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Technical Spearfishing Technical Scuba diving is generally defined as going deeper than 130 feet. You must have the proper training for this extreme aspect of spearfishing.

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Old 09-13-2009, 10:57 AM   #1
Sweet Tooth
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What is involved in diving deeper?

I am interested in doing some deeper dives and am beginning the process of finding out exactly what is involved.
I've been diving since 2000 off the FL Panhandle, but my deepest dive has been ~120fsw. I mostly dive Nitrox and have a Suunto Mosquito computer, Al 80s and a 9 cu ft pony bottle. There are some wrecks I'd like to dive from 150' all the way down to 300' and have my own boat, a Tiara 3600.
What am I looking at as far as education/certification and equipment such as larger tanks or a better computer?
I'd also like to know how the dives are actually handled with respect to anchoring vs marker buoy, how to handle the boat if you're drifting during deco etc. I'll probably want to start the actual deeper diving next spring, but want to start the education and evaluation process now.
Thanks in advance.
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Old 09-13-2009, 02:37 PM   #2
Teh Wicked
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Re: What is involved in diving deeper?

Say good bye to those Aluminum 80 tanks, I wouldnt dive those in deep water if you paid me. Some guys use them for different reasons while deep diving but hardly ever do you see people using them as a back gas.

You need to find a technical instructor in your area and speak with them. It would be a huge benefit to find one that in into spearfishing as well. This way he can instruct youa little more about what your getting into. Also be prepared to start digging into your wallet, I just done a entry level helium course so i can dive to 150' and the class alone was $350 and I still need to do checkout dives.
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Old 09-13-2009, 02:54 PM   #3
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Re: What is involved in diving deeper?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Tooth View Post
I am interested in doing some deeper dives and am beginning the process of finding out exactly what is involved.
I've been diving since 2000 off the FL Panhandle, but my deepest dive has been ~120fsw. I mostly dive Nitrox and have a Suunto Mosquito computer, Al 80s and a 9 cu ft pony bottle. There are some wrecks I'd like to dive from 150' all the way down to 300' and have my own boat, a Tiara 3600.
What am I looking at as far as education/certification and equipment such as larger tanks or a better computer?
I'd also like to know how the dives are actually handled with respect to anchoring vs marker buoy, how to handle the boat if you're drifting during deco etc. I'll probably want to start the actual deeper diving next spring, but want to start the education and evaluation process now.
Thanks in advance.
http://www.thedecostop.com/

http://www.thetechdiver.com/

It's a start.
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Old 09-14-2009, 08:27 AM   #4
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Re: What is involved in diving deeper?

Thanks for the replies. I want to be clear up front that I'm not looking to substitute a couple of posts on the web for qualified instruction, just trying to get an idea of what the cost/benefits would be and if this is something I really want to pursue.
Would a single 120 and a larger pony be suitable tank wise? At what depth should I really start to consider doubles?
How are dives at these depths done, i.e do you typically anchor the boat or dive down the line of a marker buoy? I can see advantages and disadvantages to each method. FWIW we prefer to "bounce dive" our current depths so the boat is free to pick up a diver anywhere. Obviously I'm gonna need a buddy or two to do this with and want to make sure they'll be good with going the extra mile as well.

Thanks again
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Old 09-14-2009, 12:03 PM   #5
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Re: What is involved in diving deeper?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Tooth View Post
Thanks for the replies. I want to be clear up front that I'm not looking to substitute a couple of posts on the web for qualified instruction, just trying to get an idea of what the cost/benefits would be and if this is something I really want to pursue.
Would a single 120 and a larger pony be suitable tank wise? At what depth should I really start to consider doubles?
How are dives at these depths done, i.e do you typically anchor the boat or dive down the line of a marker buoy? I can see advantages and disadvantages to each method. FWIW we prefer to "bounce dive" our current depths so the boat is free to pick up a diver anywhere. Obviously I'm gonna need a buddy or two to do this with and want to make sure they'll be good with going the extra mile as well.

Thanks again
There is no simple answer, when diving deeper and accumulating a decompression requirement, you enter an "overhead" environment, meaning that you can not safely ascend directly to the surface. The gear you take is dependant on the "mission" of the dive and whether you choose to dive with a buddy or solo. How you conduct that “mission” is also dependant on many factors, there is no “right” answer. Although this and the other diving web sites are replete with how “not to do it”. When you ask questions like yours you will get answers from divers that routinely dive below 200 on air with a single 80 to divers that will not venture to those depths without doubles with trimix and 2 deco gases.

So before you run out and buy new gear contact a few tech instructors and speak with them, find one that you are comfortable with and seems to be well respected throughout the technical diving community (that is the key point).

On the other hand if you just want to learn via the "school of hard knocks", expect to buy lots of gear that a few years from now you will realize is useless. Most new tech divers feel the need to clip to themselves just about everything they can find to buy at the LDS assuming that with a good credit card you can then violate the laws of physics. You just may end up killing yourself. Good luck

John
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Old 09-14-2009, 01:41 PM   #6
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Re: What is involved in diving deeper?

I was hoping for something along the lines of:
Up to depth X you can use air or Nitrox (% dependent on MOD of course)
From X to Y you can use air but plan on deco stops
Beyond Z you should really look at trimix

It sounds though, like with so many things; It's just not that simple. With degrees in mechanical and bioengineering I fully respect the ability of the laws of physics to bitch slap one back into reality and I have no desire to spend a semester of the hard knocks school at that kind of depth.
It sounds like my next step is to find a good instructor. Does anyone have any recommendations (or possibly more importantly anti recommendations) for an instructor in the FL Panhandle?

Thanks again for the advice, particularly pointing out that this is an "overhead" environment; good way for me to think about it I believe.
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Old 09-14-2009, 02:06 PM   #7
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Re: What is involved in diving deeper?

Actually it IS that simple.
OTOH diving nitrox or air with planned deco isn't necessarily that simple if you extend your bottom times to need more than one (memorized) stop and keep your Oxtox limits well under control.

Diving Trimix or other custom breathe gas is as simple as breating in and out, and in depths over about 150 the wisest choice if you have a bottom and a square well planned profile. Hunting kind of screws that well planned profile thing, so find a good instructor who will teach you what you need to know to stay alive, not just what the agency is preaching that week.

One I've talked to on thedecostop.com in your area is runawaylobster. PM her there for more info but she seems more than competent and may do private lessons..

Edit.
Sorry, my bad. She's actually out of Miami, on the other side of cave country.
http://runawaylobster.com/
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Last edited by FredT; 09-14-2009 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:09 AM   #8
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Re: What is involved in diving deeper?

call this man, one of the best out there as far as expirience and knowledge of diving deeper and a great guy.


Pompano Beach, Florida Tech Instructor Jim Mims is the President and Chief Technical Instructor at Ocean Diving Inc. He is an accomplished boat captain and also serves on the Board of Advisors for IANTD. Captain Jim has been teaching diving since 1977 and founded Ocean Diving Inc. in 1979. Ocean Diving Inc. offers IANTD and DAN Instructor Certification courses as well as IANTD Recreational, Technical and Rebreather Diver Certification courses. Contact Jim Mims at his phone number 954-849-DEEP or his e-mail DiveTek@OceanDiving.com
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Old 09-15-2009, 03:56 PM   #9
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Re: What is involved in diving deeper?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Tooth View Post
I was hoping for something along the lines of:
Up to depth X you can use air or Nitrox (% dependent on MOD of course)
From X to Y you can use air but plan on deco stops
Beyond Z you should really look at trimix...
When you can answer those questions instead of asking them you shall be ready to walk the rice paper grasshopper.

Proper training and experience. No other way.
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:18 AM   #10
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Re: What is involved in diving deeper?

That's why I'm asking the questions, so eventually I'll be able to answer them.

Any thoughts on Jeff Loflin as an instructor for what I'm wanting to do?

Thanks
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Old 09-16-2009, 02:21 PM   #11
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Re: What is involved in diving deeper?

I strongly wouldn't recommend shooting fish on Trimix. While diving trimix your ascent rates change, deco obligations increase, and you need to carry much more equipment. Also with trimix you don't run off what your computer says you have to plan the dive then execute your plan. If you over stay 2 or 3 minutes on the bottom it completely changes your Deco times.

I've taken 25% to 150-160 plenty of times and I know personally that's where I start to feel a little narced.

Diving in doubles is enough of a task by itself. I personally wouldn't recommend doubles and spearfishing.
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Old 09-17-2009, 07:11 AM   #12
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Re: What is involved in diving deeper?

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Originally Posted by Pierce07 View Post
.... deco obligations increase,
Incorrect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierce07 View Post
...and you need to carry much more equipment. .
Incorrect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierce07 View Post
.. If you over stay 2 or 3 minutes on the bottom it completely changes your Deco times. .

Incorrect


Quote:
....Jeff Loflin....
I would suggest going over on The Deco Stop to ask about tech instructors. You will get a lot more feedback.

John
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Old 09-17-2009, 08:40 AM   #13
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Re: What is involved in diving deeper?

The primary thrust of modern tech diving is to go down and look &/or take pictures, not go down and do things. There are several issues with CO2 buildup that make working very hard very deep for an extended time period problematic. Not impossible with proper planning, but problematic without it.

I agree that The Deco Stop is a good source, but whoever you talk to make sure the instructor understands exactly why you want to learn about the tools before you start training with them. The current crop of tech instructors is heavily biased towards cave and wreck penetration diving, not spearfishing.
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Old 09-17-2009, 07:40 PM   #14
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Re: What is involved in diving deeper?

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Originally Posted by jadairiii View Post
Incorrect

Incorrect

Incorrect

I would suggest going over on The Deco Stop to ask about tech instructors. You will get a lot more feedback.

John
Well you should really look into your deco planner then. A diver to 215 feet with a run time of 20 minutes with a 18% 02 mix runs 70 minutes. If you over stay 3 minutes of bottom time you are looking at a 83 minute dive both with a 70% mix for deco. I don't know many people that blow off 10 minutes of deco.

20 Min Dive:

215- 20
First stop- 110 for 1 Min
100- 1 min
90- 1 min
80- 1 min
70-3 min
60- 3 min
50- 6 min
40- 4 min (switch to 70%)
30- 4 min
20- 9min
10- 14min

215-23 minutes
100- 1
90-2
80- 2
70- 3
60- 5
50- 6
40- 4 (switch to 70%)
30- 7
20- 10
10- 16

If you are going to be diving deep then you will most likely have to carry a stage bottle which is more gear. Unless you're going to hang it which is taught in no tech class. Also if you are going to dive trimix correctly you will either have to buy 2 computers or run tables and have 2 bottoms times. Not including the doubles or H-valve.

Yes going to Deco Stop will provide you with help. I'm also a member over there. www.tdisdi.com offers a instructor search for people in your area.

And to take the class I don't know of any instructor the will do your advanced Nitrox/ Deco Procedures w/o doubles, lift bag, deco bottle, two bottoms timers, back up lights.
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Old 09-18-2009, 08:46 AM   #15
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Re: What is involved in diving deeper?

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Well you should really look into your deco planner then. A diver to 215 feet with a run time of 20 minutes with a 18% 02 mix runs 70 minutes. If you over stay 3 minutes of bottom time you are looking at a 83 minute dive both with a 70% mix for deco. I don't know many people that blow off 10 minutes of deco..
Whether you’re using Decom, DecoPlanner, V-Planner or Naui’s RGBM/GAP (or any other, I have most of them, they are fun to play with), all of the deco programs are entirely or partially based on Bühlmann. I can (and have) run Decom tables that look identical to DecoPlanner, RGBM or V-Planner.

And here is the problem with them all; they penalize you on shallow stops for using Helium because Bühlmann tables were designed for air. They hang you shallow to make up for any issues deep.

Point of all this, Tables are nice to look at but they only do an average job at modeling decompression schedules. They should be used as guides not gospel.

There are instructors out there that understand this, find them. As FredT stated make sure the instructor knows what you want to use this knowledge for, but ultimately, regardless of how you dive, the physics does not change.

John
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