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Old 08-06-2018, 11:45 AM   #1
Hpwatson
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Planning New Bluewater Roller Build - 1 or 2 bands?

Hey everybody, I've had a nice 110cm blank hanging for a few months and I've been eying it as an entry-level blue water gun for a while now. I'm all set on my midrange guns for snapper, cobia, smaller size amberjack etc... and I'd like to build something that I can take on some bluewater trips. I don't necessarily need a giant killer for hunting marlin and 400lb tuna, but I'd like to be able to hunt wahoo and more average sized tuna/other pelagics.

My question is, can a single banded roller gun (110cm) really get the job done? I know there's a lot of love out there for rollers and I'd rather build the single just because of the sleekness and simplicity but it just doesn't seem like enough...

The next question is, how much extra power do you get with a second roller band? Will it give me what I need for entry level bluewater hunting?

Looking forward to your thoughts,
-Henri
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Old 08-06-2018, 11:48 AM   #2
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Re: Planning New Bluewater Roller Build - 1 or 2 bands?

(3rd question) - What if I did a single roller band and added a powerband wishbone slot at the muzzle for a removable powerband?
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Old 08-06-2018, 12:21 PM   #3
Nix
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Re: Planning New Bluewater Roller Build - 1 or 2 bands?

The blank's overall length is 110cm or the expected pull length?
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Old 08-06-2018, 12:29 PM   #4
Hpwatson
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Re: Planning New Bluewater Roller Build - 1 or 2 bands?

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The blank's overall length is 110cm or the expected pull length?
Expected pull length. I have routed the trigger pocket but not the roller slots so the way I have it laid out right now is about 111cm, I might be able to stretch a tiny bit more out of it and get closer to 115.
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Old 08-06-2018, 05:15 PM   #5
Nix
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Re: Planning New Bluewater Roller Build - 1 or 2 bands?

It does sound a bit short for a true bluewater gun but if I wanted something in that size range for Blue water I'd want it to be inverted roller with a booster band and an 8mm or 8.5mm shaft.

I'm just not convinced the regular rollers will give you the performance you're looking for.
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Old 08-06-2018, 10:16 PM   #6
Hpwatson
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Re: Planning New Bluewater Roller Build - 1 or 2 bands?

Thanks for the feedback, so do inverted rollers really have that much more power than standard rollers?
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Old 08-06-2018, 11:19 PM   #7
Diving Gecko
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Re: Planning New Bluewater Roller Build - 1 or 2 bands?

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Thanks for the feedback, so do inverted rollers really have that much more power than standard rollers?
Hate to say it, but if you are to trust Majd's testing, which I personally do, it seems a well designed two-banded classic gun (very high ergo handle, no ET, no band friction, good trigger) running small ID bands would even be worth looking into over a single roller.

But actually I've never built a gun from scratch so I find it cool when people build whatever they want. Good luck with it:-)
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Old 08-07-2018, 08:54 AM   #8
Hpwatson
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Re: Planning New Bluewater Roller Build - 1 or 2 bands?

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Hate to say it, but if you are to trust Majd's testing, which I personally do, it seems a well designed two-banded classic gun (very high ergo handle, no ET, no band friction, good trigger) running small ID bands would even be worth looking into over a single roller.

But actually I've never built a gun from scratch so I find it cool when people build whatever they want. Good luck with it:-)

Thanks, I've heard something similar before but for a hand made gun I just think it's difficult to guarantee stuff like band friction etc.. there are just so many factors involved with every little part of the gun. I have a rear handle 110 with 2 small ID bands that I built previously and while I think it's a great gun I don't think I'd shoot a wahoo with it as-is. Might be able to tie in 1 or 2 more bands and try it.
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:43 AM   #9
Diving Gecko
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Re: Planning New Bluewater Roller Build - 1 or 2 bands?

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Originally Posted by Hpwatson View Post
Thanks, I've heard something similar before but for a hand made gun I just think it's difficult to guarantee stuff like band friction etc.. there are just so many factors involved with every little part of the gun. I have a rear handle 110 with 2 small ID bands that I built previously and while I think it's a great gun I don't think I'd shoot a wahoo with it as-is. Might be able to tie in 1 or 2 more bands and try it.
That makes sense. I had read page after page on the glory of Abellan guns and when I first saw one in real life I was, even though prepared for it, I was slightly underwhelmed. Simply because it doesn't look as great as it shoots. Not much bling factor. But, like other great guns, I guess it is the result of years of fine tuning where these little things have eventually been done right. Get some of them wrong and you loose performance.
Now, don't get me wrong, I am not slamming the gun - there's beauty in simplicity and form over function and it's still a hell of a lot prettier than, say, a Riffe;-)
That the gun scared the shit out of me when shooting it (it was the biggest Albacore) is a different matter;-)
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:45 AM   #10
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Re: Planning New Bluewater Roller Build - 1 or 2 bands?

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Originally Posted by Diving Gecko View Post
Hate to say it, but if you are to trust Majd's testing, which I personally do, it seems a well designed two-banded classic gun (very high ergo handle, no ET, no band friction, good trigger) running small ID bands would even be worth looking into over a single roller.

But actually I've never built a gun from scratch so I find it cool when people build whatever they want. Good luck with it:-)
This is a great option too!!

There are actually less factors in making a good standard gun and you can have great performance.

Select the shaft. 7.5mm or 8mm would be good for the range you need.
Select the Mech - Double roller mech for sure
Reduce shaft friction by using a shallow track.
Reduce band friction by routing a little deeper where bands need to run and ensuring the track is elevated.
Ensure excellent shaft and mech alignment for shaft stability when shot.
Ensure handle is high and shaped to hand with good grip.
Give the gun a little extra volume to be sure.
Don't overpower it. 2 14mm low ID bands at high stretch. Perhaps 3 with an 8mm shaft but probably not.
Use a quality shaft. Check spearq videos.

No matter what you do, standard or inverted roller, these things will need to be done well in order to ensure the gun shoots well at range.

Good luck
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Old 08-09-2018, 02:45 AM   #11
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Re: Planning New Bluewater Roller Build - 1 or 2 bands?

A roller and an invert roller are completely different gun designs and work differently. A simple roller basically just adds band stretch to a gun design by using the bottom part of the gun as extra length. Of course the roller has some losses due to the roller itself and for the bands having navigate through the roller. With an invert roller the concept is different, the bands contract horizontally and the only thing that has to go around the roller is the line ... obviously the line has a much smaller profile than a band and thus the losses due to having to navigate through the roller are much less. The problem is that since the band stretch area is much less with an IR (half the typical gun band stretch) several bands on the bottom are needed to compensate for the shorter band stretch. The advantage of the IR though is that although the distance of band stretch on the bottom is less, on the top side the wishbone will be travelling the distance on top at double the speed.

With any gun design the most important thing is not how the shaft gets its velocity, it is how the shaft reacts to the velocity it gets. For the shaft to perform well it has to fly stable and straight. Any oscillation in the shaft will cause very quick dissipation of shaft velocity (and accuracy). Adding power to a shaft that is not flying straight just causes more instability and quicker loss of shaft velocity. That is why adding a roller head to a speargun with a low handle will get much more impressive results than say a well designed high handled classic speargun. Also ... just like classic guns don't all perform the same, the same goes for roller guns. Proper design and setup is probably even more critical with a roller or IR than with classic guns.
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Old 08-09-2018, 03:43 PM   #12
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Re: Planning New Bluewater Roller Build - 1 or 2 bands?

I'm considering the swap to an inverted roller before I get any further into this build, I know they have big advantages in certain areas, but what thoughts are there on double roller guns? Can a 110 double roller kill a 200lb fish if it's set up properly?
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:47 AM   #13
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Re: Planning New Bluewater Roller Build - 1 or 2 bands?

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Originally Posted by Hpwatson View Post
I'm considering the swap to an inverted roller before I get any further into this build, I know they have big advantages in certain areas, but what thoughts are there on double roller guns? Can a 110 double roller kill a 200lb fish if it's set up properly?
Killing a 200lb fish can be done with even an 82cm gun with the right conditions, so I don't consider it a good metric for gun performance. If you want the maximum power you can get in the footprint of a 110 gun, then that would be different. I have tried out many different roller and invert roller setups and I am still not convinced that they offer a performance advantage over a classic setup. Certainly not with the larger gun sizes ... at least not the guns I have tested. I know this tends to cause a lot of uproar and I get flamed for posting this, but I am simply relaying my test data. I do think that rollers and invert rollers are still not performing to their maximum potential and they can still be improved. The big advantage of rollers is that they reduce felt recoil and for many people that is something that makes them feasible. But then again, if you shape your handle correctly and set it high up with a classic setup then recoil is also a non issue. The best performing invert roller guns I have tried were the Roisub ... and for good reason. They have a stopper on the muzzle that stops the wishbone parallel to the shaft ... this allows you to pack power without having to suffer the dreaded "shaft flip" with other roller designs. But ... although the gun shoots well ... I am still not sure it can out perform a classic setup even in the 110 size. One huge disadvantage of that gun though is the complicated setup. Once you load one of those guns and look at all the bands and lines and line detours ... I mean it is certainly not for everyone. Or at least not for someone that already thinks there is too much going on with even a 2 banded classic setup.

I do have a plan to test out all this in a 110 setup soon. I have the best possible invert roller setup and the best normal roller setup ... and plan to compare the performance against a simple classic setup. All using same line and same shaft and all with their performance maxed out. First I need to find the correct crash helmet to put on just in case the test results don't go according to some people's expectations.
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:55 AM   #14
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Re: Planning New Bluewater Roller Build - 1 or 2 bands?

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...First I need to find the correct crash helmet to put on just in case the test results don't go according to some people's expectations.
Wrong.

First you need to put on a football helmet right before starting to load bands on those guns just in case something lets go and smacks you right across the face.

I like tinkering, I am an engineer, and while I don't consider inverted rollers complicated, I do consider them a bit of a hassle to handle underwater for MY kind of fishing. If I was to shoot twice or three times per day... well, I might consider them.... but it is not the case!
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Old 08-10-2018, 10:14 AM   #15
Nix
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Re: Planning New Bluewater Roller Build - 1 or 2 bands?

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Or at least not for someone that already thinks there is too much going on with even a 2 banded classic setup.
This is interesting, since I've been thinking a lot about how to maximize performance with 1 band. I know the principles are the same, I just need to try a variety of bands and shafts now.
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