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All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

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Old 02-21-2017, 01:27 PM   #16
Behslayer
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

Maybe it's a pool thing. 6.75mm seems like kind of a weenus size, especially paired with 2 x 16mm bands. But who knows, maybe in the field that is what their test team felt was the best match? For sure a company like Pathos has testing team and pool and field testing going on for each gun. My point is that there is sometimes a difference between pool driven and field driven test results. I can sit in the pool and shoot 11/32" Shafts with 3 bands on a 155RH and think the recoil is completely manageable, and focus on the aim and recoil management and think I'm killing it shooting in the pool.. But put that same set up in the hands of three independent Field testers and all three of them say independently that the 11/32" is too heavy and feels strange when diving and all 3 choose to shoot a 5/16" for actual hunting. Just proposing that pool testing is not the end goal.. the end goal is catching fish. In our own testing we found there to be a difference in Pool Ideals and Field Ideals. Maybe that is what is going on here? Maybe the issue is the Bands.. 2 x 16mm can pack a lot of punch. Seems like the first thing to try would be smaller bands. The shaft fits the track on the gun as is. the bands are not matched to the shaft.
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Old 02-21-2017, 05:27 PM   #17
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

I agree the Pathos D'Angelo 1 is easily the best deal for a speargun today. No need to change the trigger and just a quick change of the bands and shaft and you are good to go. For high loads, a handle mod really allows you to push the limits of the longer guns.

As for me being the cause of ET ????? Now that is funny! I do admit that when I first came on spearboard I was influenced by the many "experienced" members that an ET was the only way to get a shaft going super fast without losing control and accuracy ... (maybe it was you Phil ??). I agree that this influenced me into getting many ET guns as well as getting many roller guns ... and multi banded heavy guns ... etc... etc... This was before I started testing stuff for myself. I will be polite and just say a lot of what I was told was absolute nonsense.

Anyway, I put up the second part of the video on the first post of the thread.
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Old 02-21-2017, 05:42 PM   #18
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

Ron,

Not buying a Pathos because of Majd's results was a big mistake. You can pm him to explain to you why.

He chose to use these guns and upgrade for a few reasons one of them being it is one of a very few brands that can be pushed to higher levels.

So unlike what we think here Pathos designs these guns for europe and european diving still demands thin shafts for speed. They still use 6.25mm and 6.5mm in their majority.

I persuaded Pathos to increase the thickness to a 7mm for the USA. Also the enclosed track was designed in that specific way mainly so that people can remove easily if they chose to or also open for thicker shafts. Shops will eventually be supplied with the tool to do so.

Also the two holes do serve a purpose since once you actuaslly load the bands the correct way, furthest hole first then you will see the rubber disappearing in the pipe (part of the design) and not crossing.

A lot of thought was put into these guns before they were launched (Presented here in the USA in 2012 and launched end of 2016) and they had to satisfy the majority of customers who are in Europe and not in the USA.

Eventually things will be the way they were supposed to for the USA since our market has been growing.
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Old 02-21-2017, 05:43 PM   #19
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

Nice Transformation.
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Old 02-21-2017, 05:46 PM   #20
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

One more thing I forgot. For the people that have the gun you will notice that the enclosed track is not a typical enclosed track. Grooves in the track allow for intrusion of water to actually allow the spear to hydroplane. Still open track will always be my personal prefference but for sure this enclosed track will outperform traditional enclosed track. This is one test I know Pathos did before they finalize the design.
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Old 02-21-2017, 06:08 PM   #21
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

That video is a good proof of concept for your handle mod.

To Petros's point. I can understand the need for a very fast shaft speed in certain hunting situations. I would like to calculate the shaft speed of the 6.75mm shaft and see exactly what the different is say from a 7.5-8mm shaft, at 4m, 5m, 6m, etc. There is a point where the shaft speed of the two cross (where the 6.75 slows down faster than the heavier 7.5-8). Also, I would assume that in those same hunting situations (small, quick moving fish) even a couple inches of lost accuracy could be a big deal.

Majd, I REALLY like these types of tests where you swap out certain aspects of the gun design, band/shaft setup. By documenting on video you can see exactly how each element affects performance.

I have never heard of anyone saying that they feel more recoil while in an actual hunting situation than when doing pool testing. I hardly ever notice recoil in a hunting situation, most likely due to adrenaline and the momentum of my body moving in the forward direction when shooting.
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Old 02-21-2017, 06:31 PM   #22
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

Quote:
Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
I agree the Pathos D'Angelo 1 is easily the best deal for a speargun today. No need to change the trigger and just a quick change of the bands and shaft and you are good to go. For high loads, a handle mod really allows you to push the limits of the longer guns.

As for me being the cause of ET ????? Now that is funny! I do admit that when I first came on spearboard I was influenced by the many "experienced" members that an ET was the only way to get a shaft going super fast without losing control and accuracy ... (maybe it was you Phil ??). I agree that this influenced me into getting many ET guns as well as getting many roller guns ... and multi banded heavy guns ... etc... etc... This was before I started testing stuff for myself. I will be polite and just say a lot of what I was told was absolute nonsense.

Anyway, I put up the second part of the video on the first post of the thread.
I never said you were the cause of et ,you aren't close to old enuff for that , just that you helped the myth along , as far as me using it as a cruch to get a gun to work ,no, I have allways go the heavy mass stable route ,since that's what works best for the type of hunting I do . I don't need a ultra light gun that I can take to 100' all day becuse I don't do that . In ca very few peple dive past 40 or 50 and 20' is really good vis . Completely different than if I was diving the keys,oz, or the red Sea

Here's one of your old threads , type in your name and et enclosed track and 4 pages of results come up

http://www.spearboard.com/showthread...enclosed+track
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Old 02-21-2017, 10:14 PM   #23
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

I don't know how I can say this without sounding dirty but.....That is some impressive penetration. Impressive how the shaft flight became more stable with the heavier shafts. Thanks again Majd for teaching many of us how we can tweak our guns to get the most out of them. All we need now is an underwater chronograph to be able to easily compare the respective velocities. Any easy way to do that? I know some will measure the video and get an average velocity but it is nice with archery and firearms to be able to shoot through the chrono and get muzzle and downrange velocities.
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Old 02-21-2017, 11:09 PM   #24
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

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Originally Posted by SEA_ARCHER View Post
I don't know how I can say this without sounding dirty but.....That is some impressive penetration. Impressive how the shaft flight became more stable with the heavier shafts. Thanks again Majd for teaching many of us how we can tweak our guns to get the most out of them. All we need now is an underwater chronograph to be able to easily compare the respective velocities. Any easy way to do that? I know some will measure the video and get an average velocity but it is nice with archery and firearms to be able to shoot through the chrono and get muzzle and downrange velocities.
In reg. to chronograph, I do remember reading on some board (perhaps this one) about someone setting out to make one for pool use, but I think the project stranded, though.
You could possibly get more than an average speed from video though. You could shoot along side a wall with distance markers on it and thus get the speed, say, along the 1st meter from the muzzle and then the same down range. (I know they would still be averages, but over much shorter distances, at least). The Sony RX100IV will shoot 500fps in a usable resolution. It can shoot 1000fps in an even lower res, too. Only for a few secs at a time, though so you would need a helper to hit the record button at the right time. Maybe 500/1000fps would be high enough to check speeds at different distances like this.
Newest GoPros and Yi can shoot 240fps in 720p continuously, if I recall correctly.
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Old 02-22-2017, 01:02 AM   #25
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

Great transformation as usual
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Old 02-22-2017, 02:02 AM   #26
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil herranen View Post
I never said you were the cause of et ,you aren't close to old enuff for that , just that you helped the myth along , as far as me using it as a cruch to get a gun to work ,no, I have allways go the heavy mass stable route ,since that's what works best for the type of hunting I do . I don't need a ultra light gun that I can take to 100' all day becuse I don't do that . In ca very few peple dive past 40 or 50 and 20' is really good vis . Completely different than if I was diving the keys,oz, or the red Sea

Here's one of your old threads , type in your name and et enclosed track and 4 pages of results come up

http://www.spearboard.com/showthread...enclosed+track
Phil, your responses just seem petty now. I used to really enjoy reading your posts. Let's not turn this into one of those threads. Majd has changed the way a lot of spearos think about heavy setups. You may disagree but the proof is in the pudding. The thread you pulled up was 6-7 years old. Send him one of your optimized guns and let's see how it performs in the same pool, with the same shooter aiming at the same target
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Old 02-22-2017, 02:22 AM   #27
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

Looking at those old threads is funny ... I mean 3 x 16mm bands on Riffe 120X shooting a 7mm shaft !!! Oh My Lord !!! Maybe not as funny as me posting that the new Omer roller speargun with a single 14mm band had about the same power as the same Omer gun with 3 x 16mm bands (got the information from Omer themselves) !!! These are old posts and I am sure that about 3 or 4 years ago a lot of this information changed after I tested this and saw that a lot of these claims were totally untrue. Even up to the time I tested the Seal Double Roller ... I was convinced that this was the way to massive improvement in performance with a speargun. I guess I am just as gullible as anyone else when reliable people tell you that the gun was so powerful it was "pulling out chunks of the back end of the pool". I don't think anyone was saying stuff they didn't believe ... it is just that it is impossible to tell performance by just observing with the naked eye how a gun shoots. I have a lot of experience testing spearguns, and I would still have no way testing power or accuracy by just shooting a gun without a protocol. Huge recoil can make the gun feel very powerful ... but that is very misleading as shaft velocity might be terrible. That is why you absolutely need a protocol that can test performance ... I use the Penetration Test to test power and alongside it I use accuracy test to make sure things are still under control ... I think it really allowed me to understand what is going. This type of testing is what allowed me to understand that power did not come from thick and powerful bands ... but rather that power comes by making efficient use of thin bands ... and most important of all ... that power actually comes from keeping a shaft stable on exit.

If you look at the video I posted here ... can you tell any difference between the recoil of a 7mm shaft and an 8mm shaft? I certainly could not feel much difference when shooting. That is what modding the handle does !!! As I mentioned before it is a Game Changer and by far the easiest way to performance and control of a speargun. It has nothing to do with how you hold the gun or whether it is in the ocean or pool ... it is just the proper way to design a speargun handle because it controls and stabilizes a shaft on exit ... believe it not because I say so ... but because physics says so!

Now for the loading sequence of loading the last band first and pulling the second band inside so the bands sit together better. I think it was Ihab who first asked me to load the gun that way when testing some of his guns about 5 years ago. I didn't like that method then and I don't like it today. The idea of pulling a band through a loaded band just does not appeal to me. If the loaded wishbone slips ... and it will happen if you shoot enough shots ... the band will shoot under the band you are loading ... I just am not comfortable with that. I also am not sure it helps with the band seating at all as with 16mm bands they still go over each other. Also not sure if the bands will release the energy the same as the bands will have to cross over by the time they reach the muzzle. So I really don't think you can call the way I load the bands wrong, if I wanted to clean up the sight picture I can easily put in a metal wishbone on the last band ... if that slips it is no problem as my fingers are behind the wishbone. I can also just make the first wishbone a little longer ... you lose some band stretch but the bands will sit nice ... or just force the bands side by side. If you like loading through the first band then great, but I certainly don't find a need to change as I get very good results with the conventional way of loading.
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Old 02-22-2017, 10:11 AM   #28
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

It's always fun to see what you've learned in 7 years. Sometimes I get to refurbish an older build and it's cool to see what jumps out at me now that I would change. A few years ago the #realgamechanger came into play and that was the small ID Band. If I take an old gun from 7 years ago, and I swap out the bands for small ID, it's a big change. The bands have less volume, and also are used at higher stretch. We can achieve the same power output with 3 14mm small ID bands at 28" (370%) as we could previously with 4 16mm regular ID Bands at 34" (320%). That's a Uge difference in band volume and it has implications for all the elements of gun design from shaft diameter to gun volume. Try shooting that Abellan with 4 regular ID 5/8" Bands even with superhandle and you will see a big difference in how the gun performs. To get the same power we can squeeze out with 3 x 14.5mm at 370-380% you would need to use 4 x 5/8" at 330%.. BIG Difference in Recoil you need to manage. For sure you would be downgrading from 11/32" to 5/16" shaft to try to reduce recoil. Then because you dropped shaft diameter you might think to use an ET.. With new Band Technology we can solve this in another way. We reduce recoil by dropping one band and this allows a larger diameter shaft and we don't need to use an ET.

If you are always chasing the best... the bad news is it changes constantly.. and it's not the same for everyone. But not everyone is caught up in claiming the best. It might seem crazy to some but there are plenty of divers who think that their 8lb 150cm Mid Handle is a great gun for the job. Probably not a Star in Pool shooting even with the most optimized set up.. but freezers are full.

Here's a pic from 8 years ago. 155RH with ET with 3 9/16" Regular ID bands at 320%. Paired with stiff Carbon Steel 7.5mm Shaft, I always thought that gun shot nicely.
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Old 02-22-2017, 12:26 PM   #29
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

Does anyone still sell carbon pathos with the d 1 handles in the usa?
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Old 02-23-2017, 05:50 AM   #30
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

I don't know what to say ... I think you have been watching the Albacore 130 video too much! The target I use is nothing like the target you use. My target is pretty small and I can assure you that the performance of the Sniper in this test was very good. Shaft drop is generally caused by gravity and shooting line drag ... the heavier the shaft the more it drops. However if you manage to get the shaft to its Terminal Velocity then things can change. The heavier shaft will have a lot of velocity and mass and thus be less affected by gravity and shooting line. BUT ... and that is a big BUT ... a flopper can dramatically affect trajectory of a shaft. In the case of the Salvimar shaft I tried the original flopper ... and even with a cone it shot about 1 foot above aim point at 6 meters. The flopper was not sitting on the shaft and the cone was not wide enough to streamline flow over the flopper. So the flopper would get water under it and open during shaft flight ... and would vector shaft above target. The flopper I tested with was a flopper designed for a 7.2mm shaft ... but I managed to hack it where it would shoot OK. I think the flopper was still vectoring the shaft up ... which would compensate slightly against gravity ... but it was controlled and I decided to use it. I just felt I had to put in a 7.5mm test in there as that was where the gun felt perfectly ballasted.

Do you know that my target ... from aim point to middle of the black square is only 3 inches? Do you know what 3 inches is? That is not a lot of shaft drop unless you compare it to the Albacore 3 banded results with heavy shafts. In hunting conditions the shaft drop is 1/2 to 1/3 of what you see in the pool. I am not sure why, but maybe the line gets lighter in saltwater ... and usually you are shooting down at fish and thus less gravity ... but when I go spearfishing, I certainly do not take the shaft drop I get in the pool as a correction factor to my aim. The distance of a clenched fist without glove ... from the top of your thumb to the bottom of your pinkie is about 5 inches. Here is a picture of the target I was using with a glove and small orange as reference. Now if that still doesn't impress you I really don't know what will ... but the Albacore is just a different type of gun with different capabilities. The results of the 8mm shaft could probably be improved upon and I can probably get the gun to shoot a little flatter if I pushed the bands to 380% ... but I wanted one set of bands to work with all three shafts. I really didn't feel like cutting three separate sets of bands just to get that extra ounce of performance with each shaft.

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