to shot, to show that he is not simply hand picking which shots to include in his review. You can be sure that Alemanni pool testing his own guns is very biased. Bias is what also makes people believe that a fancy roller head makes their gun perform better. They buy it, get excited about it, use it, and even though the performance is not better, they believe it is...because they want to...they are biased. Jon, Majd's videos (and others) have helped all the builders who view them and read these threads tweak and change their guns...but it seems you guys are angry for some reason. I saw in another thread you sent a customer a 70"ish gun with 3x14.5 bands and an 11/32" shaft...he posted a very positive review and pictures. You would not have done that without these videos and reviews. I know this is true because you were one of the people who doubted that 3 bands would push an 11/32" shaft fast enough to be effective in the real world. I am not bashing you, just pointing it out. I have respect for you, Phil, and everyone else who I have learned from on this board. Harry is right, almost all roller guns sold on the market today suck...and because companies rely on consumers to do the product testing and refuse to do it themselves it is up to us to figure out which ones are good and which suck. |
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